MLB 2025 Season

imalive wrote:

Cliffy6745 wrote:

Man, Verducci can be such a great writer and then he goes and says things like this. This is just outrageous.


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/w ... lot/1.html

I didn't read the link, but what's "outrageous"? I'm 99% sure bagwell was a juicer but he, and others, probably will make the HOF while other "poster boys" (i.e. bonds) will be held out by sanctimonious hypocritical voters.

yeah, bonds, mcgwire, and clemens should all be first ballot guys

The Fixer wrote:

Cliffy6745 wrote:

Man, Verducci can be such a great writer and then he goes and says things like this. This is just outrageous.


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/w ... lot/1.html


Jeff Bagwell: He should eventually get in, but his first-year support will be interesting to watch. Bagwell's numbers look worthy of Cooperstown, but he has been tied to steroid speculation enough that he "defended" himself in an ESPN.com interview last month. His defense? "I have no problem" with a guy juicing up, he said. To take such a position today is wildly irresponsible. It also invites the very talk that Bagwell claimed to be "sick and tired of."

Bagwell was an admitted Andro user who hired a competitive bodybuilder to make him as big as he could be, who claimed, McGwire-like, that Andro "doesn't help you hit home runs," who went from a prospect with "no pop" to massively changing his body and outhomering all but six big leaguers in the 13 seasons before steroid penalties (Ken Griffey Jr. and five connected to steroids: Bonds, Sosa, Rafael Palmeiro, Mark McGwire and Juan Gonzalez), and who condones the use of steroids -- but said, "I never used."

This HOF stuff can get real annoying. Last week alone on espn.com there were 3 pro-HOF article cases made for bagwell, larry walker, and blyleven. According to them everyone should be in the HOF

Yeah, there has been a lot in the last week. Hardball Talk posted this ESPN ballot yesterday:

Jack Morris, Edgar Martinez, Don Mattingly, Tino Martinez, and BJ Surhoff.

And get this, ESPN, basically the TMZ of sports has 18, yes 18 Hall of Fame voters.

Alomar and Byleven it is. I can live with that.

Cliffy6745 wrote:

Alomar and Byleven it is. I can live with that.

yeah, I think they are both deserving. Raines and Larkin are the two others that stand out for me. And I think those that don't vote for mcgwire are wrong...he should be a no brainer

Cliffy6745 wrote:

It's outrageous because the guy was never tied to steroids in any way. He is as guilty as Jeter except he hit homeruns. Why are you so positive?

well, he didn't get in :roll:

I'm not "positive" JB was on the juice. But I'm pretty damn close. He played on a team which, in my mind, had nearly the "steroid culture" as their neighbors in arlington. teammates included caminiti, incaviglia, luis gonzales, clemens and others. of those, only gonzales is a "maybe," to me. JB went from skinny to huge and back to skinny right after they began testing. kinda like pudge. I could link to to all kinds of "bagwell was a user" conspiracy theory blogs, but I won't - those blogs present compelling evidence but don't prove anything.

my beef has always been that the guys we were told (by the media) were doing it the "right way" (arod, palmerio, etc.) turned out to be juicers. I just say, FORGET STEROIDS and let the numbers speak for themselves. guys will NEVER admit to being users, so quit guessing (as Verducci did) and let the numbers decide. all I know is, my guy bonds was the BEST steroid user ever and should be in the HOF.... because there is not doubt in my mind other users will slip in. if they haven't already. Ricky???

imalive wrote:

Cliffy6745 wrote:

It's outrageous because the guy was never tied to steroids in any way. He is as guilty as Jeter except he hit homeruns. Why are you so positive?

well, he didn't get in :roll:

I'm not "positive" JB was on the juice. But I'm pretty damn close. He played on a team which, in my mind, had nearly the "steroid culture" as their neighbors in arlington. teammates included caminiti, incaviglia, luis gonzales, clemens and others. of those, only gonzales is a "maybe," to me. JB went from skinny to huge and back to skinny right after they began testing. kinda like pudge. I could link to to all kinds of "bagwell was a user" conspiracy theory blogs, but I won't - those blogs present compelling evidence but don't prove anything.

my beef has always been that the guys we were told (by the media) were doing it the "right way" (arod, palmerio, etc.) turned out to be juicers. I just say, FORGET STEROIDS and let the numbers speak for themselves. guys will NEVER admit to being users, so quit guessing (as Verducci did) and let the numbers decide. all I know is, my guy bonds was the BEST steroid user ever and should be in the HOF.... because there is not doubt in my mind other users will slip in. if they haven't already. Ricky???

Dude, I agree with all of this completely. My point was, you can't keep a guy out of the hall that you assume took steroids because of a bunch of theories and no real evidence.

I have always said I could give a fuck about steroids and everyone should get in based on their stats. I am with you on all of this. My point just was, it's not fair and absurd to keep Bagwell out because of assumptions.

Cliffy6745 wrote:

imalive wrote:

Cliffy6745 wrote:

It's outrageous because the guy was never tied to steroids in any way. He is as guilty as Jeter except he hit homeruns. Why are you so positive?

well, he didn't get in :roll:

I'm not "positive" JB was on the juice. But I'm pretty damn close. He played on a team which, in my mind, had nearly the "steroid culture" as their neighbors in arlington. teammates included caminiti, incaviglia, luis gonzales, clemens and others. of those, only gonzales is a "maybe," to me. JB went from skinny to huge and back to skinny right after they began testing. kinda like pudge. I could link to to all kinds of "bagwell was a user" conspiracy theory blogs, but I won't - those blogs present compelling evidence but don't prove anything.

my beef has always been that the guys we were told (by the media) were doing it the "right way" (arod, palmerio, etc.) turned out to be juicers. I just say, FORGET STEROIDS and let the numbers speak for themselves. guys will NEVER admit to being users, so quit guessing (as Verducci did) and let the numbers decide. all I know is, my guy bonds was the BEST steroid user ever and should be in the HOF.... because there is not doubt in my mind other users will slip in. if they haven't already. Ricky???

Dude, I agree with all of this completely. My point was, you can't keep a guy out of the hall that you assume took steroids because of a bunch of theories and no real evidence.

I have always said I could give a fuck about steroids and everyone should get in based on their stats. I am with you on all of this. My point just was, it's not fair and absurd to keep Bagwell out because of assumptions.

true....I guess in a nutshell my feeling is it's no more fair to say (of anyone) "we know he took steroids" than it is to say "we know he didn't take steroids" (griffey). everyone labels sosa as a user (me, included) but I'm not really sure what we're seeing as "proof." :?

it's convoluted....I'm with you...let 'em in.

The Fixer wrote:

imalive wrote:

true....I guess in a nutshell my feeling is it's no more fair to say (of anyone) "we know he took steroids" than it is to say "we know he didn't take steroids" (griffey). everyone labels sosa as a user (me, included) but I'm not really sure what we're seeing as "proof." :?

it's convoluted....I'm with you...let 'em in.

I'm pretty sure that sosa is one of the few guys that was actually caught with roids. And of course he got caught with a corked bat. he's the ultimate scumbag

And he's white now.

Anybody planning on going to the induction in Cooperstown this year? We're undecided at this point.

asterisk.