DNA test casts doubt on executed man's guilt

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  • Tell that to Allen Hilzendager's children and family.
    "...And I fight back in my mind. Never lets me be right.
    I got memories. I got shit so much it don't show."
  • :|
    Boo Boo wrote:
    Tell that to Allen Hilzendager's children and family.
    Gimli 1993
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  • Boo Boo wrote:
    Tell that to Allen Hilzendager's children and family.
    Horrible case. But what does killing the guilty accomplish? Lock them up, keep them away from society.
    Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
  • ed243421
    ed243421 Posts: 7,756
    Boo Boo wrote:
    Tell that to Allen Hilzendager's children and family.
    Horrible case. But what does killing the guilty accomplish? Lock them up, keep them away from society.


    please explain

    if executing the guilty accomplishes nothing
    then what does locking them up do?
    The whole world will be different soon... - EV
    RED ROCKS 6-19-95
    AUGUSTA 9-26-96
    MANSFIELD 9-15-98
    BOSTON 9-29-04
    BOSTON 5-25-06
    MANSFIELD 6-30-08
    EV SOLO BOSTON 8-01-08
    BOSTON 5-17-10
    EV SOLO BOSTON 6-16-11
    PJ20 9-3-11
    PJ20 9-4-11
    WRIGLEY 7-19-13
    WORCESTER 10-15-13
    WORCESTER 10-16-13
    HARTFORD 10-25-13









  • gimmesometruth27
    gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 24,874
    edited November 2010
    Boo Boo wrote:
    Tell that to Allen Hilzendager's children and family.
    what does that have to do with executing an innocent person? my point in this thread was to demonstrate that the system is flawed, and if an innocent person gets executed then that penalty should be eliminated.

    http://www.time.com/time/nation/article ... newsletter

    DNA Testing Casts Doubt on Texas Man's Execution

    For over two decades, the hair was stored in a plastic evidence bag in the courthouse in Coldspring, Texas, cataloged as belonging to Claude Jones, who was convicted of murder in 1990 and executed 10 years later. Now, it can be relabeled: a court-ordered DNA test found Thursday that the hair actually belonged to the murder victim Allen Hilzendager. The result casts significant doubt on the validity of Jones' conviction and his execution.

    That single 1-in. (2.5 cm) strand of hair was the key to Jones' original conviction. A truck carrying Jones and Danny Dixon did pull up in front of Hilzendager's liquor store that night. One man got out, went inside and gunned Hilzendager down, according to two eyewitnesses across the highway (neither could see the murderer's face). Both Jones and Dixon were certainly capable of the crime — both were on parole after serving time for murder. But there was little other firm evidence of which one had done it. Dixon accused Jones, and Jones accused Dixon. The prosecution's star witness against Jones was a friend of Dixon's who later said that prosecutors had coerced him into testifying.

    And from the beginning, the evidence was handled questionably. The hair expert at the Texas crime lab originally thought the small sample was "unsuitable for comparison" using the microscopy technology available at the time, but eventually changed his mind and decided to test it after all. Using that outdated technology — which essentially has two hairs examined side by side under a microscope — the expert then determined that the hair belonged to Jones and not Dixon.

    That dubious determination went on to haunt all of Jones' failed appeals as well. Time and again, lawyers and judges pointed to the physical evidence against Jones as a damning factor.

    Except, in the end, it wasn't. The fact that the hair was actually Hilzendager's doesn't mean that Jones was necessarily innocent, but it does mean that the jury convicted him — and did so quickly — based largely on false evidence. "What's crucial to understand is that the hair was critical evidence in the case," says Barry Scheck, whose Innocence Project, along with the Texas Observer, led the lawsuit demanding that the hair be subjected to DNA testing. "I have no doubt the conviction would've been reversed with these results."

    Scheck points out the most poignant aspect of the story: Jones came very close to having a chance for that reversal just before he was executed. At the time, then Governor George W. Bush was on record stating that he would delay executions if there were relevant new DNA tests that could be performed. Jones' case seemed to fit that bill — mitochondrial DNA testing was not available during his trial but was in wide use before his final appeals in 2000. Jones' attorney at the time warned the Texas Board of Pardons and Paroles that without Bush's intervention, "the state of Texas runs the risk of executing a man despite the availability of modern technology that might exonerate him."

    The four-page memo that Bush received from his legal advisers on Dec. 7, 2000, however, made no mention of a possible new DNA test. It ended with the assertion that Jones "has had full and fair access to judicial review of his case." Bush denied clemency, and Jones was executed that evening.

    "What I'm really hoping is that when President Bush gets an opportunity to look at this," says Scheck, "that he would acknowledge that he was blindsided and that an error was made."

    The new DNA results come during a rough patch for capital punishment in Texas. After 18 years in prison — 12 of those on death row — Anthony Graves was exonerated and walked free in October based on the opinion of a special independent prosecutor who found in favor of a 2006 reversal (stemming from a lack of evidence) of his conviction. That case, in which Graves was convicted of slaughtering a family he didn't know based on the testimony of informants and co-defendants, had one striking similarity with the Jones case: the original prosecutors fought fiercely against any suggestions that the convictions might be invalid. As doubts over the evidence that had convicted Graves swirled in 2009, prosecutor Charles Sebesta took out full-page ads in local papers calling Graves "cold-blooded."

    In Jones' case, prosecutor Bill Burnett fought hard to destroy the hair before it could be tested, and he took his fight all the way to his grave. The pastor at his funeral in June assailed TIME's coverage of the Jones case, in which I had argued in favor of testing, and lauded Burnett for being someone who "took a stand against some powerful people."

    After the evidence findings were revealed Thursday, Hilzendager's brother Joe told the Associated Press that he still thinks Jones was the shooter, staying true to what he had told me in his living room almost a year ago, as he argued against testing the hair: "There's no doubt they executed the right person."

    But Jones' son Duane has always believed his father was wrongfully convicted. He says the results aren't a relief and that it's just "disappointing" to see the missed opportunities for justice.

    "It saddens me because you know they spend all the taxpayers' money fighting DNA tests," he says. "If you're so confident in your convictions, do the testing. You might find out something new."
    Post edited by gimmesometruth27 on
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • protecting society. you don't need to kill them to accomplish that.
    ed243421 wrote:
    Boo Boo wrote:
    Tell that to Allen Hilzendager's children and family.
    Horrible case. But what does killing the guilty accomplish? Lock them up, keep them away from society.


    please explain

    if executing the guilty accomplishes nothing
    then what does locking them up do?
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,962
    How come no one sees that this guy was a murderer BEFORE the supposed incident? He got a life sentence and was released and either killed someone else or played a large role in it.

    So I understand those that are against the dealth penalty in all cases, but to worry about this known convicted murder...it's a bit of a stretch.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • you don't execute someone based on past crimes. that's a very dangerous idea.
    How come no one sees that this guy was a murderer BEFORE the supposed incident? He got a life sentence and was released and either killed someone else or played a large role in it.

    So I understand those that are against the dealth penalty in all cases, but to worry about this known convicted murder...it's a bit of a stretch.
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,962
    Paul David wrote:
    you don't execute someone based on past crimes. that's a very dangerous idea.
    How come no one sees that this guy was a murderer BEFORE the supposed incident? He got a life sentence and was released and either killed someone else or played a large role in it.

    So I understand those that are against the dealth penalty in all cases, but to worry about this known convicted murder...it's a bit of a stretch.


    That isn't what I meant.

    What I mean is, this isn't the guy to use as the example for the death penalty, because if he had been sentenced to death after his first murder, none of this would have ever happened.

    I'm surprised this isn't being used by death penalty supporters.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • gimmesometruth27
    gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 24,874
    Paul David wrote:
    you don't execute someone based on past crimes. that's a very dangerous idea.
    How come no one sees that this guy was a murderer BEFORE the supposed incident? He got a life sentence and was released and either killed someone else or played a large role in it.

    So I understand those that are against the dealth penalty in all cases, but to worry about this known convicted murder...it's a bit of a stretch.


    That isn't what I meant.

    What I mean is, this isn't the guy to use as the example for the death penalty, because if he had been sentenced to death after his first murder, none of this would have ever happened.

    I'm surprised this isn't being used by death penalty supporters.
    still, if the dna in this case does not match, he could not have killed the clerk, so he was executed for the wrong crime, which makes this exponentially more wrong. and you can not argue that if he had the death sentence in the first trial that he would have been executed. he might still be on death row on appeal. it is just speculation because you do not know how the courts would have ruled. nobody knows that.
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • ed243421
    ed243421 Posts: 7,756
    gimme

    maybe i'm reading it wrong but
    nothing in this article says he was proven innocent
    and he should not have been executed without absolute proof
    chalk up another gem for gw bush and his team


    The single hair had been the only piece of physical evidence linking Claude Jones to the crime scene. But the DNA analysis found it did not belong to Jones and instead may have come from the murder victim.

    this does not say he did not do it or was not there
    The whole world will be different soon... - EV
    RED ROCKS 6-19-95
    AUGUSTA 9-26-96
    MANSFIELD 9-15-98
    BOSTON 9-29-04
    BOSTON 5-25-06
    MANSFIELD 6-30-08
    EV SOLO BOSTON 8-01-08
    BOSTON 5-17-10
    EV SOLO BOSTON 6-16-11
    PJ20 9-3-11
    PJ20 9-4-11
    WRIGLEY 7-19-13
    WORCESTER 10-15-13
    WORCESTER 10-16-13
    HARTFORD 10-25-13









  • so you think it was right to execute him based on no evidence saying he WASN'T guilty of the crime???!!!!
    ed243421 wrote:
    gimme

    maybe i'm reading it wrong but
    nothing in this article says he was proven innocent
    and he should not have been executed without absolute proof
    chalk up another gem for gw bush and his team


    The single hair had been the only piece of physical evidence linking Claude Jones to the crime scene. But the DNA analysis found it did not belong to Jones and instead may have come from the murder victim.

    this does not say he did not do it or was not there
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • gimmesometruth27
    gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 24,874
    ed243421 wrote:
    gimme

    maybe i'm reading it wrong but
    nothing in this article says he was proven innocent
    and he should not have been executed without absolute proof
    chalk up another gem for gw bush and his team


    The single hair had been the only piece of physical evidence linking Claude Jones to the crime scene. But the DNA analysis found it did not belong to Jones and instead may have come from the murder victim.

    this does not say he did not do it or was not there
    he was not proven innocent, rather the evidence should have proven him "not guilty", and "not guilty" and "innocent" are two entirely different matters. i am appalled that people can say that even though the hair did not match his, he deserves to be executed for this crime that he could or could not have committed... it sounds like there is a reasonable doubt in this case, and you can not convict, let alone execute someone if there is a reasonable doubt as to whether or not they committed the crime. they said the hair was his, dna proves otherwise.
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,962
    How does someone serving a "life sentence" who then lights his cellmate on fire, killing him, ever get out of jail?

    Who thought that sounded like a good idea? Who thought that would end up with the guy being a productive member of society?
    hippiemom = goodness
  • ed243421
    ed243421 Posts: 7,756
    Paul David wrote:
    so you think it was right to execute him based on no evidence saying he WASN'T guilty of the crime???!!!!
    ed243421 wrote:
    gimme

    maybe i'm reading it wrong but
    nothing in this article says he was proven innocent
    and he should not have been executed without absolute proof
    chalk up another gem for gw bush and his team


    The single hair had been the only piece of physical evidence linking Claude Jones to the crime scene. But the DNA analysis found it did not belong to Jones and instead may have come from the murder victim.

    this does not say he did not do it or was not there

    please read what i said
    i said he should not have been executed
    The whole world will be different soon... - EV
    RED ROCKS 6-19-95
    AUGUSTA 9-26-96
    MANSFIELD 9-15-98
    BOSTON 9-29-04
    BOSTON 5-25-06
    MANSFIELD 6-30-08
    EV SOLO BOSTON 8-01-08
    BOSTON 5-17-10
    EV SOLO BOSTON 6-16-11
    PJ20 9-3-11
    PJ20 9-4-11
    WRIGLEY 7-19-13
    WORCESTER 10-15-13
    WORCESTER 10-16-13
    HARTFORD 10-25-13









  • ed243421
    ed243421 Posts: 7,756
    ed243421 wrote:
    gimme

    maybe i'm reading it wrong but
    nothing in this article says he was proven innocent
    and he should not have been executed without absolute proof
    chalk up another gem for gw bush and his team


    The single hair had been the only piece of physical evidence linking Claude Jones to the crime scene. But the DNA analysis found it did not belong to Jones and instead may have come from the murder victim.

    this does not say he did not do it or was not there
    he was not proven innocent, rather the evidence should have proven him "not guilty", and "not guilty" and "innocent" are two entirely different matters. i am appalled that people can say that even though the hair did not match his, he deserves to be executed for this crime that he could or could not have committed... it sounds like there is a reasonable doubt in this case, and you can not convict, let alone execute someone if there is a reasonable doubt as to whether or not they committed the crime. they said the hair was his, dna proves otherwise.

    gimme
    did you say the evidence proves him not guilty?
    because it does not do that
    all it proves is that the hair was not his
    he still could have been the murderer
    and i have said several times that he should not have been executed
    The whole world will be different soon... - EV
    RED ROCKS 6-19-95
    AUGUSTA 9-26-96
    MANSFIELD 9-15-98
    BOSTON 9-29-04
    BOSTON 5-25-06
    MANSFIELD 6-30-08
    EV SOLO BOSTON 8-01-08
    BOSTON 5-17-10
    EV SOLO BOSTON 6-16-11
    PJ20 9-3-11
    PJ20 9-4-11
    WRIGLEY 7-19-13
    WORCESTER 10-15-13
    WORCESTER 10-16-13
    HARTFORD 10-25-13









  • my bad. you're right, I misread it.
    ed243421 wrote:
    Paul David wrote:
    so you think it was right to execute him based on no evidence saying he WASN'T guilty of the crime???!!!!
    ed243421 wrote:
    gimme

    maybe i'm reading it wrong but
    nothing in this article says he was proven innocent
    and he should not have been executed without absolute proof
    chalk up another gem for gw bush and his team


    The single hair had been the only piece of physical evidence linking Claude Jones to the crime scene. But the DNA analysis found it did not belong to Jones and instead may have come from the murder victim.

    this does not say he did not do it or was not there

    please read what i said
    i said he should not have been executed
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • without the hair, there was nothing else linking him to the murder, so yes, not guilty would have been ther verdict. No one is saying if he was actually innocent or not. we don't know. all we're saying is the same as you, that he should not have been executed.
    ed243421 wrote:
    gimme
    did you say the evidence proves him not guilty?
    because it does not do that
    all it proves is that the hair was not his
    he still could have been the murderer
    and i have said several times that he should not have been executed
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • gimmesometruth27
    gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 24,874
    ^^^

    exactly. without the hair there is reasonable doubt, and with reasonable doubt you can not convict, so the verdict would have had to have been not guilty.
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • How does someone serving a "life sentence" who then lights his cellmate on fire, killing him, ever get out of jail?

    Who thought that sounded like a good idea? Who thought that would end up with the guy being a productive member of society?

    I'm with you on that one. He didn't really come across like a prime candidate to be reintroduced into society.
    And I listen for the voice inside my head... nothing. I'll do this one myself.