Bush's torture admission is a dismal moment for democracy
Comments
-
OnTheEdge wrote:lettinggo wrote:OnTheEdge wrote:SADAAM HUSSEIN HIMSELF IS/WAS A WEAPON OF MASS DESTRUCTION!!!!!!!!!!
as were the bush-cheney-rumsfeld trio comico
inflicting mass destruction on iraqi innocents and our own people
and we're still in afghanistan leaving wakes of destruction and have made very little progress in reigning in this problem
and bin laden? still can't find him
we cannot match the fervor with which these people fight
yet we continue
the end is nowhere near in sight and the mass destruction will continue.
I'm only going to guess that haven't done very much research on S.H.
me?
i agree he was a weapon of mass destruction
no argument here
so were the buck passing bush, cheney, rumsfeld . . .fuck 'em if they can't take a joke
"what a long, strange trip it's been"0 -
what life threatening information have they ever got from torture. can you back that up? even if you can, it's still a bullshit excuse to condone torture.Electric_Delta wrote:If lives are at stake, why not extract the information however necessary? It's absurd to put lives in jeopardy because we might hurt someone's "feelings."
when you see the fundamental values of the nation being assaulted, and when you see your moral authority slipping away, how on earth can you stay silent about their reuplsive actions. how can you defend that?
under a 1994 UN convention, torture means "any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted" to obtain information.
the convention has been ratified by 136 countries including the US. the UN explicitly banned torture after the second world war, when its general assembly included a prohibition against torture in the landmark universal declaration of human rights. Article 5 states: "No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment."
there is no excuse for torture. none at all.0 -
Cosmo wrote:
...Godfather. wrote:cosmo ! I'm shocked :shock: ...and hurt
those are some horrible things to say about anybody, you should be ashamed of your self,you seem to be well versed in moronic statements...hay you practice don't you..cheater 
does your momma know you post this kind of stuff ? I'll bet she wouldn't be very happy with you buster !
Godfather.
Once again... I have no idea what you are talking about. I must admit... it has been many years since I have been on the schoolyard so I have to apologise for not being very adept in infantile speak.
I'm just saying... if you want people to quit whining and crying about Bush... you should do the same and quit whinninhg and crying about Obama.
if I never posted another thing about nobama do you think the bush bashing would stop ?
I doubt it because everybody needs to point the finger at somebody even if it does not matter anymore,
he's out he's history but instead of moving forward everybody looks back and points, but as you wish I will agree to your proposal, and don't sell your self short your great at infantile speak,your the best !
Godfather.0 -
Saddam Hussein was a terrible man. just horribe.OnTheEdge wrote:SADAAM HUSSEIN HIMSELF IS/WAS A WEAPON OF MASS DESTRUCTION!!!!!!!!!!
someone asked this in another thread and it was ignored.
do you think GWB deserves the same end to his life as Hussein for all his crimes against humanity? how about all of the innocent lives he snuffed out for the greater American good?0 -
TriumphantAngel wrote:
Saddam Hussein was a terrible man. just horribe.OnTheEdge wrote:SADAAM HUSSEIN HIMSELF IS/WAS A WEAPON OF MASS DESTRUCTION!!!!!!!!!!
someone asked this in another thread and it was ignored.
do you think GWB deserves the same end to his life as Hussein for all his crimes against humanity? how about all of the innocent lives he snuffed out for the greater American good?
War is a terible thing. Innocent lives get taken. That is war. Bush was nothing like Saddam. Saddam was an evil dictator. Bush was not. Now if Bush had a State of the Union Adress and called democratic names one by one that were against his policies, had them led outside to be shot, then yes, or if Bush dumped chemicals on millions of people simply because of their beliefes, then yes again,I would say he deserves the same fate as Saddam.
I don't believe Bush has any mass graves full of charred bodies hidden at the ranch. And I don't believe Bush would ever torture young children forcing the childs parents to watch. I hold no qualms with Bush when it comes to removing Saddam Hussein from the planet earth.
Sorry, I really should have put more thought into this before posting. I keep having to edit to add more. But how has anything in Iraq served for the greater American good. In the long run it will be a better Iraq. I think long term, very long from now, when we are dead and gone, Iraq will be a better place because of Bush.Post edited by OnTheEdge on0 -
TriumphantAngel wrote:
Saddam Hussein was a terrible man. just horribe.OnTheEdge wrote:SADAAM HUSSEIN HIMSELF IS/WAS A WEAPON OF MASS DESTRUCTION!!!!!!!!!!
someone asked this in another thread and it was ignored.
do you think GWB deserves the same end to his life as Hussein for all his crimes against humanity? how about all of the innocent lives he snuffed out for the greater American good?
.....and Tony Blair0 -
dude what is with you acting like a 10 year old today? you have really been talking a lot of trash to alot of people, and really not contributing to the discussion other than lobbing insults and basically playing around. you are 50 years old, and acting like that really damages your credibility. and i am saying that as someone who used to respect your opinions and positions. i did not agree often but i understood what you were saying. what you are doing today is really not furthering the discussion in any meaningful way.Godfather. wrote:eyedclaar wrote:Godfather. wrote:so thats a no on the write in ballot I guess.......you're a democrat....I seeee.
have a nice day young lady.
Godfather.
It doesn’t take a democrat to see through your transparent and juvenile bullshit. Hell, a retarded cave fish isn’t so blind that it couldn’t. You are all talk. ya know what..this is the most fun I've had in a while you sound like a confused young lady
in a train station trying to get home....auntie M there's no place like home there's no place like home
where's Toto ?
Godfather.
and i will say it again, bush should face charges for crimes against humanity and breaking international law by waging aggressive war and authorizing use of torture as a matter of procedure. how anyone can defend him in this situation is completely beyond me."You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."0 -
0
-
i stand up for human rights over all laws.OnTheEdge wrote:This quote is really disturbing to me. Why is it Gimmie you never have a problem standing up for the enemy and can never stand tall and proud for our own troops. The torture in guan bothers you more then the torture fo our own troops. :?
the difference between you and me is that you see torture of our troops as bad. i see all torture as bad. i view our troops as invaders of a foreign land, breaking international law. they know the risks of what can happen to them, and they were willing participants in breaking international law and waging aggressive war. if the taliban catches and tortures our guys it is not the afghan government, but a rogue terrorist organization who is not bound by international law.
i feel that locking up people who may or may not have been enemy combatants in gitmo without charges and my government, who IS bounf by international law torturing the shit out of them is dead wrong."You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."0 -
...Godfather. wrote:if I never posted another thing about nobama do you think the bush bashing would stop ?
I doubt it because everybody needs to point the finger at somebody even if it does not matter anymore,
he's out he's history but instead of moving forward everybody looks back and points, but as you wish I will agree to your proposal, and don't sell your self short your great at infantile speak,your the best !
Godfather.
But, that is the problem... you HAVE been whinning and crying about Obama. So, it makes it appear that you are either being hypocritical or you are too stupid to know what you are saying. Which is it?
As for Bush... It DOES matter because he is the one who is responsible for creating the situations we are facing today. I find it hard that you cannot comprehend this.
Let me try to put it in the simplest of examples...
Let's say, you buy a car. The previous owner puts battery acid in the gas tank.
You are the one who owns it now... so, yes, you have to fix it. Does that mean you are the one responsible for the current condition of the car?
What you are telling me... is that you would not hold the seller responsible for his actions... simply becase he no longer owns the car. I that how you see it? Is that how you define 'responsibility'?Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!0 -
gimmesometruth27 wrote:
i stand up for human rights over all laws.OnTheEdge wrote:This quote is really disturbing to me. Why is it Gimmie you never have a problem standing up for the enemy and can never stand tall and proud for our own troops. The torture in guan bothers you more then the torture fo our own troops. :?
the difference between you and me is that you see torture of our troops as bad. i see all torture as bad. i view our troops as invaders of a foreign land, breaking international law. they know the risks of what can happen to them, and they were willing participants in breaking international law and waging aggressive war. if the taliban catches and tortures our guys it is not the afghan government, but a rogue terrorist organization who is not bound by international law.
i feel that locking up people who may or may not have been enemy combatants in gitmo without charges and my government, who IS bounf by international law torturing the shit out of them is dead wrong.
OK, understood. But you could do a little more "terorist torturing american troops" bashing also.
0 -
OnTheEdge wrote:gimmesometruth27 wrote:
i stand up for human rights over all laws.OnTheEdge wrote:This quote is really disturbing to me. Why is it Gimmie you never have a problem standing up for the enemy and can never stand tall and proud for our own troops. The torture in guan bothers you more then the torture fo our own troops. :?
the difference between you and me is that you see torture of our troops as bad. i see all torture as bad. i view our troops as invaders of a foreign land, breaking international law. they know the risks of what can happen to them, and they were willing participants in breaking international law and waging aggressive war. if the taliban catches and tortures our guys it is not the afghan government, but a rogue terrorist organization who is not bound by international law.
i feel that locking up people who may or may not have been enemy combatants in gitmo without charges and my government, who IS bounf by international law torturing the shit out of them is dead wrong.
OK, understood. But you could do a little more "terorist torturing american troops" bashing also.
i will post where i feel it is applicable. over the last 7 years i have condemned the torturing of our troops as pows. but that is war. the people in gitmo and other black site prisons run by the cia, some even minors at the time of arrest have not even been formally charged or tried, they have had no due process. yet our government says it is ok to do unspeakable violence to them and violate their human rights. our government is CLEARLY in the wrong in this case, and i will not defend a government that completely ignores international law and wipes it's arse with the international treaties that it has signed and agreed to..."You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."0 -
OnTheEdge wrote:lettinggo wrote:OnTheEdge wrote:SADAAM HUSSEIN HIMSELF IS/WAS A WEAPON OF MASS DESTRUCTION!!!!!!!!!!
as were the bush-cheney-rumsfeld trio comico
inflicting mass destruction on iraqi innocents and our own people
and we're still in afghanistan leaving wakes of destruction and have made very little progress in reigning in this problem
and bin laden? still can't find him
we cannot match the fervor with which these people fight
yet we continue
the end is nowhere near in sight and the mass destruction will continue.
I'm only going to guess that you haven't done very much research on S.H.
again i will agree
that hussein was a weapon of mass destruction
again no argument here
but so were the buck passing b, c, r, . .
we are supposed to be better than that
bush used 9/11 as a segue into iraq
and i will never believe otherwisefuck 'em if they can't take a joke
"what a long, strange trip it's been"0 -
0 -
BinauralJam wrote:
fool me once
shame on you
fool me twice
uh uh uh uh
i'm flustrated now
we won't get fooled againfuck 'em if they can't take a joke
"what a long, strange trip it's been"0 -
Cosmo wrote:
...Godfather. wrote:if I never posted another thing about nobama do you think the bush bashing would stop ?
I doubt it because everybody needs to point the finger at somebody even if it does not matter anymore,
he's out he's history but instead of moving forward everybody looks back and points, but as you wish I will agree to your proposal, and don't sell your self short your great at infantile speak,your the best !
Godfather.
But, that is the problem... you HAVE been whinning and crying about Obama. So, it makes it appear that you are either being hypocritical or you are too stupid to know what you are saying. Which is it?
As for Bush... It DOES matter because he is the one who is responsible for creating the situations we are facing today. I find it hard that you cannot comprehend this.
Let me try to put it in the simplest of examples...
Let's say, you buy a car. The previous owner puts battery acid in the gas tank.
You are the one who owns it now... so, yes, you have to fix it. Does that mean you are the one responsible for the current condition of the car?
What you are telling me... is that you would not hold the seller responsible for his actions... simply becase he no longer owns the car. I that how you see it? Is that how you define 'responsibility'? anything you say old man
Godfather.0 -
...Godfather. wrote:Cosmo wrote:
...Godfather. wrote:if I never posted another thing about nobama do you think the bush bashing would stop ?
I doubt it because everybody needs to point the finger at somebody even if it does not matter anymore,
he's out he's history but instead of moving forward everybody looks back and points, but as you wish I will agree to your proposal, and don't sell your self short your great at infantile speak,your the best !
Godfather.
But, that is the problem... you HAVE been whinning and crying about Obama. So, it makes it appear that you are either being hypocritical or you are too stupid to know what you are saying. Which is it?
As for Bush... It DOES matter because he is the one who is responsible for creating the situations we are facing today. I find it hard that you cannot comprehend this.
Let me try to put it in the simplest of examples...
Let's say, you buy a car. The previous owner puts battery acid in the gas tank.
You are the one who owns it now... so, yes, you have to fix it. Does that mean you are the one responsible for the current condition of the car?
What you are telling me... is that you would not hold the seller responsible for his actions... simply becase he no longer owns the car. I that how you see it? Is that how you define 'responsibility'? anything you say old man
Godfather.
Great. I'm glad you cleared that up. You believe that you are responsible for things left behind by others. I guess you and I just have to agree that we have very differing views on personal responsibility.
peace...Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!0 -
Godfather. wrote:fu*kin A right,our country was attacked and Bush did what needed to be done,all you soft limp wristed people need to quit whinning and try standing up for your country ...just once !
Godfather.
Do you think the Iraqis were responsible for 9/11?0 -
Godfather. wrote:we're Americans,we don't take no crap ! God Bless America
Godfather.
"If we get chased out of Iraq with our tail between our legs, that will be the fifth consecutive Third-world country with no hint of a Navy or an Air Force to have whipped us in the past 40 years."
- Hunter S. Thompson0 -
Electric_Delta wrote:If lives are at stake, why not extract the information however necessary? It's absurd to put lives in jeopardy because we might hurt someone's "feelings."
'Torture may produce information, but it doesn't produce reliable information, as every experienced interrogator I have spoken with repeatedly tells me – on both sides of the Atlantic. It produces the information that the subject believes the interrogator wants to hear.'
- Philippe Sands
United Nations Convention Against Torture
The United Nations Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment (UNCAT) came into force in June 1987. The most relevant articles are Articles 1, 2, 3, and the first paragraph of Article 16.
Article 1
1. For the purposes of this Convention, the term "torture" means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.
2. This article is without prejudice to any international instrument or national legislation which does or may contain provisions of wider application.
Article 2
1. Each State Party shall take effective legislative, administrative, judicial or other measures to prevent acts of torture in any territory under its jurisdiction.
2. No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat of war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture.
3. An order from a superior officer or a public authority may not be invoked as a justification of torture.
Article 3
1. No State Party shall expel, return ("refouler") or extradite a person to another State where there are substantial grounds for believing that he would be in danger of being subjected to torture.
2. For the purpose of determining whether there are such grounds, the competent authorities shall take into account all relevant considerations including, where applicable, the existence in the State concerned of a consistent pattern of gross, flagrant or mass violations of human rights.
Article 16
1. Each State Party shall undertake to prevent in any territory under its jurisdiction other acts of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment which do not amount to torture as defined in article I, when such acts are committed by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. In particular, the obligations contained in articles 10, 11, 12 and 13 shall apply with the substitution for references to torture of references to other forms of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.0
Categories
- All Categories
- 149K Pearl Jam's Music and Activism
- 110.2K The Porch
- 279 Vitalogy
- 35.1K Given To Fly (live)
- 3.5K Words and Music...Communication
- 39.3K Flea Market
- 39.3K Lost Dogs
- 58.7K Not Pearl Jam's Music
- 10.6K Musicians and Gearheads
- 29.1K Other Music
- 17.8K Poetry, Prose, Music & Art
- 1.1K The Art Wall
- 56.8K Non-Pearl Jam Discussion
- 22.2K A Moving Train
- 31.7K All Encompassing Trip
- 2.9K Technical Stuff and Help