Hey Israel, leave them kids alone...

TriumphantAngel
TriumphantAngel Posts: 1,760
edited October 2010 in A Moving Train
all in all it's just another brick in the wall....

17538561.jpg

except it's not just any wall. it's part of the illegal ‘separation’ wall which has been built to isolate Palestinians.

the Palestinians get the stinky grey/black side while the Israelis get the pretty decorated side.

it's racist and it's illegal.

pull that shit down. assholes.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,962
    TriumphantAngel wrote:
    all in all it's just another brick in the wall....

    17538561.jpg

    except it's not just any wall. it's part of the illegal ‘separation’ wall which has been built to isolate Palestinians.

    the Palestinians get the stinky grey/black side while the Israelis get the pretty decorated side.

    it's racist and it's illegal.

    pull that shit down. assholes.


    It's ugly too...the "pretty decorated side" is worse, give me the gray.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,180
    There are many problems with the wall/barrier/fence, but it wasn't built to isolate Palestinians. It was built to keep suicide bombers from rolling out of bed and walking into Israel to murder people. I agree that the placement of the fence is in many instances problematic, but the fundamental motivation for the fence's construction was to save lives.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • TriumphantAngel
    TriumphantAngel Posts: 1,760
    yosi wrote:
    There are many problems with the wall/barrier/fence, but it wasn't built to isolate Palestinians. It was built to keep suicide bombers from rolling out of bed and walking into Israel to murder people. I agree that the placement of the fence is in many instances problematic, but the fundamental motivation for the fence's construction was to save lives.

    there has not been a suicide bombing in years Yosi. hundreds and hundreds of Palestinians have been killed in just the last couple of years alone because of Israeli Terrorism.

    but we've been over this a hundred times haven't we.

    you can't imprison an entire population of peoples because of the actions of a few.

    it's not right.

    you must be able to see that. surely.
  • gimmesometruth27
    gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 24,878
    this would be like walling off east st louis from st louis proper. you can't subjugate and improson an entire population for the actions of a few.

    i wonder what would happen if like in germany a large group of oppressed people came together to tear down this wall? will they be allowed to do it, or will there be a violent reprisal in effort to maintain it?

    there have been no suicide bombings in years, so the wall is unnecessary in that respect. the only reason it will be necessary in the future is if the israeli government does not change it's policies regarding the palestinians and the people that live there and they try to take matters into their own hands.
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • TriumphantAngel
    TriumphantAngel Posts: 1,760
    Israel has F-16 fighter planes and helicopter gun ships. the Palestinians have guns and home made rockets.

    Israel has some of the most sophisticated weaponry in the world at its disposal and uses it without mercy. the Palestinians would be massacared.
  • gimmesometruth27
    gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 24,878
    not to mention the new stuff they just bought from us.

    it would be a slaughter. i kind of thought it would be, but i have this overwhelming image in my head of one day smashing it down with shovels and pick axes like they did in berlin.
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,180
    The reason there haven't been suicide bombings for the last few years is largely because of the security fence. You're essentially arguing that because the fence has been successful in doing exactly what it was meant to do that it was unnecessary to begin with. If you want to talk about numbers of suicide bombings I would suggest comparing the numbers in the years immediately preceding the fence's construction with those in the years following it.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    you know what else would prevent suicide bombings!? ... blindfolding every palestinian ... or how about making them all walk in shackles? ...
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,180
    I think building a fence as an obstacle is slightly more humane.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    sorta like death by injection is more humane than firing squad?
  • gimmesometruth27
    gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 24,878
    i don't think fencing them in and walling them off and having hundreds of checkpoints so that it becomes a prison is very humane either....when israeli government changes its policies towards the palestinians and leaves the settlements then there will be a chance for peace. until that is done, the palestinians will continue to be subjugated and this will continue to stoke resentment on both sides...
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,180
    That's a valid point, but it doesn't address the fact that the fence is fundamentally about protecting lives. Clearly it stokes resentment and causes hardships for the Palestinians. But at the end of the day the fence can be taken down. You can't bring the dead back to life.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    yosi wrote:
    TClearly it stokes resentment and causes hardships for the Palestinians. .

    Clearly, seeing it was not built on any 'border' but seriously encroaching on Palestinian land, taking away the livelihood of many, separating communities, etc. Among other things.....
  • gimmesometruth27
    gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 24,878
    yosi wrote:
    That's a valid point, but it doesn't address the fact that the fence is fundamentally about protecting lives. Clearly it stokes resentment and causes hardships for the Palestinians. But at the end of the day the fence can be taken down. You can't bring the dead back to life.
    "causing hardships" and living in an apartheid state are two very different things...the fence can be taken down, and deaths can be prevented if israel gives back the land they stole. deaths can be prevented if israel and the united states refuse to veto a un resolution to recognize a palestinian state. deaths can be prevented if the settlers do not expand, yet there is a green light for that as well.. until israel's actions prove that their desire for a true and lasting peace is greater than the desire for land and expansion there will always be deaths on both sides. deaths on one side beget deaths on the other, and the cycle continues endlessly. a wall is not the way to prevent deaths. a complete revision of policy is the only thing that can do that.
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,180
    You're right. A large reason for that is that 80% of the settlers live right up against the green line, so the fence's route was designed so as to include these communities on the "Israeli" side of the barrier. To be clear, I don't think those settlers should be there in the first place, but they are still Israeli citizens, and as long as Israel is governing the West Bank the government has a responsibility for the security of its citizens. And again, the barrier can (and hopefully eventually will) be taken down. The dead can't be brought back to life.

    In those places where the fence goes over the green line for any reason other than to offer protection to Israelis I would say that the placement is wrong and unjustifiable.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,180
    gimmesometruth27 wrote:
    yosi wrote:
    That's a valid point, but it doesn't address the fact that the fence is fundamentally about protecting lives. Clearly it stokes resentment and causes hardships for the Palestinians. But at the end of the day the fence can be taken down. You can't bring the dead back to life.
    "causing hardships" and living in an apartheid state are two very different things...the fence can be taken down, and deaths can be prevented if israel gives back the land they stole. deaths can be prevented if israel and the united states refuse to veto a un resolution to recognize a palestinian state. deaths can be prevented if the settlers do not expand, yet there is a green light for that as well.. until israel's actions prove that their desire for a true and lasting peace is greater than the desire for land and expansion there will always be deaths on both sides. deaths on one side beget deaths on the other, and the cycle continues endlessly. a wall is not the way to prevent deaths. a complete revision of policy is the only thing that can do that.

    In the long term I agree with you. In the short term, however, Israel has to protect its citizens, and the fence serves that function. You can argue that in the interest of long term peace that Israel should take down the fence, but Israelis don't believe that there is any prospect for peace at this point regardless of what they do. I'm not sure that I agree with them, although I'm also not sure that I don't. But given their perspective I understand their desire for security in the absence of peace.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • gimmesometruth27
    gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 24,878
    yosi wrote:
    gimmesometruth27 wrote:
    yosi wrote:
    That's a valid point, but it doesn't address the fact that the fence is fundamentally about protecting lives. Clearly it stokes resentment and causes hardships for the Palestinians. But at the end of the day the fence can be taken down. You can't bring the dead back to life.
    "causing hardships" and living in an apartheid state are two very different things...the fence can be taken down, and deaths can be prevented if israel gives back the land they stole. deaths can be prevented if israel and the united states refuse to veto a un resolution to recognize a palestinian state. deaths can be prevented if the settlers do not expand, yet there is a green light for that as well.. until israel's actions prove that their desire for a true and lasting peace is greater than the desire for land and expansion there will always be deaths on both sides. deaths on one side beget deaths on the other, and the cycle continues endlessly. a wall is not the way to prevent deaths. a complete revision of policy is the only thing that can do that.

    In the long term I agree with you. In the short term, however, Israel has to protect its citizens, and the fence serves that function. You can argue that in the interest of long term peace that Israel should take down the fence, but Israelis don't believe that there is any prospect for peace at this point regardless of what they do. I'm not sure that I agree with them, although I'm also not sure that I don't. But given their perspective I understand their desire for security in the absence of peace.
    if they maintain the status quo of expanding construction then there will be no peace. that was the first condition of this round of talks, cease the construction expansion, and it has been ignored. israel did not stop that. they made no concession and made no gesture of goodwill. it is clear that they do not desire peace in the short term, so they will just continue current policy and nothing will change. then the kicker is they will call the rest of the world antisemitic for criticizing israel, when it is the israeli governement who are the ones that are perpetuating the conflict.
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,180
    I agree that Israel should freeze construction, but it is simply wrong to say that Israel has made "no concession or gesture of goodwill." They froze settlement construction for ten months. The Palestinian leadership wasted the first nine months of that time refusing to come to the negotiating table, which makes their current refusal to continue negotiations unless the freeze is put back in place seem rather cynical. If a construction freeze was what they needed to come to the table why did they waste the majority of the ten months they got? It seems much more likely that they refused to negotiate until the very last minute, and then made the continuation of the freeze a condition for staying at the table, knowing that Netanyahu was unlikely to continue the freeze, thereby allowing them to blame Israel for the failure of negotiations.

    There's blame enough to go around. Right now it doesn't seem that anyone (among the leadership of both sides) is really interested in doing the difficult things peace requires.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • Pepe Silvia
    Pepe Silvia Posts: 3,758
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwEzVuw0 ... ture=share
    don't compete; coexist

    what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?

    "I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama

    when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
    i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
  • gimmesometruth27
    gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 24,878
    israel is the aggressor and oppressor in this situation. do you think the oppressed would be jumping at the chance to get into negotiations after being squashed by an oppressor for so many years? i would not...
    put yourself in the shoes of the oppressed for 5 seconds. if i were the oppressed, i would expect a good faith gesture and a concession so that i know the oppressor is sincere. if i begin talks and the oppressor resumes things like;

    1. stealing my land
    2. expanding settlements that are illegal according to international law
    3. making me swear loyalty to a state that is of his religion only,

    which israel has done all 3 of these recently after talks began mind you, i think i would take that as him spitting in my face...and i would tell him to take his negotiations and go fuck himself.

    but that is just me, and that is how i view this situation. i would not blame the palestinian leadership one bit if they did that. people can only take so much before they react...
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."

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