Something to ponder: The Ideal Woman's Body
Comments
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decides2dream wrote:seriously scb, i am a bit disappointed. taking apart the post, and a wee bit out of context...you usually don't do that.
firstly, the fact that you mentioned only women and not men...well it shows a skewed view, b/c not everyone may know that, so you only presented it as a heavy woman's issue, rather than both, thus why i pointed it out.
mental dynamics....men and women seem to think differently.
as to your :shock: face...seriously. if you don't get it. fine. cultural norms are defined by their culture. what is deemed acceptable, desirable, appropriate....whether ideals of beauty or laws for beahavior...ALL are based on the overall desires of the culture they stem from. these things also change in time, as we see throughout history. that was my point.
especially since you left out the following within the quote:
"being heavier and untanned used to be the 'ideal'...since it signified you had plenty to eat and did not have to work out in the sun. nowadays, being thin and tanned (tho that is changing) is the ideal....b/c it is seen as having the leisure time and $$$ to spend working out and spending time in the sun. so all are a reflection on MONEY and wealth, and the precieved, and visible, displays of such wealth."
which further illustrated the cultural norm point i was making.
also, women with unshaven legs are very much accepted, right now, in many parts of the world...even within the western world. austria for example. in the states, not so much. one is not right or wrong, just ideas of 'beauty'...and non are static forever. if one chooses to buck the trend, good for them if it makes them happy, but one should not be offended if one chooses to buck said cultural, present ideals.
as to beauty, well......i don't think 'average' is every held up as an 'ideal' for beauty. has it ever? if beauty was so run-of-the-mill, it wouldn't be so admired, no? kinda like genius in a way. if it was so attainable and most had it...we wouldn't put it on a pedestal to admire. i agree there is WAY too much focus on externals and on some unattainables, no denying that...i also just don't blame the media for all the issues out there, and certainly not all on men either. that's all.
:? Huh?
I think there's been some kind of misunderstanding. I agreed with you that the issue includes men. The :shock: face was a joke about the prospect of comparing women who don't shave to murderers, which I understood you were not actually doing. I left the rest out because it wasn't relevant to what I was saying :shock: about and I didn't have anything to say about it since I thought it was clear that I agree.0 -
JonnyPistachio wrote:
You are so far off on this one it’s not even funny. I tried to understand what she meant and felt. And I thought I was getting it until she posted this:
I feel she’s acting close minded. Then she used childish remarks that came across as jealous. Not to mention how she twisted blackredyellows words around and told him that suicide will find him for ignoring it!!! At that point, I gave up trying to understand her.
In addition, you seem to be getting defensive because you are saying that I’m complaining about it. Wrong. Who’s judging who here?I’m merely bringing up a point. I could care less…the competition thing is 100% accurate. Maybe I just wasn’t articulate enough to convey my point – it’s as simple as this stereotype (I know sterotypes are bad, but just trying to make a point): women are more competitive with each other than men when it comes to beauty.
I don’t stereotype, I can identify when someone falls under a stereotype. And you might look back and see that she deleted all her comments. Too bad for her that al lthose comments are preserved in the quotes where people were so flabbergasted at her saying “shut the hell up if you don’t have a vagina. WTF?!
I honestly think this is an interesting debate. And we will seem to go in circles. What % of the population suffers from anorexia? What % is obese? What arre the REAL problems? Maybe it’s that the average American watches 4 hrs of tv a night? (I made that # up, but I’ll bet it is close)
Well I just understood her comments in a completely different way. And I don't think you're really capable of knowing whether or not she is jealous or competitive.
Are the questions about % rhetorical?0 -
JonnyPistachio wrote:I wasnt clear in my point. it's actually simpler than what I said. I see why it is a problem to other people, but I cannot understand it personally because I cant associate with it because i've never been one to compare myself to anyone.
And I never said I would perpetuate thes things like gawking over a woman. That point was theoretical - i dont' do that. I just said I dont think there's anything wrong iwith saying something is beautiful. If I see a beautiful sunset, I might comment i might not. I will raise my daughter or son to appreciate beauty and not compare themselvesto others, but to just be comfortable in their own skin and know that they are beautiful inside and out.
Do you see, though, how saying to a little girl that the same body type/weight is beautiful over and over and over again might give her the impression that she should fit that mold in order to be beautiful? And do you see how, if this body type is different from hers, it might make her feel like her body is not good enough?0 -
Im never gonna look like SUperman, and it makes me horribly insecure.0
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JonnyPistachio wrote:
What I also find perplexing is that ONE person posted a picture, and suddenly Marissa Miller is being discussed as the standard. I think if we are realistic and have common sense, we will know that this is not the standard. Obviously, the majority of people you see on the street are not ideal either since a huge % is overweight. The fact of the matter is -- a large % of us could use some altering to our lifestyles for health reasons.
I think the reaction from me and the OP is to the fact that all of the other posts in the entire first day of this thread said that this picture represents the ideal body, and many since then have agreed or defended that position. And I haven't seen anyone else post pictures of more realistically healthy-looking women as the ideal.
I'm not sure whether you mean standard as in average or standard as in ideal.The funny thing is, I agree with you, and I don’t see those things as impossible to ignore either. Sadly, because of $$$, I don’t see it going away though. I do see them as objects of adversity for our children to overcome. I think one of the most difficult things besides making sure our kids are confident and appreciative of all body types, is making sure our kids stay healthy by not letting them watch too much TV, have tons of ice cream, candy bars, sodas, and all the other shit that seems to be forced on them.
I agree. I wish we were able to protect children from media brainwashing just through limiting TV consumption though.0 -
blackredyellow wrote:
lol... i never got that either. Somehow the mascara industry has completely conned women into thinking that longer lashes are something that men apparently want. I don't recall ever noticing a women's eye lashes besides if she had them or not
This could not be more true. I once went out with a girl on three dates before I noticed that she didn't even have EYEBROWS.
...I wish I was joking.0 -
haha yeah. earrings and nail polish are other things. no man gives a crap about that stuff. Women do that stuff for other women.october22 wrote:
This could not be more true. I once went out with a girl on three dates before I noticed that she didn't even have EYEBROWS.
...I wish I was joking.0 -
MrSmith wrote:haha yeah. earrings and nail polish are other things. no man gives a crap about that stuff. Women do that stuff for other women.
I'm just going to throw in make up in general. Typically the women who wear the most makeup are the least attractive to me. I get the idea of covering up blemishes or whatever, but what the fuck is with blue eyeshadow or other warpaint-type colors? Are we supposed to be fooled into thinking that this magical woman has green eyelids or permanently red cheek bones?My whole life
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln0 -
scb wrote:Well I just understood her comments in a completely different way. And I don't think you're really capable of knowing whether or not she is jealous or competitive.
Are the questions about % rhetorical?
I don't really care if you think i'm capabale. I thought her comments were/have been rude and way off base to many people on here. Again, she deleted them all.. is that saying anything? Who is EVER capabale of knowing what someone else is thinking here? nobody, but I can deduce from ridiculous statements like 'you don't have a vagina, shut the fuck up!' --and-- 'the woman in the bathing suit looks like she pissed her pants', that something "aint right"
Personally, I 've tried to live life seeing the good in things, and when people point out negatives in something that the majority of people see beauty in, it usually shows some sign...wehter its jealousy, humor, truth or whatever...just my opinion, and it is deduced from several other whacky out of line comments.
well, the % questions are rhetorical, but I thought they were important. I thought putting it in perspective of 'ideal' body should be more in tune with 'healthy', not what's drop dead gorgeous.Pick up my debut novel here on amazon: Jonny Bails Floatin (in paperback) (also available on Kindle for $2.99)0 -
scb wrote:Do you see, though, how saying to a little girl that the same body type/weight is beautiful over and over and over again might give her the impression that she should fit that mold in order to be beautiful? And do you see how, if this body type is different from hers, it might make her feel like her body is not good enough?
Of course I do. Who ever said anything about picking out the same exact body type and ramming it down the throats of little girls though? This is why many peopple here have said that it is good to show kids the beauty in everything-- short, fat, tall, skinny,...and not to focus just on outer beauty as well.Pick up my debut novel here on amazon: Jonny Bails Floatin (in paperback) (also available on Kindle for $2.99)0 -
scb wrote:I'm not sure whether you mean standard as in average or standard as in ideal.
good question. This is where a lot of this thread got lost (i think)...
In the back of my mind, all along, i've been wondering if anybody realized that there is a big difference between ideal, standard, attractive, lustworthy, 'spank-bank' material :shock: , and healthy.
Personally, I think healthy is ideal, which usually results in a few of these other adjectives.Pick up my debut novel here on amazon: Jonny Bails Floatin (in paperback) (also available on Kindle for $2.99)0 -
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=133723
hmmmm. comebackgirl made me feel inferior. and look at all those jealous guys!
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JonnyPistachio wrote:
I don't really care if you think i'm capabale. I thought her comments were/have been rude and way off base to many people on here. Again, she deleted them all.. is that saying anything? Who is EVER capabale of knowing what someone else is thinking here? nobody, but I can deduce from ridiculous statements like 'you don't have a vagina, shut the fuck up!' --and-- 'the woman in the bathing suit looks like she pissed her pants', that something "aint right"
Personally, I 've tried to live life seeing the good in things, and when people point out negatives in something that the majority of people see beauty in, it usually shows some sign...wehter its jealousy, humor, truth or whatever...just my opinion, and it is deduced from several other whacky out of line comments.
well, the % questions are rhetorical, but I thought they were important. I thought putting it in perspective of 'ideal' body should be more in tune with 'healthy', not what's drop dead gorgeous.
Right - NO ONE can really know what another person feels, so I don't know why you keep insisting that you do. Seriously. Why is it so important to you to insist that you know how someone else is feeling? And I believe she deleted her comments out of disgust for this conversation, not out of jealousy, competition, or being "not right".
Regarding you coming down on her for pointing out the negatives in something you and others see beauty in.... did you not get the whole point of the thread or something??? The OP clearly demonstrates that the fact that the majority of people find their ideal of beauty in images like this is KILLING girls and women. And you're saying that her concern for girls and women demonstates jealousy of women?? (Is that what you're saying?)
I don't think I understand what you're saying with your last statement.0 -
JonnyPistachio wrote:
Of course I do. Who ever said anything about picking out the same exact body type and ramming it down the throats of little girls though? This is why many peopple here have said that it is good to show kids the beauty in everything-- short, fat, tall, skinny,...and not to focus just on outer beauty as well.
Reality has demonstrated that this is what happens.0 -
JonnyPistachio wrote:
good question. This is where a lot of this thread got lost (i think)...
In the back of my mind, all along, i've been wondering if anybody realized that there is a big difference between ideal, standard, attractive, lustworthy, 'spank-bank' material :shock: , and healthy.
Personally, I think healthy is ideal, which usually results in a few of these other adjectives.
Well I have been using standard as synonymous with ideal, by which I mean the ultimate goal that women should strive for to be considered most attractive, lustworthy, etc. (I don't think saying, "This is what you should look like to get an A, but I'll settle for the average C in you if I have to" does much of anything to change the message that women and girls should do what they can to get an A.) And I don't believe the ideal that we portray in this society (or that many of the comments I read and hear portray) is a healthy one. And therein lies the problem. At least that's what I've meant by those terms.0 -
scb wrote:Right - NO ONE can really know what another person feels, so I don't know why you keep insisting that you do. Seriously. Why is it so important to you to insist that you know how someone else is feeling? And I believe she deleted her comments out of disgust for this conversation, not out of jealousy, competition, or being "not right".
Regarding you coming down on her for pointing out the negatives in something you and others see beauty in.... did you not get the whole point of the thread or something??? The OP clearly demonstrates that the fact that the majority of people find their ideal of beauty in images like this is KILLING girls and women. And you're saying that her concern for girls and women demonstates jealousy of women?? (Is that what you're saying?)
I don't think I understand what you're saying with your last statement.
I am not insisting I know what she's thinking! However, it sounds like you do! I, however, am able to identify things as however I want, an deduce things from her tone/attitude and childish comments. If she is putting comments out like that out there, especially ones that I feel, in my opinion, are inconsistent and jealous, thats my perogative. YOU can't tell me how to percieve what she says either! geesh!
You 'believe' she deleted her comments because...???? haha! talk about contradictory! wow, now you know what she's thinking. oh wait, scb and Gita are the same person.
Also, you say that the thread "CLEARLY" demostrates that "THE MAJORITY" of people find thier ideal of beauty in images like this is KILLING girls and women? I disagree. The majority of those gilrs that are killing themselves are doing just that, ...killing themselves. They are often found to have psychological issues and a distorted sense of reality. I have, however, completely agreed that these images don't help the scenario.
I have NO IDEA where you get that I suggested her concern for girls showed jealousy, unless you mean that she was concerned that marissa Miller didnt know she peed her pants and she was concenred that one day she will wear panty liners and not be sexy.(?)Pick up my debut novel here on amazon: Jonny Bails Floatin (in paperback) (also available on Kindle for $2.99)0 -
scb wrote:I think our society is structured so as to send the message to people - primarily girls and women - that they are meant to be sexual objects and their bodies are not good enough. I think this message is impossible to ignore. I think it serves a huge capitalist/corporate interest. And I think the status quo is upheld by everyone who participates in it, whether intentionally or not.
I think, as individuals, we ALL have to take responsibility for our role in this and actively work to change the status quo. I think this means demanding more realistic images from the media. I think it means not throwing our money into all the industries - diet, cosmetics, magazine, clothes, etc. - which prey on us and our children for their own profit. I think it means changing the cultural norms to more realistic and healthy body ideals - and DEMONSTRATING respect for ALL body types and for people regardless of their bodies. I think everyone has a responsibility to understand the issues and their role in solving the problem. And, regarding the role of men, I think they have a LOT of power to create this change and should own it and be committed to it instead of (wittingly or unwittingly) perpetuating the problem.
Does that answer your question?
While I do buy clothes and hygiene (cosmetic?) products, I watch VERY little tv, buy no magazines, nor do I ‘diet’, and I do my best to control or discuss my kids exposure to these things. Yet to me it sounds like you’d think I perpetuate the problem if I were to think any one body type were more attractive than another. so are we not supposed to have a preference? I understand that you loathe objectification. But until our third eyes open and we all see each other’s auras, physical appearance will be the first thing we notice in others and a big part of our impressions of others, whether right or wrong.
I see your point when it comes to sheltering children from these influences, but that is the job of the parent, and media censorship for all is not the best way to protect orphans and the kids of deadbeats…
Amongst adults, yes, people need to take ownership of their treatment of others and the power they have to change things…however, they also need to take ownership of their own self image - that’s far more crucial than anything the media can do. In regards to trends...the media changes when we do.
What message does it send (to both sexes, on both sides of this discussion) to say that we need to improve self esteem amongst women….by getting men to stop being mean? Does that not take power from the woman with the esteem issue, and hand it right to the man you’re blaming for being so integral to it?
we’re once again teetering on the verge of PCness run amok. Like...we can’t compliment the exception lest we offend the norm.
PS - I've read Ishmael too. Looks like pretty much everyone in the thread has
Post edited by Drowned Out on0 -
scb wrote:And I believe she deleted her comments out of disgust for this conversation, not out of jealousy, competition, or being "not right".
is that why she only deleted the controversial comments and left the generic ones?Pick up my debut novel here on amazon: Jonny Bails Floatin (in paperback) (also available on Kindle for $2.99)0 -
JonnyPistachio wrote:I am not insisting I know what she's thinking! However, it sounds like you do! I, however, am able to identify things as however I want, an deduce things from her tone/attitude and childish comments. If she is putting comments out like that out there, especially ones that I feel, in my opinion, are inconsistent and jealous, thats my perogative. YOU can't tell me how to percieve what she says either! geesh!
You 'believe' she deleted her comments because...???? haha! talk about contradictory! wow, now you know what she's thinking. oh wait, scb and Gita are the same person.
Dude, did it ever occur to you that she told me how she feels about it?? Again with your assumptions! :roll:Also, you say that the thread "CLEARLY" demostrates that "THE MAJORITY" of people find thier ideal of beauty in images like this is KILLING girls and women? I disagree. The majority of those gilrs that are killing themselves are doing just that, ...killing themselves. They are often found to have psychological issues and a distorted sense of reality. I have, however, completely agreed that these images don't help the scenario.
I think you misread my statement. When I used the word majority, I was referring to the people who think these images are beautiful and it was only because I was quoting you.
And you say girls kill themselves because they have a distorted sense of reality but you fail to acknowledge that they get this distorted sense of reality from the "ideal" of beauty that is constantly being shoved down their throats. This is a proven fact. Don't make me post more statistics. (Yes, that's a threat. )I have NO IDEA where you get that I suggested her concern for girls showed jealousy, unless you mean that she was concerned that marissa Miller didnt know she peed her pants and she was concenred that one day she will wear panty liners and not be sexy.(?)
In defense of your position that the OP is jealous, you said, "Personally, I 've tried to live life seeing the good in things, and when people point out negatives in something that the majority of people see beauty in, it usually shows some sign...wehter its jealousy, humor, truth or whatever..." That is where I got that idea.0
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