Something to ponder: The Ideal Woman's Body

Kel Varnsen wrote:

I am also curious what how the rate of eating disorders like anorexia compares to the rate of obesity. I mean sure some people see a super skinny, or even super fit person in a magazine and decide they are going to go on an unhealthy diet where they only eat celery and drink water. But how many people just see a person who is in better shape then them in a magazine and decide they are going to make healthier choices in life, stop eating so many big macs and maybe get a bit of exercise. I mean sure it is totally possibly that if you stopped showing skinny models in magazines you might decrease the number of people with anorexia, but you also might actually increase the number of people who are morbidly obese.

I believe there's data to dispute your theory, but I'll have to look for it later.

scb wrote:

Kel Varnsen wrote:

I am also curious what how the rate of eating disorders like anorexia compares to the rate of obesity. I mean sure some people see a super skinny, or even super fit person in a magazine and decide they are going to go on an unhealthy diet where they only eat celery and drink water. But how many people just see a person who is in better shape then them in a magazine and decide they are going to make healthier choices in life, stop eating so many big macs and maybe get a bit of exercise. I mean sure it is totally possibly that if you stopped showing skinny models in magazines you might decrease the number of people with anorexia, but you also might actually increase the number of people who are morbidly obese.

I believe there's data to dispute your theory, but I'll have to look for it later.

But you yourself posted that "- 42% of elementary school students between the 1st and 3rd grades want to be thinner.". And if something like one third of all children are overweight how much crossover there is between the actual overweight kids and the ones who want to be thinner? And if a kid actually is overweight, which is also a health problem, is it really a bad thing that they want to lose weight?

eMMI wrote:

scb wrote:

blackredyellow wrote:

And just because people think differently than you, doesn't mean that it's "nothing useful". Very dismissive approach by you... If your point of view is formed, and nothing but affirmation will be considered useful, then why bother.

So, when it comes to the problems of suicide, anorexia, bulimia, body dysmorphic disorders, and negative self-image in girls, please help me identify the posts in this thread that have been useful in any way in solving these problems? Do you really think the "women should look like stick figures" comments are useful??

So the sole purpose of this thread and these posts is to solve the gigantic issue that is negative body image?

Well you'd have to ask the OP, but I don't think the purpose of the thread was to reenforce the problem.

scb wrote:

She can correct me if I'm wrong, but I still think you're misunderstanding the OP's statement. She said, "The inability to see the truth is what the media (mostly men) have done to the female body image." The MEDIA is the subject of this sentence - the group that is being accused of creating the inability to see the truth about the female body image - NOT men. Just because the media is controlled by "mostly men" does not mean the terms "media" and "men" are synonymous. So, in fact, the OP's statement was not at all a blanket statement about men.

I love how you shift the responsibility to the media and the parents but think there's no responsibility to be found with statements like the posts in question. It's so predictable. (Didn't I actually just make this prediction last night?) So, just so I'm clear, are you really saying that posts like the ones above play absolutely no role in this problem?

you are right, I confused the "moslty men" comment with her comment further down that read:
"Why are some "men" like this? Especially a Pearl Jam fan? I guess they don't hear the music."
...it just sounds like she is lumping all of our responses into a heap like someone else also said.

I never shifted any responsibility. I was just highlighting what seems to be a major contributor to some womens personal perceived body images. I never said that those types of posts don't contribute to the problem. I just don't see how men making comments about a beautiful woman should give other women self esteem issues. I do see why posts like this play a role in the problem, but I don't understand it. I am merely saying that if I see abeautiful woman walking down the street and say to my friend, "Hey, she's beautiful", how is that any different from posting a picture of a beautiful woman? if it's my human nature to be attracted to someone like Marissa Miller, should I keep my mouth shut, never say anything? I'm trying to point out that it's all how you perceive things and yourself. If you compare yourself to others too much, you're going to be in trouble. (especially about things like objective beauty)

Anyone who doubts the media's impact on body image is just not being realistic. The media helps define and communicate our culture and sadly, rail-thin women = beauty is a message that is being sent. It is interesting to me that western cultures have perpetuated that image and western cultures have the highest rates of anorexia and bulemia. If you go to other parts of the world, you'll find an entirely different definition of "ideal woman's body," and that ideal is likely based on what kind of body produces children, nutures the community, survives in harsh conditions, etc. I don't know a thing about the woman who is in the picture posted earlier in this thread, but something tells me she wouldn't survive a single day in the artic circle.

Kel Varnsen wrote:

dasvidana wrote:

Anyone who doubts the media's impact on body image is just not being realistic. The media helps define and communicate our culture and sadly, rail-thin women = beauty is a message that is being sent. It is interesting to me that western cultures have perpetuated that image and western cultures have the highest rates of anorexia and bulemia.

But western cultures also have the highest rates of morbid obesity so how exactly does the media come into play there I wonder?

Well, I don't claim to be an expert, but I do know that binge eating is associated with depression, anxiety, and lonliness. So to the extent that depression, anxiety, and lonliness are caused by women's failure to live up to an unrealistic image, then this would contribute to the obesity epidemic too.

BhagavadGita wrote:

blackredyellow wrote:

BhagavadGita wrote:

Maybe the OP was a video about suicide.
Did anyone ever consider that? NO.
It's always dicks, nuts and butt jokes on this serious forum.
Frankly I dislike posting in here because someone always comes along and fucks up your point.

People probably ignored the suicide aspect, not because it's irrelevant, but because it's universally viewed as a terrible thing (regardless of the reasons behind it). Those types of things get passed over here because there is really no debate about it.

Well, I may be dramatic, but have you ever lost someone to suicide and then called them terrible. How do you sleep after saying something as cold as that. Ignore suicide and guess what, it finds you!

holy cow... i never called anyone who committed suicide terrible... and yes, suicide has found me a couple of times in my life, but thanks for wishing it on me again.

scb wrote:

polaris_x wrote:

i think you are missing the point ...

give me one reason why you think it's wrong aside from you don't like it ... if you lived in china where everyone was doing this - do you think that you would honestly feel the same way!??

you can go on about how everyone has choices and to a certain degree i agree with you and commend that attitude but the truth is society has incredible pressures - some are easier to break free from while others are not ... you make it sound like its a simple choice people make when in fact - it's years of sociological evolution at play ...

the majority of our justice system is based on social conformity ... it is everywhere ...

This thread - and your point above about social norms - makes me think of the thread awhile back about women not shaving their legs. Did you see all the insults hurled at the women who choose to break this norm? You'd think they weren't going to be allowed into society!

I love how people have failed to acknowledge the very real consequences, in the form of discrimination, for women who fall outside of the standard of beauty in this society. Studies have shown that women who are heavier get passed over for jobs & promotions, get paid less on average, etc. than their thinner counterparts. No pressure to conform though! :roll:

to be 100% fair, studies have shown that both men AND women who are heavier get passed over in comparison to their thinner counterparts. i've never seen it directed to only women, but both genders.

i would never deny the over-arcing reach and influence of the media....and if i am to lay 'blame' i put it on both men AND women.

someone earlier, i think dan, mentioned how men's mags have pics of sexy women on the covers, and women's mags have pics of the same women. food for thought eh? the mental dynamics of men and women are quite different in that regard, overall.

cultural norms....whether for behavior or looks or anything else....VERY strong influence. just about everything within a society is based on a perceived and accepted cultural norm; whether murder is acceptable or not...or whether a woman shaves her legs or not. (and no, i am not comparing the 2....just pointing out societies role in determining such things). being heavier and untanned used to be the 'ideal'...since it signified you had plenty to eat and did not have to work out in the sun. nowadays, being thin and tanned (tho that is changing) is the ideal....b/c it is seen as having the leisure time and $$$ to spend working out and spending time in the sun. so all are a reflection on MONEY and wealth, and the precieved, and visible, displays of such wealth.


dan's post (out of breath) and drowned out's pretty spot on for me, tho of course i agree with much that you say scb. however, i also must admit, that photo in post 2, she looks damn healthy to me, BMI or not. do you actually know she weighs 110 pounds? i have no idea. either way, she has a really nice amount of muscle on her, sure sign of good health. and, amazingly, i DO know women around her size and just as large-breasted...so while not the norm, not impossible. the tan, yea...agree 100% with you on tho. thing is tho, if she's a surfer, even with consistent use of a sunblock, she'd probably still get tan.

scb wrote:

1. Despite your (and others') problem with the phrasing of her point, the message was clear and valid if you ask me. The message I heard was that many men don't have a true understanding of what it's like to be a woman in this society and many of the posts in this thread support that idea.

2. Jealous?? You boys need to lay off. It's so sad how, when women are trying to make intelligent points about relevant topic like healthy body image, y'all are so quick to dismiss dissenting opinions as jealously. Give me a break! I read her comment as one of concern for the personhood of the woman in the picture and women everywhere, who deserve to be loved even when we have incontinence - but the message in photos such as those is that we won't be. Seriously - do you think the men here will give two shits about this woman once her body no longer fits their ideal of sexy?

3. If the media had no influence of people, it would not be a multi-bilion dollar industry.

1. No, I don't have a true understanding of what it's like to be a woman and never will. Men will never know what it's like to be a woman. What's your point? The main difference I see, is the amount of time spent complaining about how hard it is to be that sex
2. :roll: man....I didn't dismiss any dissenting opinions. I agreed with one. The woman YOU are defending, however, insulted men a few times in this thread, and dismissed their opinions. You also dismiss my (actually JP's) point ("you need to lay off"), then comment on how WOMEN try to make intelligent points and we dismiss them.....pot to kettle much? The icing on the cake is following it up with a facetious question meant to infer that we're all shallow. like c'mon.
Me, personally....I will give the same two shits about her that I do now. She's a human being. I wish her no harm. on a personal level, I don't feel any closer to her than any other woman I see on the street. If she were old and unattractive, I might not want to have sex with her anymore, but that's more because that desire was based 100% on attraction, NOT on anything else...if I knew and loved her, the attraction would run much deeper, obviously.
I don't understand what you think would be the 'proper' ideal here. Should everyone be deprogrammed, blind, have no sense of touch or smell, and just walk around hoping the right personality will one day say hi? That's why these free-will discussions are thought-provoking, but entirely impractical in application. Unless we're going to re-program the whole world...all we can do is hope to gain some understanding, but it won't change much in the real world. JP defended the jealousy comments concisely, I'll leave it at that.
3. Read my post again. I'm the last person to suggest the media does not influence people. I just think it's not as big a role as some are suggesting. But ya, TWICE I mention that media plays a role. You just like arguing with me, admit it

JonnyPistachio wrote:

scb wrote:

1. Despite your (and others') problem with the phrasing of her point, the message was clear and valid if you ask me. The message I heard was that many men don't have a true understanding of what it's like to be a woman in this society and many of the posts in this thread support that idea.

2. Jealous?? You boys need to lay off. It's so sad how, when women are trying to make intelligent points about relevant topic like healthy body image, y'all are so quick to dismiss dissenting opinions as jealously. Give me a break! I read her comment as one of concern for the personhood of the woman in the picture and women everywhere, who deserve to be loved even when we have incontinence - but the message in photos such as those is that we won't be. Seriously - do you think the men here will give two shits about this woman once her body no longer fits their ideal of sexy?

3. If the media had no influence of people, it would not be a multi-bilion dollar industry.

Yes, jealousy. My point is that if we are talking about ideal womens body (what does that even mean? are we talking healthy? sexy? tall? Athletic?) and someone responded with a picture of a woman and she replies with:

BhagavadGita wrote:

p.s. the "woman" in the blue bathing suit looks like she pissed her pants. some day she will have to wear panty liners for bladder control, how sexy :?: will she be then?

I see what I see...
AGAIN, my point is that many women are so competitive with each other! most men dont care what the next guy looks like. This is just a theory/stereotype but: Why don't more men suffer from these diseases? men arent as jealous of each other.

Instead of trying to understand what she means & feels, you are simply projecting your ideas about jealousy and competition onto her and all women and then complaining that women are jealous and competitive! I don't think there's any point in even having this conversation if your objective is to stereotype and judge.

I think the male/female ratio of eating disorders and body image issues is directly proportionate to the male/female ratio of media images and social norms that portray them as sexual objects, that uphold certain body types as ideal, that send the message that your body is not good enough, etc.