I Can't Wait For Government Run Health-Care!!!
Comments
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Commy wrote:the idea that we can't afford health care is a myth.
the US defense budget is $1 trillion, annually. that's average. When you add wars and things like that into it, its much higher. You think we needed to drop 50 apaches gunships off at Columbia's door? Or give Turkey that $2 billion in military aid? They are so intent on keeping others down they are forgetting to take care of us at home. If they can spend 1 trillion on defense, when as it stands no country on earth can stand up to us a militarily force, then they can afford health care. its that simple.
thats not average. thats with 2 wars being fought. while I certainly agree we need to end wars and cut defense spending drastically, it pales in comparison to cost of heathcare. even though we need to cut spending, we aren't going to eliminate the military to pay for healthcare. and even if we did, it would be anywhere near enough.
yup, its just so simple.0 -
scb wrote:
Hmmm... I didn't remember seeing any actual data from you before... my bad I guess. I hope you saw more of the information I posted than just one thing. I was going to post more, but didn't want to overwhelm anyone.
Yes, I get that we spend that money as a nation. What you don't seem to get is that the SAME MONEY could just be paid to government to fund healthcare through a more streamlined system instead of being paid to the insurance companies. In your scenario, why couldn't you pay your $80 to into universal healthcare while your employer paid its $300 into the universal healthcare system? Then no one pays extra. As far as paying more to compensate for those with less income, you already do that too.
its not the SAME MONEY. my employer pays 80% of my insurance costs. you think they will cover the 80% of new taxes I'd get? but it sounds like you want to raise taxes on businesses forcing them to pay 80% of my heathcare coverage. right now, they do it voluntarily.0 -
jlew24asu wrote:you honestly believe government involvement is going to lessen paperwork and administration?
Studies show that it does and it will. Currently, private insurance overhead is 16-30% while Medicare overhead is 2-3%. Plus, as Soulsinging said, it just makes sense if you know about everything that goes into dealing with insurance companies.0 -
scb wrote:
Studies show that it does and it will. Currently, private insurance overhead is 16-30% while Medicare overhead is 2-3%. Plus, as Soulsinging said, it just makes sense if you know about everything that goes into dealing with insurance companies.
okie dokie. we will cut admin costs. thats great. we should be doing that anyway, forcing private companies to streamline shit. I'm all for that.0 -
jlew24asu wrote:
I doubt it. the government is nothing but mounds of red tape. this 15 different sets of forms is a bullshit exaggeration. the federal government would require the same amount of forms.
Speaking as someone whose job involves dealing with insurance companies and filling out said forms, I can tell you that this is not an exaggeration.jlew24asu wrote:
healthcare is probably the most important aspect of our lives. and having the government control it, is the absolutely last thing I want. sure I expect them to help via tax credits or subsidizing where it can, but not control it. I want to be able to control my own care.
You would be better able to control your care under a universal system, because you would be free to choose whichever doctor you want, unlike now where your choices are limited by your private insurance plan.0 -
jlew24asu wrote:
if that new employer pays them less or if conditions change they will most certainly stop doing their job. and someone less qualified will step in.
but it has happened. Medicare is grossly UNDERFUNDED...unaffordable.
um, yes I did. I told you that shot took longer then 30 seconds to develop and produce. you seem to think it came off the anesthetic shot tree growing out back and should probably only cost 5 bucks since it took 30 seconds to shoot into your arm.
what system did I create in my head? drugs, ie anesthetic, are expensive to develop and produce. how am I making that up?
the system you've created and are unwilling to look beyond is the "it can't happen because it will cost too much system"...which is interesting, because universal healthcare is not here...thus we don't know...you can only assume...
and since you're quick to justify a 900 dollar shot...answer me this, o' great knower of health care....I've been taking a medication since 2003..it's a shot I give myself 3 times per week...in 2003 the cost of a 3 month supply (it's listed on the paperwork when I pick it up) was $3000. Today, the cost for the same medication is nearly $8000. The research and development has been done for years...and the cost has more than doubled...
tell me, o' great knower...why...? remember...same medication, same dose, same everything...0 -
scb wrote:
Speaking as someone whose job involves dealing with insurance companies and filling out said forms, I can tell you that this is not an exaggeration.
You would be better able to control your care under a universal system, because you would be free to choose whichever doctor you want, unlike now where your choices are limited by your private insurance plan.
since when when would I be able to choose any doctor I wanted? I would only have access to the doctors the government pays.
my private insurance company gives me more then enough choices.0 -
inmytree wrote:
the system you've created and are unwilling to look beyond is the "it can't happen because it will cost too much system"...which is interesting, because universal healthcare is not here...thus we don't know...you can only assume...
but it is here. its called Medicare and its "free" healthcare for the elderly.. and its underfunded, by an unattainable amount. yet you want to take that system and expand it to EVERYONE.inmytree wrote:and since you're quick to justify a 900 dollar shot...answer me this, o' great knower of health care....I've been taking a medication since 2003..it's a shot I give myself 3 times per week...in 2003 the cost of a 3 month supply (it's listed on the paperwork when I pick it up) was $3000. Today, the cost for the same medication is nearly $8000. The research and development has been done for years...and the cost has more than doubled...
tell me, o' great knower...why...? remember...same medication, same dose, same everything...
I wasnt "quick to justify" a $900 dollar shot. I was just telling you that anesthetic shots aren't free like you'd expect them to be. do your own research and find out what costs went into developing and producing the drug.0 -
jlew24asu wrote:but it is here. its called Medicare and its "free" healthcare for the elderly.. and its underfunded, by an unattainable amount. yet you want to take that system and expand it to EVERYONE.
{snip}
I wasnt "quick to justify" a $900 dollar shot. I was just telling you that anesthetic shots aren't free like you'd expect them to be. do your own research and find out what costs went into developing and producing the drug.
A) ok, then lets fund it...by the way, it's not free, it's funded by tax dollars, I don't know were you got the free thing...
you were quick to justify...and I was asking you, since you're the great knower of healthcare...personally I find it odd that a same drug doubled in cost for no reason, you know since it was already developed and brought to market...I guess you're ok with that... 0 -
inmytree wrote:
A) ok, then lets fund it...by the way, it's not free, it's funded by tax dollars, I don't know were you got the free thing...
fund it how? healthcare cost 2.4 Trillion in 2007inmytree wrote: you were quick to justify...and I was asking you, since you're the great knower of healthcare...personally I find it odd that a same drug doubled in cost for no reason, you know since it was already developed and brought to market...I guess you're ok with that...
again, I wasn't quick to justify. just quick to tell you that the drug took longer then 30 seconds to inject into your arm. you left out the time it took to develop and produce the drug.
I didn't say I was ok with that. like I said, its your money, do your own research.0 -
jlew24asu wrote:
thats not average. thats with 2 wars being fought. while I certainly agree we need to end wars and cut defense spending drastically, it pales in comparison to cost of heathcare. even though we need to cut spending, we aren't going to eliminate the military to pay for healthcare. and even if we did, it would be anywhere near enough.
yup, its just so simple.
actually its standard, its about a trillion a year, wars or no. and it doesn't include about $30 billion in nuke upkeep
(increase from '08)
Operations and maintenance $179.8 Bil. +9.5%
Military Personnel $125.2 Bil. +7.5%
Procurement $104.2 Bil. +5.3%
Research $79.6 Bil. +4.1%
Military Construction $21.2 Bil. +19.1%
Family Housing $3.2 Bil. +10.3%
Resolving and Mngment Funds $2.2 Bil. -18.5%
Total Base Spending * $515.4 Bil. +5.7%
*700+ military bases around the world, empires cost money.
Iraq AND Afghanistan wars were supplemented, not included in the numbers above.
(that was all from wiki)
and there are other ways to get money.
Reagan shifted $1 trillion during his presidency from social spending to the private sector, called neo-liberalism. end those policies.
and why do meds cost 50% less in Canada? Or 90% less in Cuba?
lets do what they do.
The system, as it is, is designed to take money from our bank accounts and deposit it into theirs. They make billions, when, ideally , NO PROFIT should be made on making people well, on saving lives.
jlew your numbers include paying the insurance companies, paying the pharmaceutical companies, co-paying, and of that. which are just ways to get to our bank accounts. we need to scrap the entire system.
you can't be saying we can't improve on this system.Post edited by Commy on0 -
This issue is like abortion. Your best solution is to not get pregnant.
You're better off spending your time researching and finding ways to stay healthy, rather than repair or over-throw this fucked up system. Keep some nuts squirreled away if you ever need 'em, or get a job that pays insurance. Like anything else, you won't be able to depend on anyone but yourself-- universal health care or not.
Either that or: criminalize medical insurance, lawyers, legalize pot and hemp, and let the market do the rest
No, I will not explain that last statement at all. Use your imagination
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Commy wrote:
you can't be saying we can't improve on this system.
I absolutely believe the system can be improved. I just dont think government run Universal healthcare system is the answer.
as for the rest of your post. I suppose some MAJOR shifting around of our budget and heathcare system could make UHC affordable. but even in the best of days, that would be too difficult. and now, given a massive economic crisis and 2 wars still being fought. its just makes it more difficult to even being to make your suggestion a reality.Post edited by jlew24asu on0 -
VINNY GOOMBA wrote:This issue is like abortion. Your best solution is to not get pregnant.
You're better off spending your time researching and finding ways to stay healthy, rather than repair or over-throw this fucked up system. Keep some nuts squirreled away if you ever need 'em, or get a job that pays insurance. Like anything else, you won't be able to depend on anyone but yourself-- universal health care or not.
Either that or: criminalize medical insurance, lawyers, legalize pot and hemp, and let the market do the rest
No, I will not explain that last statement at all. Use your imagination
I agree (with some). I would support huge increases in government spending in promoting healthy lifestyle or preventing bad ones....however you want to slice it. such as health food subsidies, good eating education in schools, etc, etc. America has grown too lazy and too fat. we need to change that from within.0 -
Commy wrote:
actually its standard, its about a trillion a year, wars or no. and it doesn't include about $30 billion in nuke upkeep
(increase from '08)
Operations and maintenance $179.8 Bil. +9.5%
Military Personnel $125.2 Bil. +7.5%
Procurement $104.2 Bil. +5.3%
Research $79.6 Bil. +4.1%
Military Construction $21.2 Bil. +19.1%
Family Housing $3.2 Bil. +10.3%
Resolving and Mngment Funds $2.2 Bil. -18.5%
Total Base Spending * $515.4 Bil. +5.7%
*700+ military bases around the world, empires cost money.
Iraq AND Afghanistan wars were supplemented, not included in the numbers above.
(that was all from wiki)
and there are other ways to get money.
Reagan shifted $1 trillion during his presidency from social spending to the private sector, called neo-liberalism. end those policies.
and why do meds cost 50% less in Canada? Or 90% less in Cuba?
lets do what they do.
The system, as it is, is designed to take money from our bank accounts and deposit it into theirs. They make billions, when, ideally , NO PROFIT should be made on making people well, on saving lives.
jlew your numbers include paying the insurance companies, paying the pharmaceutical companies, co-paying, and of that. which are just ways to get to our bank accounts. we need to scrap the entire system.
you can't be saying we can't improve on this system.
EXACTLY.
and vinny, you make an excellent point....one i've made myself a few times in this thread. preventative measures are simply one of the best ways to preserve your health AND keep healthcare costs down. where we disagree is that you think one simply 'needs to get themselves a job with health coverage'...which simply is not possible for EVERYone to do b/c yea, not EVERY employer offers health coverage...so simply do the math there. point is, overhauling/remaking our current system, getting rid of all the private for PROFIT part of the equation....we CAN afford it, we NEED to afford it, for the overall good of all citizens. no one is saying you are not in charge of your own health, but you bet.....everyone needs access to service, most especially preventative measures....it's win-win for everyone.
btw - another big part of the equation outside of REMOVING the FOR PROFIT portion of healthcare, which would save probably billions in not more....is this:
my current contribition towards my healthplan = new healthcare tax
my employer's current contribution towards my healthcare = new helathcare tax
current employer's who do not offer any healthcare coverage = new healthcare tax
those without any coverage but employed = new healthcare tax
see?
many, many more contribute towards healthcare costs for ALL.....so not "free"...but sure, free for some. but the VASt majority will pay into the system, perhaps even LESs than what we pay in now b/c more streamlined, no private insurance BS, no profit.....that we could afford to offer healthcare to those who truly need it but can't afford it on their own. it is NOT a definite that we actually will pay more, at all...just WHO we pay will change. no more insurance company, and all towards healthcare services.Stay with me...
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow0 -
jlew24asu wrote:
I agree (with some). I would support huge increases in government spending in promoting healthy lifestyle or preventing bad ones....however you want to slice it. such as health food subsidies, good eating education in schools, etc, etc. America has grown too lazy and too fat. we need to change that from within.
Yes, except I was thinking more along the lines of the "wake the fuck up and pull your head out of your fat ass program" instead of spending more money on education
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decides2dream wrote:
btw - another big part of the equation outside of REMOVING the FOR PROFIT portion of healthcare, which would save probably billions in not more....is this:
profit drives innovation. I do not want that taken out of the healthcare systemdecides2dream wrote:
my current contribition towards my healthplan = new healthcare tax
my employer's current contribution towards my healthcare = new helathcare tax
current employer's who do not offer any healthcare coverage = new healthcare tax
those without any coverage but employed = new healthcare tax
this is the EXACT opposite of what I'd like to see in America. higher taxes for all to support a system controlled by one incompetent entity.decides2dream wrote:
see?
many, many more contribute towards healthcare costs for ALL.....so not "free"...but sure, free for some. but the VASt majority will pay into the system, perhaps even LESs than what we pay in now b/c more streamlined, no private insurance BS, no profit.....that we could afford to offer healthcare to those who truly need it but can't afford it on their own. it is NOT a definite that we actually will pay more, at all...just WHO we pay will change. no more insurance company, and all towards healthcare services.
ah if it were only this easy. FORCING companies to pay health coverage via tax would drive many of them out of business.0 -
The saddest part of all of this: There has probably been better discussion about this on the Moving Train in the past few days than there has been in Washington in 10 years.0
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jlew24asu wrote:
profit drives innovation. I do not want that taken out of the healthcare system
this is the EXACT opposite of what I'd like to see in America. higher taxes for all to support a system controlled by one incompetent entity.
ah if it were only this easy. FORCING companies to pay health coverage via tax would drive many of them out of business.
if that were 100% true, why does the government fund so much medical research? it's NOT all about profits to be innovative.
again, it may be higher taxes...but it is NOT more out of pocket expense, it may well could be less. but the idea needs to be researched. as to the 'incompetent entity'........government sure as shit runs a LOT of things, and while i am not saying they deserve gold stars for all they do :P.....it's not all inept, and nor does it HAVE to be, either. change is possible.
again - not saying it is 'that easy'....b/c obviously i am oversimplifying simply to show it is doable. as to forcing companies to pay taxes towards healthcare....again, if they are trading their current contributions instead to taxes, same difference no? as to some smaller companies.....perhaps it would be too big of a burden, but of course...i am making a broad outline here. obviously, like anything else...there would have to be limits and exceptions, etc....but yes.......overall, they are making their $$$ off of americans, so sure, they should contribute to the health of americans. again, while i am not 100% sure, i do imagine foreign companies contribute tax towards UHC, and again, they manage to stay profitable.
we need to follow a new model...CREATE a new model. it IS possible. that's all i am saying.......
vinny, vinny, vinny....cmon now......as ed would say: hope. hope is the underdog!
work with me here, try and imagine things differently....and positive. again, it is possible.......
Stay with me...
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow0 -
jlew24asu wrote:
this is the EXACT opposite of what I'd like to see in America. higher taxes for all to support a system controlled by one incompetent entity.
I don't think you're reading the suggestion right. The point is, we ALREADY pay money for our health insurance, as do our employers. So most people won't see any loss. The difference is that the money employers and employees currently pay into insurance programs goes into the national health care program. Also, medicare and medicaid would be gone. No need to fund them separately. They both would be rolled into the new plan, so the taxes we pay now into those programs (as seen on your tax statement) would go to the national health care plan instead. No new taxes. Just redirecting money we already pay into this new program while phasing out old ones.0
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