Going to Church

decides2dream · May 2008

Collin wrote:

First of all, religion and belief system are not synonymous. And I completely disagree with you.

edit: It's a lack of belief. How can that be a religion? Or even a belief system?

exactly.
being an atheist and having a belief system are NOT synonymous. at all. athism is a LACK of belief. in one thing. atheists don't gather together for 'atheist's group.' it is a non-issue basically. it's a one off - do you believe in god? no. cool. moving on to living and things in this world that ARe apart of their lives and beliefs.

i am agnostic. that too is not a religion.

and....

Cosmo wrote:

My point was... you are given the freedom to choose which faith you wish to follow... including the choice not to believe. And just as we tire of Christians, Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses trying us to convince us of their religions... we also don't need to be convinced that there is no God.
We all get to make that choice... I just think we do us all a service if we'd all stop trying to convince everyone else that our chouice is the right choice.

absolutely!

thing of it is tho, i know some religions make it an important part of their beliefs to try and 'save' others..to convert.....to show the waqy.....etc.
i am most definitely of the live and let live philosophy. believe as you see fit. life is too short. your choice is your choice...the right choice for YOU. we all walk the long road.....and need to find our OWN way.....

Snake · May 2008

Collin wrote:

You've got it backwards, imo. To me there is nothing. And some people add something i.e. god or a deity. I don't deny something, there's nothing there.

I'm going to make a silly analogy.

Imagine someone telling you he believes there's a big blue and orange chicken-cow-fish-thing in the air that governs us and watches down on us. And he tells you he prays to this chicken-cow-fish-thing everyday and every Thursday he has to do a special funky chicken dance or the chicken-cow-fish-thing will get mad and send him to the evil cat-shrimp.

I don't believe this and I would be shocked if you did. But would you say our lack of belief in this is a religion?

What religion do you have? Well, I don't believe in the chicken-cow-fish-thing.

See how this doesn't work. It's the same with god or allah or whatever.

To me there is nothing. The only difference between the chicken-cow-fish-thing and god, allah... is that they are common. These religions are common and talked about a lot, so much that one would think that atheism is the denial of god (and in some cases this might be so). But to me atheism isn't the denial of god because there is no god, just like there's not chicken-cow-fish-thing.

Was helpful at all?

Ok so, why do you deny theres something there?

Collin · May 2008

Snake wrote:

Ok so, why do you deny theres something there?

I don't. There is nothing there. I could ask you why you are creating something (god) that isn't there.

Collin · May 2008

decides2dream wrote:

exactly.
being an atheist and having a belief system are NOT synonymous. at all. athism is a LACK of belief. in one thing. atheists don't gather together for 'atheist's group.' it is a non-issue basically. it's a one off - do you believe in god? no. cool. moving on to living and things in this world that ARe apart of their lives and beliefs.

i am agnostic. that too is not a religion.

Exactly. Hippiemom nailed this perfectly once. I'm going to try and find her post.

Snake · May 2008

Collin wrote:

I don't. There is nothing there. I could ask you why you are creating something (god) that isn't there.

Ok right, let me rephrase. What has made you decide there is nothing there? And you right its not a religion.

Collin · May 2008

Cosmo wrote:

My point was... you are given the freedom to choose which faith you wish to follow... including the choice not to believe. And just as we tire of Christians, Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses trying us to convince us of their religions... we also don't need to be convinced that there is no God.
We all get to make that choice... I just think we do us all a service if we'd all stop trying to convince everyone else that our chouice is the right choice.

I understand this. And I never try to convince people there's no god. I do like discussing the matter. But I'd never claim I have a monopoly on the truth.

Whatever floats your boat, that's my religion!

Collin · May 2008

Snake wrote:

Ok right, let me rephrase. What has made you decide there is nothing there? And you right its not a religion.

It wasn't something I really decided, it's something that happened.

Cosmo · May 2008

decides2dream wrote:

thing of it is tho, i know some religions make it an important part of their beliefs to try and 'save' others..to convert.....to show the waqy.....etc.
i am most definitely of the live and let live philosophy. believe as you see fit. life is too short. your choice is your choice...the right choice for YOU. we all walk the long road.....and need to find our OWN way.....

...
Convert is synonymous with recruit. The basis being revenue. The more converts you have, the greater your revenue base becomes. It worked in the early days of the church and it works today. The more butts you can put into the seats (pews), the more money you'll recieve in the collection plate.
Churches should not make profits... although, many of them do.

decides2dream · May 2008

Collin wrote:

Exactly. Hippiemom nailed this perfectly once. I'm going to try and find her post.

of course she did, she always did.

and of COURSE it's not a religion! firstly, it's not referred to as 'organized religion' for no reason. people gather together, share and practice common beliefs, rituals, traditions, make it a part of their daily lives, etc. athiests do NOT do these things. agnostics either. there is no shared lifestyle, belief system, etc. actully, usually athiests get accused of NOT having a belief system, no morals, etc...b/c of course w/o a god(s) you couldn't come up with one on your own....:rolleyes: so surprising to se it summed up as one, a belief system/religion, here....

Cosmo wrote:

...
Convert is synonymous with recruit. The basis being revenue. The more converts you have, the greater your revenue base becomes. It worked in the early days of the church and it works today. The more butts you can put into the seats (pews), the more money you'll recieve in the collection plate.
Churches should not make profits... although, many of them do.

i am soooo glad my husband is not involved in this discussion!

nothing pisses him off more than the profits many churches do make, the tx breaks, the property they own, etc. sure...they do a LOT of good, charity, etc.......but it does appear like religious organizations get even MORE breaks than charities w/o religious affiliations. anyhoo....a hot topic indeed there.

also do not want to derail the intent of the OP....so moving on......

for the record, i was brought up as a catholic, very much so. catholic school, the whole nine yards. i believed it all....until i got older, and learned to question for myself. i think i was brought up *too* religious to completely discount it all....thus i am agnostic. i still pray, if that makes ANY sense at all. i have *belief*...and yet at the same time..i don't. i doubt, i am on the fence....but i cannot enitrely break away from what i grew up with and that my mother still deeply believes/loves. so, agnostic. i step foot in churches for weddings and funerals.

Snake · May 2008

Collin wrote:

It wasn't something I really decided, it's something that happened.

Ok, im just wanting to understand your stance. So how did it happen?

Collin · May 2008

decides2dream wrote:

of course she did, she always did.

Can't find it anywhere. But then again ... I'm such a stoner

(did read some brilliant posts by her... sigh... I miss her)

But your explanation is pretty good too!

so, agnostic. i step foot in churches for weddings and funerals.

Me too, but I always bring a fire extinguisher

eyedclaar · May 2008

Snake wrote:

Ok, im just wanting to understand your stance. So how did it happen?

I don't mean to speak for anyone but I think part of what Collin is saying is that the burden of proof falls on the person/institution that claims the existence of something that can't be verified by any of the human senses. You can't taste, see, hear, smell, or touch God. However, I can easily NOT taste, see, hear, smell, or touch God so how could you be confused as to why people reach the conclusion that there is in fact nothing there?

Collin · May 2008

Snake wrote:

Ok, im just wanting to understand your stance. So how did it happen?

I'm sorry I really can't explain. I've always been really interested in religion. My family and teachers always joked that I'd become a priest. When I was 16 I discussed god with my teacher almost every week. So many things didn't make sense to me. That was the beginning, I think. But I was still agnostic back then. I don't know somewhere along the way I lost every bit of faith in a god or a deity. Maybe you've become more convinced of your beliefs along the way as well without a clear reason. It's just something you know is true, you feel it and you know it.

I later came to the conclusion that god or deities were added for whatever reason (fear, explaining the unknown, search of something more profound... I don't know).

Snake · May 2008

Collin wrote:

I'm sorry I really can't explain. I've always been really interested in religion. My family and teachers always joked that I'd become a priest. When I was 16 I discussed god with my teacher almost every week. So many things didn't make sense to me. That was the beginning, I think. But I was still agnostic back then. I don't know somewhere along the way I lost every bit of faith in a god or a deity. Maybe you've become more convinced of your beliefs along the way as well without a clear reason. It's just something you know is true, you feel it and you know it.

I later came to the conclusion that god or deities were added for whatever reason (fear, explaining the unknown, search of something more profound... I don't know).

Thats what I was looking for. I understand what your saying.

Collin · May 2008

eyedclaar wrote:

I don't mean to speak for anyone but I think part of what Collin is saying is that the burden of proof falls on the person/institution that claims the existence of something that can't be verified by any of the human senses. You can't taste, see, hear, smell, or touch God. However, I can easily NOT taste, see, hear, smell, or touch God so how could you be confused as to why people reach the conclusion that there is in fact nothing there?

Yes, I agree with that.

(maybe we are in fact brothers from a different mother (that was you, right?))

eyedclaar · May 2008

Collin wrote:

Yes, I agree with that.

(maybe we are in fact brothers from a different mother (that was you, right?))

Yes, that was me. How ya' been?

puff puff pass...

in_hiding79 · May 2008

I just totally find it strange (but mostly comical) that people argue about religion, when no one is EVER going to win!

Collin · May 2008

eyedclaar wrote:

Yes, that was me. How ya' been?

puff puff pass...

I've been great! I'm running out of weed, though... Hope everything's cool with you!

Puff puff pass, indeed

Collin · May 2008

in_hiding79 wrote:

I just totally find it strange (but mostly comical) that people argue about religion, when no one is EVER going to win!

I was going to say my god can beat up your god. But I don't have a god, so I lose in advance.

roar · May 2008

eyedclaar wrote:

You can't taste, see, hear, smell, or touch God. However, I can easily NOT taste, see, hear, smell, or touch God so how could you be confused as to why people reach the conclusion that there is in fact nothing there?

I just want to add that many people CAN and DO taste, see, hear, smell or touch God (part of my explanation for why I like going to Catholic Mass). Experiencing God IS sensual for those who believe.

Going to Church

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