I'm not saying it COULDN'T be as good, I'm saying it almost certainly won't be. I've already said, yes, I'm being presumptious. I just don't think heath had the talent to produce a performance greater than the very best.
By your reckoning, a vote for Leslie Nielsen in The Naked Gun is as viable for "greatest film performance in history" as Lawrence Olivier's Hamlet or Brando's On The Waterfront??
Of course appreciation of a film is subjective. The strength of a performance is not quite as subjective.
I'd take Drebbin over Hamlet anyday.
Smokey Robinson constantly looks like he's trying to act natural after being accused of farting.
Yeah but are you judging that on enjoyment factor or on acting performance? This is the point. I don't rate Olivier's film much at all and don't enjoy it, although that's more to do with the directorial decisions than his acting, but if someone told me they thought Leslie Nielsen's performance was better I'd be all like "WTF bro?!"
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Yeah but are you judging that on enjoyment factor or on acting performance? This is the point. I don't rate Olivier's film much at all and don't enjoy it, although that's more to do with the directorial decisions than his acting, but if someone told me they thought Leslie Nielsen's performance was better I'd be all like "WTF bro?!"
I actually think that Leslie Nielsen's performances in the Naked Gun films (and Airplane) were spot-on perfect. There might not have been as much dramatic weight behind the story or the character, but for the role he was playing, he absolutely nailed it. No one does straight-faced comedy as well as he did in the first Naked Gun or Airplane.
Smokey Robinson constantly looks like he's trying to act natural after being accused of farting.
I'm not saying it COULDN'T be as good, I'm saying it almost certainly won't be. I've already said, yes, I'm being presumptious. I just don't think heath had the talent to produce a performance greater than the very best.
By your reckoning, a vote for Leslie Nielsen in The Naked Gun is as viable for "greatest film performance in history" as Lawrence Olivier's Hamlet or Brando's On The Waterfront??
Of course appreciation of a film is subjective. The strength of a performance is not quite as subjective.
Oh I'm sure it's not the greatest in the history of films, I don't think any one performance could be considered 'The Best'.
I guess I'm just prepared to wait and see rather than making an assumption about the guy's skills. I've seen a couple of his films and thought he was fairly good, but to be fair I was a little baffled when they announced he was going to be the Joker. But I do remember long before he died that people were raving about his performance, which made me think 'well why not?'.
I don't think the Naked Gun example is particularly comparable because that film is not meant to be taken seriously in any way. People like Nielsen's character don't exist, just like there isn't a group of six friends sitting about in a coffee house in New York with a constant stream of one-liners pouring out of their mouths.
I know you're going to point out that I'm now referring to a comic book adaptation as being close to real life, but obviously psychopathic people do exist. I think the key thing that would make the performance, will be how well he has adapted it to fit with the style of the film and how original his portrayal is - which can't have been easy considering Jack Nicholson's stand-out performance in the original Tim Burton film.
I actually think that Leslie Nielsen's performances in the Naked Gun films (and Airplane) were spot-on perfect. There might not have been as much dramatic weight behind the story or the character, but for the role he was playing, he absolutely nailed it. No one does straight-faced comedy as well as he did in the first Naked Gun or Airplane.
its not a joke dude!! I rented Naked gun and airplane this weekend and seriously, I laugh my ass off, Leslie Nielsen, never laughs at the movie, he is so serious in his character, thats what makes him funny hahahaha
Drebin- So how did the guy looked like?
Jane- caucasian, american, moustache, like six foot two
Drebin- thats one hell of a mustache!!!
Did you not see No Country for Old Men? Or There Will Be Blood? Both those performances are better playing a "psychopath"
Disagree, and I saw and loved both of those movies. There Will Be Blood was epic and No Country For Old Men was deep and haunting. Heath Ledger's Joker was out-of-this-world mesmerizing and jaw dropping though. Definitely trumps the others and most any other performance in years.
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I want to give some extra credit to Christopher Nolan and whoever the screenplay writers were for that movie.
They completely mastered the dialogue. It was not campy, it was believable, and it didnt fall into superhero cliches, much like Spiderman and Superman.
Those guys deserve some serious credit.
But back to Heath.....yeah, it lives up to the hype. I didnt believe, for one second, that I was watching someone acting. I saw it as watching the Joker.
First how the hell does Maggie Gyllenhaal get work? Ugggh, I can't look at her with her droopy face and all.
Second, the screenplay was written by Christopher Nolan and his brother Jonathan. Great work indeed.
As far as Ledger goes.....is the performance great?? YES!!! But I think we won’t be able to say how good it really is for at least 5 years or so. To see if it stands the test of time and to have the sting of his passing to subside so it can be viewed in a less emotional way.
Also I am getting sick and tired of hearing how good Jack's Joker was in the '89 film. I was 8 at the time that it came out, so I don't really have any idea of how it was viewed at the time, but have any of you actually watched the movie recently??
I watched it again a few months ago after the hype of the Dark Knight started and everyone was saying 'well I don't know if Heath can stand up to Jack's version'
But you know what?? It didn't seem special to me at all, and really was kinda of campy. So for me at the very least I can say Jack's version of the Joker DOES NOT stand the test of time.
First how the hell does Maggie Gyllenhaal get work? Ugggh, I can't look at her with her droopy face and all.
Second, the screenplay was written by Christopher Nolan and his brother Jonathan. Great work indeed.
As far as Ledger goes.....is the performance great?? YES!!! But I think we won’t be able to say how good it really is for at least 5 years or so. To see if it stands the test of time and to have the sting of his passing to subside so it can be viewed in a less emotional way.
Also I am getting sick and tired of hearing how good Jack's Joker was in the '89 film. I was 8 at the time that it came out, so I don't really have any idea of how it was viewed at the time, but have any of you actually watched the movie recently??
I watched it again a few months ago after the hype of the Dark Knight started and everyone was saying 'well I don't know if Heath can stand up to Jack's version'
But you know what?? It didn't seem special to me at all, and really was kinda of campy. So for me at the very least I can say Jack's version of the Joker DOES NOT stand the test of time.
That's because when you see Nicholson's Joker you've already seen Batman Begins, so it is tainted
It's a different portrayal, anyway.
That's because when you see Nicholson's Joker you've already seen Batman Begins, so it is tainted
It's a different portrayal, anyway.
Hehe, well no I saw it when it came out on VHS in the early 90's, and have seen it plenty of times since then.
If anything tainted me of his version of the Joker it was Batman: The Animated Series with Luke Skywa.....I mean Mark Hamill as the voice of the Joker.
Hehe, well no I saw it when it came out on VHS in the early 90's, and have seen it plenty of times since then.
If anything tainted me of his version of the Joker it was Batman: The Animated Series with Luke Skywa.....I mean Mark Hamill as the voice of the Joker.
Yeah but when you saw it on VHS it was incredible, right? Right??
First how the hell does Maggie Gyllenhaal get work? Ugggh, I can't look at her with her droopy face and all.
Second, the screenplay was written by Christopher Nolan and his brother Jonathan. Great work indeed.
As far as Ledger goes.....is the performance great?? YES!!! But I think we won’t be able to say how good it really is for at least 5 years or so. To see if it stands the test of time and to have the sting of his passing to subside so it can be viewed in a less emotional way.
Also I am getting sick and tired of hearing how good Jack's Joker was in the '89 film. I was 8 at the time that it came out, so I don't really have any idea of how it was viewed at the time, but have any of you actually watched the movie recently??
I watched it again a few months ago after the hype of the Dark Knight started and everyone was saying 'well I don't know if Heath can stand up to Jack's version'
But you know what?? It didn't seem special to me at all, and really was kinda of campy. So for me at the very least I can say Jack's version of the Joker DOES NOT stand the test of time.
i like her...at least a hell of a lot more than Katie Holmes. actually, i wish they would have kept Katie Holmes and then i could have seen her get blown to bits instead.
and Burtons Batman has not aged well at all.
Esther's here and she's sick?
hi Esther, now we are all going to be sick, thanks
I want to give some extra credit to Christopher Nolan and whoever the screenplay writers were for that movie.
They completely mastered the dialogue. It was not campy, it was believable, and it didnt fall into superhero cliches, much like Spiderman and Superman.
Those guys deserve some serious credit.
But back to Heath.....yeah, it lives up to the hype. I didnt believe, for one second, that I was watching someone acting. I saw it as watching the Joker.
His performance was perfect.
i love this post. you did not use the word 'epic' once. I agree that ledger was outstanding in his role and i also have much praise for nolan. i posted my thoughts on him in another thread.
Jack's Joker may have been "campy" but i think that's how the Joker is.
i may be alone in saying that i didnt really see Heath as the Joker at all, just a crazy dude in makeup. i got bored by all of his crimes involving bombs... i thought the Joker was more creative/whimsical with his weapons, i.e. the deadly handshake buzzer in Batman (1989). [i'm not really trying to compare him to jack, but with all the hype about The Dark Knight, i was expecting more creative crimes rather than typical action movie scenarios]
dont get me wrong, i think Heath's acting in this movie was great, but did he really capture the essence of the Joker?
dont get me wrong, i think Heath's acting in this movie was great, but did he really capture the essence of the Joker?
He didn't just capture it. He absolutely nailed it. He portrayed the joker exactly how he was meant to be. Psychotic, demented, sadistic, murderous, evil. All with a creepy smile and laugh.
Did you not see No Country for Old Men? Or There Will Be Blood? Both those performances are better playing a "psychopath"
I disagree. The kind of psychopaths played in TWBB and NCFOM still don't come close to Ledger's Joker or Hopkin's Lechter, and this is coming from someone who loved both of those films and performance.
For one, Chigurh is a contract killer and more sociopathic plain and simple. Sure, his behavior is not what we would consider "socially acceptable," but he's motivated by something deeper than the want of killing. There is a means to his madness. He's searching for Llewlyn because he's been contracted to do so. Therefore, he's not much different than any other contract killer other than he's a much more cold-blooded killer.
Plainview is the same way in a sense. He kills in the end not to kill but because he's motivated by something deeper. It's more of a statement on his part for how his life has turned out. Is he amoral? Absolutely, but I still wouldn't consider him a psychopath because he was motivated by greed for the most part.
Psychopaths (to me anyways) are those who kill for the simple pleasure of killing. Sure, they gain something along the way, but mostly they are motivated only by their want to kill. Lechter and Joker both are like that. Sure, Joker's motivation is to prove a point, but he's not in it for money or revenge. He's out to kill, and that makes him a more menacing psychopath than either of the murderer's in NCFOM or TWBB.
We are the facilitators of our own creative evolution.--Bill Hicks
for the record that is how nicholson's joker was supposed to be portrayed as very campy.
In the comic the joker sometimes is a raveing lunatic who is campy or a complete psychopath. It really depends on the writer at the time.
In the script Jacks joker was supposed to be campy. he did a good job with the script he was given.
I think they both did a very good job. i like heath's version better, but that probably has a lot to do with me likeing the joker as a psychopath more then the campy fool he is sometiems portrayed as.
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for the record that is how nicholson's joker was supposed to be portrayed as very campy.
In the comic the joker sometimes is a raveing lunatic who is campy or a complete psychopath. It really depends on the writer at the time.
In the script Jacks joker was supposed to be campy. he did a good job with the script he was given.
I think they both did a very good job. i like heath's version better, but that probably has a lot to do with me likeing the joker as a psychopath more then the campy fool he is sometiems portrayed as.
Good post.
Everyone should probably keep in mind that TDK had a budget over $130 million more than Burton's Batman.
I think the acting in both movies was very good, but they're two different movies and don't compare beyond the names.
Everyone should probably keep in mind that TDK had a budget over $130 million more than Burton's Batman.
I think the acting in both movies was very good, but they're two different movies and don't compare beyond the names.
I agree. When Burtons Batman came out, that was a huge expensive movie for its time. And also, the Joker has been writen in many different ways over the years. Sometimes, he is very campy and over the top. And some times he is very dark and menacing. Each of these movies portrayed him differently.
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I think I had a different experience than most people. for me, when I was watching Heath play The Joker it was this whole surreal moment. my mind couldn't stop thinking about how amazing he was, but also he won't be doing anything more like that again. and although it really was NOT Heath Ledger on the screen but instead The Joker, something inside me was very depressed, very nostalgic almost. his ability to completely transform himself into a character like The Joker was brilliant, yet all I felt was sadness knowing that his talent couldn't be further developed.
I remember there was a part in the movie, when he was in jail, that my mind STOPPED, and I saw HEATH sitting there clapping. and knowing that he was now dead and that I was watching the character role that killed him, was very haunting.
what do you mean by this? ledger had moved on from the joker and was filming the imaginarium of doctor parnassus when he died.
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After finally getting to see Dark Night last night I though Ledger did a great job as the Joker. He was dark, crazy, and insane. He was awesome. Now, is that what the joker is supposed to be? Maybe. All in all I enjoyed the movie, other than Batman's voice, but to me it was just another action movie but with different characters.
Hey, you wouldn't hire a clown to fix a leak in the jon so why do you let these hooligans tear down the biz? YEEAAHHH. I don't care if he is Mr. Notorious BIG, can he croon?
Heath Ledger was awsome!!! Sitting in the theater I was on the edge of my seat everytime he graced the screen.....I didn't want it to end...But for Heath sadly it did...:(
I hope there will be alot of outtakes when the DVD comes out...
Conversations getting dull
There's a constant ringing in my ears
Sense of humor's void and numb
And I'm bored to tears.......
Comments
Oh I'm sure it's not the greatest in the history of films, I don't think any one performance could be considered 'The Best'.
I guess I'm just prepared to wait and see rather than making an assumption about the guy's skills. I've seen a couple of his films and thought he was fairly good, but to be fair I was a little baffled when they announced he was going to be the Joker. But I do remember long before he died that people were raving about his performance, which made me think 'well why not?'.
I don't think the Naked Gun example is particularly comparable because that film is not meant to be taken seriously in any way. People like Nielsen's character don't exist, just like there isn't a group of six friends sitting about in a coffee house in New York with a constant stream of one-liners pouring out of their mouths.
I know you're going to point out that I'm now referring to a comic book adaptation as being close to real life, but obviously psychopathic people do exist. I think the key thing that would make the performance, will be how well he has adapted it to fit with the style of the film and how original his portrayal is - which can't have been easy considering Jack Nicholson's stand-out performance in the original Tim Burton film.
its not a joke dude!! I rented Naked gun and airplane this weekend and seriously, I laugh my ass off, Leslie Nielsen, never laughs at the movie, he is so serious in his character, thats what makes him funny hahahaha
Drebin- So how did the guy looked like?
Jane- caucasian, american, moustache, like six foot two
Drebin- thats one hell of a mustache!!!
Did you not see No Country for Old Men? Or There Will Be Blood? Both those performances are better playing a "psychopath"
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Disagree, and I saw and loved both of those movies. There Will Be Blood was epic and No Country For Old Men was deep and haunting. Heath Ledger's Joker was out-of-this-world mesmerizing and jaw dropping though. Definitely trumps the others and most any other performance in years.
nowadays hits you when you're young
That said....
I want to give some extra credit to Christopher Nolan and whoever the screenplay writers were for that movie.
They completely mastered the dialogue. It was not campy, it was believable, and it didnt fall into superhero cliches, much like Spiderman and Superman.
Those guys deserve some serious credit.
But back to Heath.....yeah, it lives up to the hype. I didnt believe, for one second, that I was watching someone acting. I saw it as watching the Joker.
His performance was perfect.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRvsHlGmruA
This must be a definitive nomination for best screenplay, Im not kidding, it was masterful
First how the hell does Maggie Gyllenhaal get work? Ugggh, I can't look at her with her droopy face and all.
Second, the screenplay was written by Christopher Nolan and his brother Jonathan. Great work indeed.
As far as Ledger goes.....is the performance great?? YES!!! But I think we won’t be able to say how good it really is for at least 5 years or so. To see if it stands the test of time and to have the sting of his passing to subside so it can be viewed in a less emotional way.
Also I am getting sick and tired of hearing how good Jack's Joker was in the '89 film. I was 8 at the time that it came out, so I don't really have any idea of how it was viewed at the time, but have any of you actually watched the movie recently??
I watched it again a few months ago after the hype of the Dark Knight started and everyone was saying 'well I don't know if Heath can stand up to Jack's version'
But you know what?? It didn't seem special to me at all, and really was kinda of campy. So for me at the very least I can say Jack's version of the Joker DOES NOT stand the test of time.
That's because when you see Nicholson's Joker you've already seen Batman Begins, so it is tainted
It's a different portrayal, anyway.
Hehe, well no I saw it when it came out on VHS in the early 90's, and have seen it plenty of times since then.
If anything tainted me of his version of the Joker it was Batman: The Animated Series with Luke Skywa.....I mean Mark Hamill as the voice of the Joker.
Poor Luke :(
i like her...at least a hell of a lot more than Katie Holmes. actually, i wish they would have kept Katie Holmes and then i could have seen her get blown to bits instead.
and Burtons Batman has not aged well at all.
Esther's here and she's sick?
hi Esther, now we are all going to be sick, thanks
i love this post. you did not use the word 'epic' once.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showpost.php?p=5678708&postcount=270
i may be alone in saying that i didnt really see Heath as the Joker at all, just a crazy dude in makeup. i got bored by all of his crimes involving bombs... i thought the Joker was more creative/whimsical with his weapons, i.e. the deadly handshake buzzer in Batman (1989). [i'm not really trying to compare him to jack, but with all the hype about The Dark Knight, i was expecting more creative crimes rather than typical action movie scenarios]
dont get me wrong, i think Heath's acting in this movie was great, but did he really capture the essence of the Joker?
He didn't just capture it. He absolutely nailed it. He portrayed the joker exactly how he was meant to be. Psychotic, demented, sadistic, murderous, evil. All with a creepy smile and laugh.
'Let me show you a magic trick'..... hehe. evil.
I disagree. The kind of psychopaths played in TWBB and NCFOM still don't come close to Ledger's Joker or Hopkin's Lechter, and this is coming from someone who loved both of those films and performance.
For one, Chigurh is a contract killer and more sociopathic plain and simple. Sure, his behavior is not what we would consider "socially acceptable," but he's motivated by something deeper than the want of killing. There is a means to his madness. He's searching for Llewlyn because he's been contracted to do so. Therefore, he's not much different than any other contract killer other than he's a much more cold-blooded killer.
Plainview is the same way in a sense. He kills in the end not to kill but because he's motivated by something deeper. It's more of a statement on his part for how his life has turned out. Is he amoral? Absolutely, but I still wouldn't consider him a psychopath because he was motivated by greed for the most part.
Psychopaths (to me anyways) are those who kill for the simple pleasure of killing. Sure, they gain something along the way, but mostly they are motivated only by their want to kill. Lechter and Joker both are like that. Sure, Joker's motivation is to prove a point, but he's not in it for money or revenge. He's out to kill, and that makes him a more menacing psychopath than either of the murderer's in NCFOM or TWBB.
That scene was fucking SICK!!!
In the comic the joker sometimes is a raveing lunatic who is campy or a complete psychopath. It really depends on the writer at the time.
In the script Jacks joker was supposed to be campy. he did a good job with the script he was given.
I think they both did a very good job. i like heath's version better, but that probably has a lot to do with me likeing the joker as a psychopath more then the campy fool he is sometiems portrayed as.
Everyone should probably keep in mind that TDK had a budget over $130 million more than Burton's Batman.
I think the acting in both movies was very good, but they're two different movies and don't compare beyond the names.
I agree. When Burtons Batman came out, that was a huge expensive movie for its time. And also, the Joker has been writen in many different ways over the years. Sometimes, he is very campy and over the top. And some times he is very dark and menacing. Each of these movies portrayed him differently.
what do you mean by this? ledger had moved on from the joker and was filming the imaginarium of doctor parnassus when he died.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I hope there will be alot of outtakes when the DVD comes out...
There's a constant ringing in my ears
Sense of humor's void and numb
And I'm bored to tears.......