I'm sitting in a Pro Life meeting right now...

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  • Urban Hiker
    Urban Hiker Posts: 1,312
    callen wrote:
    Humans aren't special...and a few less roaming this planet is a good thing. I say we err on the side of not starting the life of yet another human.


    Thank you. That's what I'm talking about. We control the population levels of many species when we determine that they pose a threat to the environment. Why not for ourselves? <---- That's a whole other topic for another thread.

    However, I appreciate keeping around people's rights to have fewer humans inhabit this world.
    Walking can be a real trip
    ***********************
    "We've laid the groundwork. It's like planting the seeds. And next year, it's spring." - Nader
    ***********************
    Prepare for tending to your garden, America.
  • callen
    callen Posts: 6,388
    Urban Hiker wrote:
    Thank you. That's what I'm talking about. We control the population levels of many species when we determine that they pose a threat to the environment. Why not for ourselves? <---- That's a whole other topic for another thread.

    However, I appreciate keeping around people's rights to have fewer humans inhabit this world.
    I don't know if its a different topic...think its at the core of the right to life debate...that we're this special gift from god for this planet and we should multiply and be fruitful.....we're actually the plague...
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    know1 wrote:
    Take your example and look at it from another perspective. Perhaps all the children are already born, but one of them is detrimental to the others. Should that child be killed?

    Everything depends on the situation, my friend. :)

    If it's a matter of whether or not to continue life support, sometimes life support should be discontinued even if continuing it woulnd't jeopardize the well-being of anyone else.

    In general, the child to which you refer could ideally be placed for adoption if it came to that difficult decision.

    But this isn't really a good analogy to begin with because a child can't be given up (and still survive) until it is born and, like I said, sometimes just continuing a pregnancy puts the other kids at risk.

    Also, if you were going to kill a life, do you not think it's even a little worse to kill it when it's a full-blown person with a consciousness than when it's just a few cells without one? Isn't this why the pro-life people show pictures of later abortions instead of early ones? They figure if you see that it really looks like a baby, you'll realize it's wrong. Conversely, they're afraid when you can't even find a baby in a picture of a 5-week abortion, you'll realize maybe that's not quite the same as killing a baby.

    You've got to remember, I'm not saying every child should be aborted. It's a complex decision. I'm just saying that you can't try to say it's black and white and that every child should necessarily not be aborted.
  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    know1 wrote:
    Actually, I'm against all killing whether it's innocent, guilty, friend, enemy, criminal, terminally ill, etc. I think it's wrong. So in that sense, I'm definitely "pro-life".

    What about the multitude of non-human life?
    know1 wrote:
    I'm also anti-abortion in that I have reasons to oppose it that aren't even based upon whether it's a life or what my religious views say. I truly believe it's wrong on many levels.

    For instance?
  • urbanhippie
    urbanhippie Posts: 3,007
    It all depends when you believe life begins. If you believe it begins at the point of conception then you must believe that the IUD and the morning after pill are as wrong as a termination of preganacy. I believe that 'life' begins at the point where the baby would be viable without the support of the placenta. I know this is being pushed back all the time and I believe this is a good thing.

    One thing I really don't understand is when people say 'I think abortion is wrong except in cases of rape or abuse'

    The child is innocent, it had no say on how, who or why it was concieved. Why is this different?
    A human being that was given to fly.

    Wembley 18/06/07

    If there was a reason, it was you.

    O2 Arena 18/09/09
  • know1
    know1 Posts: 6,801
    callen wrote:
    Humans aren't special...and a few less roaming this planet is a good thing. I say we err on the side of not starting the life of yet another human.

    Then why don't we just kill the already-living ones we deem unnecessary or detrimental?
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    I'm not big when it comes to this issue and I didn't read most of this thread... but why don't they just do it where if you don't get the abortion within the first 3 months of pregnancy, then you can't do it anymore? that way it's not an actual baby yet with organs and stuff, and, at the same time, it gives enough time to make the decision...
  • Urban Hiker
    Urban Hiker Posts: 1,312
    callen wrote:
    I don't know if its a different topic...think its at the core of the right to life debate...that we're this special gift from god for this planet and we should multiply and be fruitful.....we're actually the plague...

    Haha, Good Point.

    Well, then. Should there be choice in all circumstances? Should we limit the population like China?

    Personally, I say yes. We cause way too much harm to this planet and completely disregard other species' Right to Life. I think we should put a stop to ourselves.


    http://clusterfunction.com/video/ninapaleydotcom/Stork/StorkFinalSorensen.mov
    Walking can be a real trip
    ***********************
    "We've laid the groundwork. It's like planting the seeds. And next year, it's spring." - Nader
    ***********************
    Prepare for tending to your garden, America.
  • know1
    know1 Posts: 6,801
    scb wrote:
    What about the multitude of non-human life?



    For instance?

    I'm not gung-ho about killing animals either, but I don't oppose it unilaterally.

    I think it's wrong for people to have sex if they are not prepared to raise a child for one thing. I also think it's irresponsible to make a choice (to have sex) that may likely involve a risky medical procedure done to your body.
    I'm not going to defend these opinions, though. I stated that I have reasons beyond not believing in killing and being religious to oppose it. On a basic level, I just am against abortions.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • VINNY GOOMBA
    VINNY GOOMBA Posts: 1,825
    There isn't a person on this planet that is of age, and able to procreate that doesn't understand that pregnancy is a consequence of having sex. Contraception or not, if you have sex, you run the risk of getting pregnant, and dare I say it, possibly getting a disease.

    "Oh, here this guy comes, trying to scare everyone with his holier-than-thou bullshit! SEX is bad! WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!"

    Wrong.

    It's just simple fact. Of course no one wants to accept it! Who doesn't like having sex? Sex for pleasure probably gives you more bang for your buck (not counting prostitutes, nyuk nyuk) than about anything else you can do! But if you choose to engage in this act, you are accepting any possible consequences. You have a choice, already.

    And as for people trying to tell other people what to do, wanting to control their bodies, etc...

    I know I don't want to tell you what to do with your body. I believe everyone, everywhere should live as free as possible without intervention from the government-- including that baby. But if it takes law, to protect that person, then that's what it takes. Give the kid a chance. Adoption. Whatever. Even in the case of rape, is it the kid's fault? Why should he or she be terminated?

    I believe that 75% of the problem in people seeing my side of this issue are moronic "Christians" who pitch a tent at the thought of killing some arabs to save them a few bucks at the pump (which doesn't really seem to be working, does it?) are also the biggest champions of the "pro-life" movement. They are the worst. Ignore them. These people are more damaging to their own cause than anyone else.

    And to my fellow "Christians" who are pro-choice, and especially those who are faced with that "choice"...

    Where is your FAITH? Will faith and prayer not guide you through anything? If you believe, you believe. Everyone has a cross to bear... Sometimes, that cross becomes the greatest blessing in your life.

    If you are pro-choice, you are not a Christian, as you have completely erased any trace of faith from your set of beliefs.
  • callen
    callen Posts: 6,388
    know1 wrote:
    Then why don't we just kill the already-living ones we deem unnecessary or detrimental?



    hmmm well if we did that there'd be alot less "Social Conservatives"
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • callen
    callen Posts: 6,388
    Urban Hiker wrote:
    Haha, Good Point.

    Well, then. Should there be choice in all circumstances? Should we limit the population like China?

    Personally, I say yes. We cause way too much harm to this planet and completely disregard other species' Right to Life. I think we should put a stop to ourselves.


    http://clusterfunction.com/video/ninapaleydotcom/Stork/StorkFinalSorensen.mov

    I do think we can co-exist with the planet...and we are ultimately part of the whole evolution process....but it would be cool for future humans to see some to the great creatures "God" created for us to obliterate.

    you used China as an example.. they have an affective program in place...
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • momofglynn
    momofglynn Posts: 849
    cincybearcat wrote:
    That's funny, other people are always the prgrammed robots and brain washed...you're the smart, free-thinker huh? You probably just spouted off all yoru brain washed, pre-programmed robot crap too.

    It's about as close to brain washing in this generation as I can think of. Religion is a scam. Faith in fables. Go bother those people and you will be recieved! Sounds like brainwashing to me

    This person certainly opened up some can of worms on this board. Wrong place for it, but some interesting comments all the while.
    Let's Go Red Sox!
  • callen
    callen Posts: 6,388
    VINNY GOOMBA wrote:

    I know I don't want to tell you what to do with your body. I believe everyone, everywhere should live as free as possible without intervention from the government-- including that baby. But if it takes law, to protect that person, then that's what it takes. Give the kid a chance. Adoption. Whatever. Even in the case of rape, is it the kid's fault? Why should he or she be terminated?.

    A one week old fetus isn't a kid....



    VINNY GOOMBA wrote:

    If you are pro-choice, you are not a Christian, as you have completely erased any trace of faith from your set of beliefs?.

    and you'll burn in HELL....ooooohhhhhh
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • VINNY GOOMBA
    VINNY GOOMBA Posts: 1,825
    callen wrote:
    A one week old fetus isn't a kid....

    And neither is a 45 year old man, but they're both a human life.





    callen wrote:
    and you'll burn in HELL....ooooohhhhhh

    I tried to keep my post divided in terms of a more secular argument first, and then posed a question to people who share my beliefs.

    Funny, I don't recall saying "you'll burn in hell." I was talking to the Christians, which I presume you're not one for one of the following reasons:

    1) You've never been one, or was one, and changed your mind.

    or

    2) You claim to be one, but are pro-choice-- which I say completely eliminates the concept of faith, which is what being a Christian is all about.

    Who knows, maybe my holier-than-thou ass will go to Hell... I'm not perfect... And it's not for me to decide, is it?
  • callen
    callen Posts: 6,388
    VINNY GOOMBA wrote:

    Who knows, maybe my holier-than-thou ass will go to Hell... I'm not perfect... And it's not for me to decide, is it?

    Nah..you won't go to hell don't fret....course neither will any of us...
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • VINNY GOOMBA
    VINNY GOOMBA Posts: 1,825
    callen wrote:
    Nah..you won't go to hell don't fret....course neither will any of us...

    Let's hope not!
  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    know1 wrote:
    Then why don't we just kill the already-living ones we deem unnecessary or detrimental?

    Because there is a difference between an embyro and a person, just like there's a difference between a chicken and an egg, or an acorn and an oak tree.
  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    know1 wrote:
    I'm not gung-ho about killing animals either, but I don't oppose it unilaterally.

    Then you're not "pro-life," just "pro-human life".
    know1 wrote:
    I think it's wrong for people to have sex if they are not prepared to raise a child for one thing.

    So you don't think that married people should have sex if they're poor? If they already have enough kids? If they're too old to raise kids? If they're sick?

    What about those who were prepared to raise a kid when they had sex, but then the circumstance changed?
    know1 wrote:
    I also think it's irresponsible to make a choice (to have sex) that may likely involve a risky medical procedure done to your body.

    Haha! You mean like CHILDBIRTH?

    This is where I think it's important to know the facts: Having an abortion in general is 12 times safer than having a child. Having an abortion in the first 9 weeks of pregnancy (which accounts for the majority of abortions) is 71 times safer than having a child. Abortion is an extremely safe process.
    know1 wrote:
    I'm not going to defend these opinions, though. I stated that I have reasons beyond not believing in killing and being religious to oppose it. On a basic level, I just am against abortions.

    It seems to me that if you're going to make an argument you should be expected to defend your position. It sounds to me like either:

    1. You can't back up your opinions, or

    2. You have had some experience with abortion that hurt you personally and you don't want to share. If this is the case, I'm sorry. (But I still don't think your personal experience should be used against others.)
  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    VINNY GOOMBA wrote:
    There isn't a person on this planet that is of age, and able to procreate that doesn't understand that pregnancy is a consequence of having sex. Contraception or not, if you have sex, you run the risk of getting pregnant, and dare I say it, possibly getting a disease.

    "Oh, here this guy comes, trying to scare everyone with his holier-than-thou bullshit! SEX is bad! WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!"

    Wrong.

    It's just simple fact. Of course no one wants to accept it! Who doesn't like having sex? Sex for pleasure probably gives you more bang for your buck (not counting prostitutes, nyuk nyuk) than about anything else you can do! But if you choose to engage in this act, you are accepting any possible consequences. You have a choice, already.

    And as for people trying to tell other people what to do, wanting to control their bodies, etc...

    I know I don't want to tell you what to do with your body. I believe everyone, everywhere should live as free as possible without intervention from the government-- including that baby. But if it takes law, to protect that person, then that's what it takes. Give the kid a chance. Adoption. Whatever. Even in the case of rape, is it the kid's fault? Why should he or she be terminated?

    I believe that 75% of the problem in people seeing my side of this issue are moronic "Christians" who pitch a tent at the thought of killing some arabs to save them a few bucks at the pump (which doesn't really seem to be working, does it?) are also the biggest champions of the "pro-life" movement. They are the worst. Ignore them. These people are more damaging to their own cause than anyone else.

    And to my fellow "Christians" who are pro-choice, and especially those who are faced with that "choice"...

    Where is your FAITH? Will faith and prayer not guide you through anything? If you believe, you believe. Everyone has a cross to bear... Sometimes, that cross becomes the greatest blessing in your life.

    If you are pro-choice, you are not a Christian, as you have completely erased any trace of faith from your set of beliefs.

    I am Christian and I am pro-choice. It's not your place to tell me I'm not a Christian. You do not have the monopoply on Christianity.

    Furthermore, I'll go so far as to say that I believe Jesus was pro-choice.

    Additionally, nearly 2/3 of women who have abortions in the U.S. are Christians. Their faith and prayer guided them to abortion.

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