I'm sitting in a Pro Life meeting right now...

scb wrote:

I think "anti-choice" is a more appropriate name for a movement that is trying to set itself up in opposition to the pro-choice movement.

This is no better than the pro-lifer's use of the label "pro-abortion" for the pro-choicers. No one is an advocate of the death of children. Pro-lifers do consider themselves pro-choice, but they feel that the unborn child has no choice in these matters. Again, just playing devil's advocate.

scb wrote:

Are you referring to the Justice for All exhibit? Sounds like it. The worst part about them are the dishonest tactics they use to try to convert people to their side. Not only do they propagate blatently false information on college campuses, but they do things like pose as students to give the impression that your classmates agree with them and to waste the time of those disseminating accurate info so others can't get their hands on it. If they actually had a good argument, they should feel good about presenting it in a straightforward manner.

Yeah thats what it was, Justice for All, and that is exactly what they did. One funny part was how their stupid billboards were absolutely huge and could be seen from across campus but when you walk up to the exhibit they had one little sign that said, "Warning, graphic images ahead."

moses-i wrote:

I tried to avoid being pulled into this highly contentious debate, but it just couldn't be helped.

Welcome to the board! I think it's great that you couldn't help but be pulled into such an (in my opinion) important debate. I certainly appreciate your thoughtful response.

moses-i wrote:

Before getting onto the topic of abortion, I want to address the comment that the Catholic Church is the "biggest scam"….
However, the Catholc Church seems to always be painted with broad strokes by most atheist…
I am not saying that the Catholic Church is innocent but many North American critics of the church seem to think that the Catholic Church is this giant evil multinational corporation that wants to take over the world and impose white Christian rule….
Quite frankly I am sick and tired of the Catholic Church being constantly maligned. Moreover, it is often lumped together with the American Christian Right, which has its roots largle in Christian Fundamentalism….
At the end of the day, the Catholic Church is just a human institution, just as flawed as any human being. So just cut it some slack.

I agree that the Catholic Church (and Christianity in general) are often painted with broad strokes. As you said, although the Church is flawed, it has been responsible for many good things.

That being said, it seems to me like it kind of sets itself up in a few key ways:

1. People liken it to a “giant evil multinational corporation that wants to take over the world and impose white Christian rule” because of its never-ending attempt to impose its values on others. This is the crux of the whole pro-choice argument. It’s fine if the Church/Pope believes I’m going to hell if I have an abortion, but let that be (as you stated below) between me and God. Don’t try to enact laws that force me to behave according to the Church’s doctrine.

2. The Catholic Church is lumped together with the American Christian Right, at least when it comes to reproductive issues, because they fight for the same ideal: That people (especially women) should have sex only within the context of marriage and for the sole purpose of procreation. And in support of this, they oppose not only abortion, but also contraception, which many find to be short-sighted, impractical, or even hypocritical.

3. While I agree with you that the “Church is just a human institution, just as flawed as any human being” and should be cut some slack, I think people have a problem with this because the Church/Pope a) doesn’t present itself so as to acknowledge its own humanity or flaws, and b) doesn’t seem to afford the same consideration to others. Where is the slack for the women who have abortions? (Maybe this is where the discussion becomes about whether the Church is accurately represented by individuals who choose to judge in its name.)

moses-i wrote:

Now abortion. My opinion on abortion is that I was not put on this earth to judge anyone, we are given free will and if women want to exercise their right and free will, so be it. Only God and that woman knows what is in her heart and so if what she has done is "wrong", she may have to answer for it. But that does not make abortion wrong. I don't necessarily agree with it, but I have never been in the position of having to work through this very torturous decision.

I think this is the right attitude. If everyone had this attitude, the whole debate would go away. Unfortunately, I don’t hear this from many people who identify as “pro-life” (not that you identify yourself that way).

moses-i wrote:

However, I have known women who have had several abortions and seem to see it as no different than a simple check up at the doctor's office. This type of callous lack of responsibility, in my humble opinion, is fully unjustified. Being raped, or just making a mistake at an early age are one thing, but living a lifestyle that results in countless unwanted pregnancies is definitely an issue, especially when so many women agonize over the inability to have children of their own.

Now this is more like what I’m used to hearing. It’s interesting to me because it seems to take a different tone (judgment-wise) than the previous section of your post, and the issue of multiple abortions seems to be the turning point. I guess everyone has opinions and there’s a fine line between having an opinion and being judgmental, so I’m not saying you’ve crossed that line.

But let me ask you this: At what number of abortions does your sentiment turn? When does it become “callous lack of responsibility”? Is it the “callous” attitude of these women that bothers you or the “lack of responsibility” in their actions? How do you really know how they feel about it? In what way should they present themselves to you to make their attitudes/actions less unjustified? How do you know they have been so irresponsible? Are you intimately familiar with the circumstances under which they became pregnant? What if they used birth control? Would that make their decisions less unjustified? What about making a mistake at an early age? Why is that more justified than making a mistake at a later age? At what age is the turning point? Exactly which kind of lifestyle is it that “results in countless unwanted pregnancies”? Is that the lifestyle where you follow the Catholic doctrine to not use birth control? (Does that count as a “lack of responsibility”?) Is it the lifestyle where you want to use birth control but can’t afford it? Is it the lifestyle where you have not been educated about how to prevent pregnancy? Is it the lifestyle where you are within a culture or marriage that does not afford you the choice of whether or not to have sex or use birth control? Is it the lifestyle where the birth control you use fails? And would this lifestyle be more acceptable if fewer women were to “agonize over the inability to have children of their own”? Why? And is it all the unwanted pregnancies with which you take issue, or just the decision to terminate them? I’m not suggesting I know your answers; just thought it was something to think about.

it figures that this would be my first post in here...i have been - what do you call it - lurking(?) for some time but needed to reply...

i am a labor and delivery nurse in center city philadelphia and after working here i understand why some people deserve a choice on whether or not to carry their child to term...like people who are addicted to drugs and never want their child to have to experience withdrawal like they do, and people who are told that their child will never survive 1 hour outside of the womb due to a genetic condition, and the 14 year old girl that comes in because she was raped but her mother wouldn't let her get an abortion so she needs to live with that experience for the rest of her life.

it is not a clear-cut issue...and people often think that abortions are for irresponsible women who "can't keep their legs shut"...that makes me so infuriated. half of the babies i deliver every day are coming into a shitty world that has no place for them....a world where needles sit next to their makeshift crib, or where a high school textbook is on their mom's lap instead of them. or worse, where IVs and catheters invade their entire bodies because they were never meant to survive. that's the world i see...not a drunk college student who makes a mistake on thirsty thursday.

gimmetruth wrote:

it figures that this would be my first post in here...i have been - what do you call it - lurking(?) for some time but needed to reply...

i am a labor and delivery nurse in center city philadelphia and after working here i understand why some people deserve a choice on whether or not to carry their child to term...like people who are addicted to drugs and never want their child to have to experience withdrawal like they do, and people who are told that their child will never survive 1 hour outside of the womb due to a genetic condition, and the 14 year old girl that comes in because she was raped but her mother wouldn't let her get an abortion so she needs to live with that experience for the rest of her life.

it is not a clear-cut issue...and people often think that abortions are for irresponsible women who "can't keep their legs shut"...that makes me so infuriated. half of the babies i deliver every day are coming into a shitty world that has no place for them....a world where needles sit next to their makeshift crib, or where a high school textbook is on their mom's lap instead of them. or worse, where IVs and catheters invade their entire bodies because they were never meant to survive. that's the world i see...not a drunk college student who makes a mistake on thirsty thursday.

Thanks for that insight, and for reminding us that people's lives are too difficult and complicated for it to be our place to judge them.

Personally, I place a little more value on the perspectives of those who have first-hand knowledge of this (or any) subject. (Now I'll probably get shit for saying that! :eek: )

I think your user name is quite apropos, by the way.

It's oh so easy to be judgemental about this.

Abortion is legal. You don't have to like it, but thats that.

scb wrote:

Wow. Women who have sex should be made to suffer? Illegal abortions don't kill women? Feminists are akin to Nazis, badly hate men, and don't have sex?

You're a teacher, right? Is this the kind of misinformation, hatred, and close-mindednenss you bring to your classroom? Just the thought of someone with this attitude teaching my future children makes me want to abort them for their own protection.

First off, I do not bring my political views into the classroom as liberals everywhere do.
Second, there is no hate in my views, just common sense. The abortion movement has nothing to do with taking away choice from women. What about the choice of the child that was conceived by someone's immature actions?
Thirdly, feminazis is a common expression; I'm not saying they are like nazis, but we all know tons of them are against men in any form.
Fourthly, I have studied the issues over many years and have come to these conclusions. Typical argument from liberals: if you do not agree with them then you are hate-filled and close-minded. I am so sick and tired of this crap. Liberals taught free speech, but they are completely against it when it comes from a different side.

The only anti-abortion rally I ever saw was at a college and some people did have signs with aborted fetuses. I had no problem with this because it showed the side people do not want to see and what the problem is really about, not choice. However, the poor people were lamblasted and threatened and had violence perpetrated against them because they happened to say something different than the brain-washed college kids thought. Every other demonstration I ever saw was women's rights, gay rights, etc. etc. by liberals every day. Conservatives get absolutely no say on college campuses. And you say the Christian kids are brain-washed? Go to any college campus and that's where you will find the brain-washing.

nathanastin wrote:

First off, I do not bring my political views into the classroom as liberals everywhere do.
Second, there is no hate in my views, just common sense. The abortion movement has nothing to do with taking away choice from women. What about the choice of the child that was conceived by someone's immature actions?
Thirdly, feminazis is a common expression; I'm not saying they are like nazis, but we all know tons of them are against men in any form.
Fourthly, I have studied the issues over many years and have come to these conclusions. Typical argument from liberals: if you do not agree with them then you are hate-filled and close-minded. I am so sick and tired of this crap. Liberals taught free speech, but they are completely against it when it comes from a different side.

The only anti-abortion rally I ever saw was at a college and some people did have signs with aborted fetuses. I had no problem with this because it showed the side people do not want to see and what the problem is really about, not choice. However, the poor people were lamblasted and threatened and had violence perpetrated against them because they happened to say something different than the brain-washed college kids thought. Every other demonstration I ever saw was women's rights, gay rights, etc. etc. by liberals every day. Conservatives get absolutely no say on college campuses. And you say the Christian kids are brain-washed? Go to any college campus and that's where you will find the brain-washing.

So, are all abortions wrong no matter what?

nathanastin wrote:

Thirdly, feminazis is a common expression

WRONG. Feminazi is not a common expression. Maybe among misogynists it is. Maybe in Vermont it is. (?) But in the rest of the world...NO...

nathanastin wrote:

only anti-abortion rally I ever saw was at a college and some people did have signs with aborted fetuses. I had no problem with this because it showed the side people do not want to see and what the problem is really about, not choice.

You do realize that the majority of abortions (VAST MAJORITY!) are not performed on fetuses that are like 6 months (like the ones in the photos.) Yes?

You are aware of this... No?

You do know the writings of Plato and Socrates both indicate they were both "pro-choice."

You do know that when the founding fathers made the laws in the US... originally... it was legal to abort a pregnancy up until "quickening."

Want to see some pictures of kids in foster care? Kids that were carried to term by mothers that didn't want them and treated them as such before they were even born?

Kids born with multiple congenital anomolies... and placed into foster care...

And/Or beaten and treated like shit because NO ONE wants them. They were unwanted before they were even born. Nice way to live, HUH? Addicted kids born to addicts?

Back alley abortions gone wrong?!?!

WHETHER LEGAL OR NOT SAFE ABORTIONS WILL ALWAYS BE AVAILABLE TO THE RICH.

IF YOU ARE AGAINST ABORTION....DON'T HAVE ONE.