Israel, US, and Abbas want peace...Hamas doesn't

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Comments

  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    jlew24asu wrote:
    again, what option will hamas use besides violence?


    the borders changed after a war that was brought onto Israel in 1967. going back to those exact borders will not happen. Israel is not going to give up Jerusalem. the best that will happen is a shared capital

    I've posted countless times on this message board explaining how the 1967 war was started by Israel. I've provided links to sources that describe this in detail. The Israelis themselves even admit that they began the 1967 war.
    It's obviously a complete waste of time discussing anything with you as you clearly only believe what you want to believe and dismiss anything else out of hand. Debating anything with you is just pissing in the wind.

    Who started the 1967 Six-Day War?
    http://www.aljazeera.com/news/newsfull.php?newid=10259

    "We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him (Nasser) .” -- Former Israeli PM Menahem Begin.

    "Moshe Dayan, the celebrated commander who, as Defense Minister in 1967, gave the order to conquer the Golan...[said] many of the firefights with the Syrians were deliberately provoked by Israel, and the kibbutz residents who pressed the Government to take the Golan Heights did so less for security than for the farmland... They didn't even try to hide their greed for the land...We would send a tractor to plow some area where it wasn't possible to do anything, in the demilitarized area, and knew in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didn't shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance further, until in the end the Syrians would get annoyed and shoot. And then we would use artillery and later the air force also, and that's how it was...The Syrians, on the fourth day of the war, were not a threat to us.'"     The New York Times, May 11, 1997.


    In Israeli Prime Minister Moshe Sharatt's personal diaries, there is an excerpt from May of 1955 in which he quotes Moshe Dayan as follows: "[Israel] must see the sword as the main, if not the only, instrument with which to keep its morale high and to retain its moral tension. Toward this end it may, no - it must - invent dangers, and to do this it must adopt the method of provocation-and-revenge...And above all - let us hope for a new war with the Arab countries, so that we may finally get rid of our troubles and acquire our space." Quoted in Livia Rokach, "Israel's Sacred Terrorism."
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    jlew24asu wrote:
    a legitimate resistance movement ??? o thats nice. are you blind? how has this legitimate resistance movement helped the Palestinian people? please tell me.

    I'll allow this article to answer your question.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7044069.stm

    John Dugard, the UN human rights envoy for the Palestinian Territories...

    '...It is a backdrop which makes him pessimistic about the major US-sponsored peace conference between Israel and the Palestinians, expected to be held next month.

    Mr Dugard said he saw a greater danger - that of the Palestinian Authority raising expectations too high in the Palestinian community.

    "If those expectations are not met, I fear there may be serious consequences," he added.

    The consequences include the possibility of a third "intifada", a large-scale, violent uprising against the Israelis, he said.

    Mr Dugard said this should be no surprise.

    "Inevitably in a military occupation, there are likely to be those engaged in resistance."

    These people may be labelled terrorists, Mr Dugard added, but history treats them differently.

    He cited the example of the French Resistance during World War II, and those in Namibia who fought occupation by South Africa.

    "Now," he said, "they are in government and treated as heroes."
  • RolandTD20Kdrummer
    RolandTD20Kdrummer Posts: 13,066
    no stone left unturned so to speak
    http://www.cpt.org/archives/signs/2006/images/winter06cL.jpg
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:
    no stone left unturned so to speak
    http://www.cpt.org/archives/signs/2006/images/winter06cL.jpg

    Yeah, but that soldiers the victim according to people like Jlew.
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    Byrnzie wrote:
    I'll allow this article to answer your question.

    typical. do you have a brain?

    right click copy.....right click paste
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Yeah, but that soldiers the victim according to people like Jlew.

    yup, people like me. people like me who are ready for the violence to stop. then there are people like you, who dont.
  • RolandTD20Kdrummer
    RolandTD20Kdrummer Posts: 13,066
    wtf?...

    odd
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    Byrnzie wrote:
    This post is pure guff from start to finish.

    Again isn't that like the pot calling the kettle black. It's guff to you because it doesn't fit your narrow minded view of the world.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • VedJam
    VedJam Posts: 18
    Nice to see ppl interested in this situation at the middle east..
    I'm from Israel and I hear about soldiers and Palestinians getting hurt every day, shootings and missiles flying all over the place, that luckily- they usually don't take ppl's life and only cause damage..
    Im sorry to tall you that I dont think anyone can really understand any side of the issue if your not in it.
    ppl have tried [and r still trying] to find a solution for both sides but I can't even describe how hard it must be..

    I edmit we have a crapy goverment, but the situation in Gaza is not "Israel taking over", it's Israel trying to lessen Hamas' strength because they just can't seem to stop shooting missiles at us..(and im sorry but i don't see the "illegal occupation" some people see in that)
    What can the goverment/army possibly try to do after talking to them is clearly out of the question? and when our troopes are still in captive?

    when ppl see all this they look at it as if Israel is not willing to delegate and deliberate..

    We're trying to get the band to come here [not just Israel, any place in the middle east will do:)] do you think a band like Pearl Jam would look at this whole situation and say [in other words:] "Ah, no thank u.."? or that they will be willing anough to try..?

    There is no other band who has given me more inspiration and happines in the intire world and i hope i will have enough money to fly and see them abroad..
    thanks, if anyone has read this and Im very sorry for the spelling:)

    so.. what do u think?
  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    jlew24asu wrote:
    typical. do you have a brain?

    right click copy.....right click paste

    lol.

    you don't even bother responding to what he copies and pastes atleast. the reason he does that is because if he just said it himself you would ask for proof. So he just puts it from the beginning. And yet you just ignore the point of the post, and attack him... you can do better than that.
    VedJam wrote:
    I edmit we have a crapy goverment, but the situation in Gaza is not "Israel taking over", it's Israel trying to lessen Hamas' strength because they just can't seem to stop shooting missiles at us..(and im sorry but i don't see the "illegal occupation" some people see in that)
    What can the goverment/army possibly try to do after talking to them is clearly out of the question? and when our troopes are still in captive?

    Yeah, your government is the victim. They don't have thousands of innocent people jailed, half of which don't even have charges against them, and many of which are children.

    You say you can't really understand the situation unless you are in it, but I think that maybe you've been fed too much propaganda.
    when ppl see all this they look at it as if Israel is not willing to delegate and deliberate..

    Well, there's been proof of that over the past 60 years or so.
  • VedJam
    VedJam Posts: 18
    i'm really sorry you think that.. im not fed BS, but i respect your opinion..

    non the less i don't think you [or i for that matter] will do a better job on finding a solution that will fit both sides [and i'm sure you know, one of the main problem is that Hamas is not willing to acknowledge Israel].
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    VedJam wrote:
    i'm really sorry you think that.. im not fed BS, but i respect your opinion..

    non the less i don't think you [or i for that matter] will do a better job on finding a solution that will fit both sides [and i'm sure you know, one of the main problem is that Hamas is not willing to acknowledge Israel].

    welcome to the forum. be prepared to have alot of insults thrown your way. they are many people on this board who have all out hatred for you and your country.

    while I think Israel has done some very bad things to the Palestinians, I firmly believe it is hamas, and hamas alone, who are preventing peace.

    I hope you continue on this discussion, but like I said, be prepared for some nasty things aimed directly at you.
  • VedJam
    VedJam Posts: 18
    thanks jlew..

    i didn't mean to sound so innocent..
    just loved the band and tried to share=].. but its nice of ppl to care, weather they like me or not i don't mind.

    i hope u see me as a fellow fan and not as "the Israeli"


    peace to you all..
  • LikeAnOpeningBandForTheSun
    LikeAnOpeningBandForTheSun Posts: 6,097
    Kann wrote:
    For the second, please try to remember that Hamas have been democratically elected by the Palestinian people.

    Just because Hamas was democratically elected, doesn't mean Israel or the US is obligated to deal with them. How they were elected is irrelevant. They still refuse to recognise Israel, still attack Israel, and still have no interest in peace with Israel.

    Why would you attempt to talk with these people when they have no interest in talking and Israel is holding all the cards? At least with Fateh, they can be reasoned with. And no, they are NOT a puppet of Israel. They still represent a sizable chunk of Palestinian people, and it is possible that if a compromise can be reached with them, the majority of Palestine will agree to some extent.
  • RolandTD20Kdrummer
    RolandTD20Kdrummer Posts: 13,066
    Reality check. It's a catch 22. One exists because the other fuels it.

    Both sides. Everyone has hand their hand in the cookie jar repeatedly. One is seen as occupying, and in cahoots with the Us and the UK. The other is seen as "combative" or "terrorist"..

    Given the track record of the US and the UK with regards to other countries and shifting power to favors.

    Pretty easy to formulate the foot in the other shoe.
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:
    Reality check. It's a catch 22. One exists because the other fuels it.

    Both sides. Everyone has hand their hand in the cookie jar repeatedly. One is seen as occupying, and in cahoots with the Us and the UK. The other is seen as "combative" or "terrorist"..

    Given the track record of the US and the UK with regards to other countries and shifting power to favors.

    Pretty easy to formulate the foot in the other shoe.

    here's a reality check. consider the people involved. consider the land being fought over. you mentioned neither.
  • RolandTD20Kdrummer
    RolandTD20Kdrummer Posts: 13,066
    jlew24asu wrote:
    here's a reality check. consider the people involved. consider the land being fought over. you mentioned neither.

    It's already known who is involved and where. One side is not innocent. No such thing.
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    jlew24asu wrote:
    typical. do you have a brain?

    right click copy.....right click paste

    Nice way of ignoring the post, as per usual.
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    mammasan wrote:
    Again isn't that like the pot calling the kettle black. It's guff to you because it doesn't fit your narrow minded view of the world.

    It was just pure guff. Simple.
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    VedJam wrote:
    the situation in Gaza is not "Israel taking over", it's Israel trying to lessen Hamas' strength because they just can't seem to stop shooting missiles at us..(and im sorry but i don't see the "illegal occupation" some people see in that)


    Firstly, welcome to the board.

    Secondly, the illegal occupation is the central issue here. Until you withdraw to the internationally recognized borders then you can't be surprised that the Palestinians are going to resist by any means at their disposal.

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