Map of America: What if WE Had Been Invaded instead of Iraq?
Comments
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DriftingByTheStorm wrote:Check out this map:
America After The Invasion
Does it do anything to help you imagine what "great fun" the Iraqis must be having under American "liberation"?
first; we have been invaded. the enemy walks among us.
second; 140 million americans own guns. over 14 million carry conceald weapons legally. not even the american government could take over the country should it decide to go against the constitution.
we can; have; and will continue to be attacked. just as almost every country has. the UK has has many more attacks in the same amount of time. (and foiled attempts). the idea that america could be taken by anyone is pure nuttery.0 -
I'm jumping into this a little late, but I'll give my 2 cents anyway:
Let's not forget the timeline of what happened in Iraq:
1. Shock and Awe
2. The army was disbanded making A LOT of people unemployed
3. The de-Baathification of Iraq - basically firing any professional who belonged to the Baath party.
Then what happened: the insurgency was 95% Iraqis and 5% foreing fighters. What that means is that, after "mission accomplished" there was still a group of nationlists, mostly Sunni, who opposed the occupation. It makes perfect sense that they opposed the US because they had been in power until then and lost their power.
**If the US was invaded, there would naturally be groups that oppose the occupation as well as groups that are glad that the govt. was deposed. To expect that no one would fight back is unrealist, to be kind
Then, while the insurgency is mostly attacking the invading army, a small group of them are attacking the other groups or Iraqis. It wasn't the insurgency who started the secterian war, it was al-Queida in Iraq, or the aforementioned 5%.
Now, the other group needs to defend itself as well. Let's remember however, that this group is allied with the invading force and also forms most of the government: the Shias.
The secterian war keeps escalating. The invading force keeps fighting the insurgency and the terrorrists keep attacking.
Yes, pretty soon, all you have is chaos.
**If the US was invaded and occupied by another country, why wouldn't the same thing happen? I'd say that at first most people would be united against or indifferent to the occupying force. But the moment one group of Americans starts attacking another group of Americans and you start getting tit-for-tat retaliations, you'll have the same situation as in Iraq.0 -
onelongsong wrote:first; we have been invaded. the enemy walks among us.
second; 140 million americans own guns. over 14 million carry conceald weapons legally. not even the american government could take over the country should it decide to go against the constitution.
we can; have; and will continue to be attacked. just as almost every country has. the UK has has many more attacks in the same amount of time. (and foiled attempts). the idea that america could be taken by anyone is pure nuttery.
Oh.
Man.
I have to give you credit.
I will concede the following:
I should have never tried to argue the logic of an invasion against America. It was a slippery slope, that i thought illustrated the validity of the concept originaly presented.
It didn't.
All it did was confuse the issue.
The real issue is that lots and lots of Iraqis have died, and that the United States is to blame as the primary entity responsible.
The map was a simple attempt at showing those deaths,
as equated to terms Americans might more easily understand.
I guess, in that respect, the question of a successful invasion against America is irrelevant.
The fact that you would like to deny that the US is the entity primarily responsible for those deaths is the real argument here.
If the orignal lengthy response i issued doesn't prove that the US could be invaded, it does illustrate in various manners that the burden of responsibility does fall squarely on the shoulders of the United States.If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?0 -
the map shows about a quarter of the map in red yet the total population is 4%!!! thats a little ridiculous if you ask me.
the map is propaganda. does that map look like it represents the percentages objectively? you could take all the red states away and replace them with one red state in a populated area, such as Florida, and it could appear that far less have died.0 -
DriftingByTheStorm wrote:
The fact that you would like to deny that the US is the entity primarily responsible for those deaths is the real argument here.
.
i would think those pulling the triggers and detonating the bombs are the ones primarily responsible. US has responsibility, too, but not exclusively.0 -
MrSmith wrote:the map shows about a quarter of the map in red yet the total population is 4%!!! thats a little ridiculous if you ask me.
the map is propaganda. does that map look like it represents the percentages objectively? you could take all the red states away and replace them with one red state in a populated area, such as Florida, and it could appear that far less have died.
I guess it's all how you look at it.
The map is factualy correct.
You call it propaganda simply because the creator chose to use a large number of low population states to indicate that percentage as an illustrative measure.
You don't think that is a fair illustration?
Sure you could make JUST florida red,
but then only Floridians would see the message.
But you put most of the heartland states in red and suddenly you have America's attention ... in theory.
Or you just have people saying the map is propaganda.
What ever.
I say it is simply an illustration of a point that you find inconvenient and uncomfortable. Thus you choose to discredit it by essentialy arguing, "well, yeah. i mean - it is correct, but ... they could have done it this way instead and made far less of a point to the very audience they were attempting to reach!"
Yeah.
Okay.
:(MrSmith wrote:i would think those pulling the triggers and detonating the bombs are the ones primarily responsible. US has responsibility, too, but not exclusively.
When a drunk driver plows head on in to someone who isn't wearing a seatbelt and that person goes flying through their windshield as a result, who is the one primarily responsible?
The one who CREATED the situation -- the drunk driver?
Or the person who commited the contributory action -- the person who didn't buckle up?
The United States CREATED the situation.
Those doing the killing have engaged in a contributory action -- they are seized upon an opportunity ... which WE created.
You can slice it whichever way you want.
I guess i can't make you see the light, only shine it on your face.
:(If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?0 -
DriftingByTheStorm wrote:Oh.
Man.
I have to give you credit.
I will concede the following:
I should have never tried to argue the logic of an invasion against America. It was a slippery slope, that i thought illustrated the validity of the concept originaly presented.
It didn't.
All it did was confuse the issue.
The real issue is that lots and lots of Iraqis have died, and that the United States is to blame as the primary entity responsible.
The map was a simple attempt at showing those deaths,
as equated to terms Americans might more easily understand.
I guess, in that respect, the question of a successful invasion against America is irrelevant.
The fact that you would like to deny that the US is the entity primarily responsible for those deaths is the real argument here.
If the orignal lengthy response i issued doesn't prove that the US could be invaded, it does illustrate in various manners that the burden of responsibility does fall squarely on the shoulders of the United States.
i suppose we were primarily responsable for killing hitler and taking all the land the german people aquired too.0 -
DriftingByTheStorm wrote:You call it propaganda simply because the creator chose to use a large number of low population states to indicate that percentage as an illustrative measure.
uh...yeah. you pretty much nailed it. thats pretty much what propaganda is. skewed viewpoints
if a foxnews chose to highlight new jersey or something and said "Its only a tiny bit of the US." Then everyone would be up in arms over how its US propaganda.
why the double standard? i dont see a difference.0 -
DriftingByTheStorm wrote:
When a drunk driver plows head on in to someone who isn't wearing a seatbelt and that person goes flying through their windshield as a result, who is the one primarily responsible?
The one who CREATED the situation -- the drunk driver?
Or the person who commited the contributory action -- the person who didn't buckle up?
:(
suicide bombers and death squads are equivalent to seat belt violators now? I would say the person not wearing the seat belt was highly responsible considering he got into a car with a drunk, but whatever. this metaphor doesnt make much sense...
people should accept responsibility for their own actions, including the U.S, shiite, sunni or whoever...0 -
MrSmith wrote:I would say the person not wearing the seat belt was highly responsible considering he got into a car with a drunk, but whatever. this metaphor doesnt make much sense...
oh man.
reread please.
DRUNK man drives down a road.
Seatbeltless man in ANOTHER car.
DRUNK MAN HITS SEATBELTLESS MAN.
Comprende?MrSmith wrote:if a foxnews chose to highlight new jersey or something and said "Its only a tiny bit of the US." Then everyone would be up in arms over how its US propaganda.
Wow. I don't know what to say.
The truth is that your supposed quote for Fox News would actualy be acurate. UNLESS Fox was attempting to IMPLY that the "tiny bit" was a reference to population, there wouldn't be much to get up in arms about.
The map does not imply ANYTHING. It simply is attempting to represent population by highlighting certain states. Do you disagree that the populations of those states is 4% of US Population? Is it not then fair for the map to merely suggest the notion that if those numbers were transposed here, that if you lived in THOSE states, you would be a casualty?
Come on now.
What is your problem again? I would hope most Americans understand that populations in farm states are not nearly as high as those of costal states.
If they are ignorant of that, then the number FOUR PERCENT should remind them.
The map isn't misleading, your brain is.If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?0 -
DriftingByTheStorm wrote:The truth is that your supposed quote for Fox News would actualy be acurate. UNLESS Fox was attempting to IMPLY that the "tiny bit" was a reference to population, there wouldn't be much to get up in arms about.
The map does not imply ANYTHING. It simply is attempting to represent population by highlighting certain states. Do you disagree that the populations of those states is 4% of US Population? Is it not then fair for the map to merely suggest the notion that if those numbers were transposed here, that if you lived in THOSE states, you would be a casualty?
Come on now.
What is your problem again? I would hope most Americans understand that populations in farm states are not nearly as high as those of costal states.
If they are ignorant of that, then the number FOUR PERCENT should remind them.
The map isn't misleading, your brain is.
how could you say it doesn't IMPLY anything? a full QUARTER OF THE COUNTRY's LANDMASS is in red! not 4%, but 25%! Why show a fucking map at all? just say 4% and be done with it.
propaganda loves to use strong visual imagery to offset "hard" facts. Thats why old soviet propaganda posters look so fucking cool! you are being naive.0 -
oh on the other thing i misread your post. But i'm not going to argue over a metaphor. the comparison doesnt really apply, but whatever. the suicide bombers and death squads were just innocents in the wrong place at the wrong time. i get it.0
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Think you did a great job at trying to explain this to the "people". I see that some "people" refuse to understand or see the other side.
I thoroughly agree with the explanation given.
Thanks!!DriftingByTheStorm wrote:Well. Your argument seems scorching hot on the face of it, but just under the surface it is half-cooked.
Here is what you, sir, fail to mention.
Iraq, like America, was a soverign country, with its own 'class' structure, civil order, and system of law.
Like America, it had its own subcultures and groups of different belief that "got along" based on the order imposed upon them. They also had a constitution.
Perhaps you didn't realize that when we occupied their country we decided that their constitution sucked. Yes, thats right. We just through it out along with their leader and all civil order. Oh, then we wrote them a new one, failed to let anyone read it the entire time we were drafting it, handed out an outdated copy the day of elections, but only to 1\3rd of the voting public, rewrote it that same day, and asked them to vote on it.
So ...
lets not beat around the bush all day. Lets get down to it.
Here in America we have a class structure. We have different groups that get along, generally speaking, because we have laws and we have an order imposed. Oh, we also have a constitution.
Now, you have to think about the following in an unamerican fashion, because what hapened to iraq (ok, WE happened to Iraq) was "un-iraqi". Follow? Okay here goes.
Say the Iraqis come over here and they invade our country.
They overthrow Bush and his gang, give him a mock trial and summarily execute him. No harm there as far as i see, but lets move on.
I guess we should start with the people.
At this point, nothing else withstanding, they are probably going ape shit.
I mean all the punks, the anarchists, shit-bag-motherfuckers, the KKK, the Neo-Nazis, the minorities, any of the oppressed ... all these people see opportunity.
"You mean we have no federal government?" cry the masses? "Oh shit"!
"Fuck yea! Lets go riot. We'll loot all the stores, and burn shit and steal what we don't burn" say the punks and the anarchists and the shit bag motherfuckers. It will be fun. Hell yeah!
"Lets go find us some niggers to lynch", the Klan bemuse in excited haste.
"Lets follow the Klan around and kill us some negros too. But fuck it. Why stop there? Lets get us some slimy jews too." say the Neo-Nazis with sinister grins.
"Well fuck me. I ain't goin out like this. We best go steel some guns from the pawn shop and load up before those KKK bitches come a'knockin" is the catchphrase of most blacks in the country.
OK. FREEZEFRAME.
You see a trend developing?
Yeah. Chaos!
The country is in fucking chaos!
You have all these different groups chomping at the bit, and i think we can ALL agree that America is a far bit more diverse than Iraq and their paultry sunnis, kurds, and shiites. Hell we have people from every damn nationality on earth in our country! What the fuck is going to happen when all these people have to coexist togeather in the same country with NO LAW and more guns than any other place in the universe?
Easy. LOTS AND LOTS OF MURDER!
I mean holy fuck. Holywood watch out.
This place is going to be lit up.
Shit on fire everywhere, guns a blaze!
BUT IT GETS BETTER
Oh yes. MUCH "BETTER"
Mmm hmm. You see, the Iraqis have a plan.
Oh yeah. Fuck you guys, this is Iraqi-ica now, they gonna rewrite the constitution. You heard me, rewrite the goddamn constitution.
The Bill Of Rights? Fuck that who needs it.
Womens right to vote?
Nope
Black can vote?
Not anymore.
18 year olds?
Not a chance.
Free speech?
No.
Free religion?
Yeah right.
Free to protest, petition, or peacably assemble? I'm thinking not, bob.
Drink alcohol?
Thats a sin.
Vote for a senator?
Nah. We're gonna change the way things run around here, bub.
Got another favorite part of the constitution?
FUCK IT! FUCK YOU! SUCK IT UP BIG BOY! CHANGE IS COMING!
Okay.
What do the Iraqis decide is "best for America"?
Oh well, here is just a sample of what may be on the table:
1. Nationalize the oil fields. Sorry Bush. Sorry Texas. Sorry to most any of the current aristocracy, you're fucked. No oil $ for you. In fact, we are going to take that fucking oil and ship it back to Iraq. Yeah. we really need oil over there. Har Har.
2. Seizure of bank assets. Yep, sorry rich fucks, we're taking your money, it belongs to the state now. Uh huh. We need to help pay for this war, which we started against you. Ha ha.
3. Nationalization of schools. Oh shit. This is not much of a stretch, but yeah, one school system run by the Iraqis and we are going to teach you a whole lot about Iraq and the way things work over there. A whole lot.
4. Seizure of real property. Uh huh. All you golf course lovers, suck it. All you oceanfront property owners, thats Baghdad Bob's house now. etc etc.
FREEZEFRAME.
The list could go on and on. The point is, they invaded US and change OUR laws. They decided what flies. You see a few more people getting pissed off and going crazy apeshit nuts ballistic? Yeah i thought so.
FREEZEFRAME.
Oh shit. I TOTALLY FORGOT.
Did i mention you ...
have no water most of the time
have no electricity most of the time
lots of your infrastructure is bombed to hell
and some of your family members are dead or missing
See some more people getting REALLY PISSED OFF AND READY TO FIGHT?
Desperate, angry, destitute, mentaly anguished people who would probably do all kinds of crazy shit for all kinds of reasons!
ARE YOU TAKING NOTES?
Stop me when i get off fucking base, cause i feel i am like way out on the verge of edge city here!
Some how i get the feeling that the 4% is WOEFULLY LOW compared to what it would really be, should that shit be pulled off here.
Your [ir]rationalization was even worse than the cited direct comparison and failed to take in to account the fact that we imposed our cultural values upon them and rewrote their own laws while failing to provide them with basic humanitarian aid like water and electricity -- all the while telling them it was in their best interest.
[Oh and did i ever tell you that the UN resolution that allowed us to take unilateral control over iraq stipulated that we NOT change any law unless absolutely necessary to the stability of their country, and that we ensure immediately that all action possible be taken to restore basic conditions of humanitarian need -- like water and electricity?
Yeah fuck that. It was just a stupid UN resolution. Everyone else violates them. We'll just follow suit. Screw your constitution Iraq. We have a much better one ... i mean, for us ... haha ... and screw your power and water ... you deal with it. Oh, can you show us the quickest way to your oil fields? Thanks!]
No.
Thank YOU buddy.
Thank YOU!
:(Troubled souls unite, we got ourselves tonight
I am fuel, you are friends, we got the means to make amends
I am lost, I'm no guide, but I'm by your side
I am right by your side... PJ0 -
MrSmith wrote:oh on the other thing i misread your post. But i'm not going to argue over a metaphor. the comparison doesnt really apply, but whatever. the suicide bombers and death squads were just innocents in the wrong place at the wrong time. i get it.
You are right, it is not a perfect metaphor.
But one thing IS clear.
The fault most certainly does not lie with the Iraqi PEOPLE.
Again,
if someone toppled our government, and all the criminals came out of the woodwork and started shooting up the masses ... who would you blame then?
I think it does help to think in those terms.
So think about it. You are sitting on your couch minding your own business, and some other government bombs the fuck out of washington, kills all the statesmen. They take over the country.
[Hey man, just go with it, ok? This is an analogy.]
The next day criminals are out in the streets and running crazy.
One of them comes up and shoots your mother and rapes your daughter.
Who would you really blame for that?
No really. What about the next time when you get mugged in the street.
And the next time when your brother gets beat down. And the next time when a bomb goes off at the super market and kills your best friend. Then a month later your neighborhood is a warzone. Occupation soldiers patrol the neighborhood and go house to house. Fighting breaks out all the time between them and the "insurgents", random groups within America fighting the "invaders" and trying to set up their own control.
Are you going to blame all those individual people and the ones fighting the soldiers that took down your government, or are you gonna start to blame the bastards that invaded and fucked up your country?
Thats all i'm saying.
And no, the map is still not misleading.
If you can't look at the numbers and then look at the picture, then back at the numbers, then back at the picture ... and simply say ... "wow, i didn't know all those states add up 4% of the population. Man i have friends in that state that state and that state. That would be sad if they died." then i'm sorry.If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?0 -
Nice work Driftin'.
Unfortunate, some people here...
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.0 -
DriftingByTheStorm wrote:You are right, it is not a perfect metaphor.
But one thing IS clear.
The fault most certainly does not lie with the Iraqi PEOPLE.
Again,
if someone toppled our government, and all the criminals came out of the woodwork and started shooting up the masses ... who would you blame then?
I think it does help to think in those terms.
So think about it. You are sitting on your couch minding your own business, and some other government bombs the fuck out of washington, kills all the statesmen. They take over the country.
[Hey man, just go with it, ok? This is an analogy.]
The next day criminals are out in the streets and running crazy.
One of them comes up and shoots your mother and rapes your daughter.
Who would you really blame for that?
No really. What about the next time when you get mugged in the street.
And the next time when your brother gets beat down. And the next time when a bomb goes off at the super market and kills your best friend. Then a month later your neighborhood is a warzone. Occupation soldiers patrol the neighborhood and go house to house. Fighting breaks out all the time between them and the "insurgents", random groups within America fighting the "invaders" and trying to set up their own control.
Are you going to blame all those individual people and the ones fighting the soldiers that took down your government, or are you gonna start to blame the bastards that invaded and fucked up your country?
Thats all i'm saying.
And no, the map is still not misleading.
If you can't look at the numbers and then look at the picture, then back at the numbers, then back at the picture ... and simply say ... "wow, i didn't know all those states add up 4% of the population. Man i have friends in that state that state and that state. That would be sad if they died." then i'm sorry.
I don't know how anyone could read this and not see where you are coming from. It's really not that hard.0 -
DriftingByTheStorm wrote:You are right, it is not a perfect metaphor.
But one thing IS clear.
The fault most certainly does not lie with the Iraqi PEOPLE.
Again,
if someone toppled our government, and all the criminals came out of the woodwork and started shooting up the masses ... who would you blame then?
I think it does help to think in those terms.
So think about it. You are sitting on your couch minding your own business, and some other government bombs the fuck out of washington, kills all the statesmen. They take over the country.
[Hey man, just go with it, ok? This is an analogy.]
The next day criminals are out in the streets and running crazy.
One of them comes up and shoots your mother and rapes your daughter.
Who would you really blame for that?
No really. What about the next time when you get mugged in the street.
And the next time when your brother gets beat down. And the next time when a bomb goes off at the super market and kills your best friend. Then a month later your neighborhood is a warzone. Occupation soldiers patrol the neighborhood and go house to house. Fighting breaks out all the time between them and the "insurgents", random groups within America fighting the "invaders" and trying to set up their own control.
Are you going to blame all those individual people and the ones fighting the soldiers that took down your government, or are you gonna start to blame the bastards that invaded and fucked up your country?
Thats all i'm saying.
And no, the map is still not misleading.
If you can't look at the numbers and then look at the picture, then back at the numbers, then back at the picture ... and simply say ... "wow, i didn't know all those states add up 4% of the population. Man i have friends in that state that state and that state. That would be sad if they died." then i'm sorry.
Hey I'm not saying American gov't isn't largely to blame, all i'm saying is at some point you've got to have individual responsibility. People shouldn't suddenly morph into murdering, raping, thugs just because the gov't doesn't exist. I don't know what i would do if put in that situation, but the circumstances don't make it right for me to start murdering innocent people i don't like.0 -
MrSmith wrote:Hey I'm not saying American gov't isn't largely to blame, all i'm saying is at some point you've got to have individual responsibility. People shouldn't suddenly morph into murdering, raping, thugs just because the gov't doesn't exist. I don't know what i would do if put in that situation, but the circumstances don't make it right for me to start murdering innocent people i don't like.
for once i agree with you. If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?0 -
DriftingByTheStorm wrote:for once i agree with you.
we agree! Miraculous! there is hope for humanity after all!0
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