abortion / animal rights / death penalty / etc.

2

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  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    deadnothingbetter wrote:
    my cousin is probably the biggest liberal that i've come to know on a more personal level. he believes in and supports gay marriages, is opposed to the death penalty, hates bush, believes in animal rights..... but he doesn't believe in abortions, or at least, he wouldn't participate in one.

    That'd be kinda hard to do. For "him", wouldn't it?
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  • deadnothingbetter
    deadnothingbetter Posts: 2,202
    gue_barium wrote:
    That'd be kinda hard to do. For "him", wouldn't it?
    yeah, oops... i guess i meant to say that he doesn't really "support" it.
    This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    Uncle Leo wrote:
    As a liberal...

    Animal rights: I think PETA needs to be WAY more pragmatic, as there are some legitimate cruelty issues. By no means do I consider myself a crusader, but still feel that mistreatment of pets, etc. is wrong. If the implication is that liberals favor animals over people (or hold them on the same level), I don't think that is usually the case

    Capital Punishment: Most libs are not comfortable with state-sponsored killing. Personally, I was pro-capital punishment for years. But just the thought that even one innocent person could be put to death is enough to make me anti-capital punishment. To suggest that any mistakes like this are worth it because the death penalty is just so noble is odd to me. The value of death vs. life in prison (which is, ironically, usually less expensive than the death penalty), is not so great that it is worth those mistakes.

    Abortion: My view will probably piss off pro-lifers more than most lib views. The following two reasons:
    1. Overpopulation. The last thing the planet needs is more people, particularly unwanted people. It's actually part of the reason I don't want kids (though its mainly the times I see them throwing fits in public).
    2. I do not know when it is "alive" or "human" but I do believe this...you are destroying nobody's hopes and dreams. The fetus has no friends, no dreams and its termination will really not be a loss for anyone. The world will not miss that fetus. In other words, "big fuckin' deal." Seriously. The unborn that so many advocate for, nobely stating that they are "fighting for those who cannot defend themselves" will only be "missed" in theoretical terms. All that said, a legal line has to be drawn, because you could make the same argument about a newborn. For me, it actually does go in line with what some of the above said. I am more of a first trimester proponant, because, while my "no hopes and dreams" argument continues to hold true, you'll be stunned to know that the further along it gets, the less comfortable I am. Perhaps I contradict myself, but that is how I feel.

    Abortion is a consequence of an open and free society, I think. It is also a consequence of poor education. It is also a consequence of the christian right fundamentalist's crazed crusade for abstinance.
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  • Derrick
    Derrick Posts: 475
    soulsinging wrote:
    i see no problem with letting them pass. in that case, such medical decisions are made by loved ones... parents, spouses, etc. they decide whether the person lives or dies, whether the life support is continued. i see abortion the same... a loved one making the decision as to whether or not the life support is maintained.

    Note to self: be grateful soulsinging is not in family. End note.
  • Derrick
    Derrick Posts: 475
    One of the questions I ask people regarding abortion has to do with the opposite end of things. Consider this example:

    - Joe is on death row for committing many, many heinous crimes over the years, rape, murder, growing pot, whatever....you get the idea. He's scheduled for execution next week.
    - Bob the prison guard is under stress. His wife left him, he's feeling pissed, whatever. To relieve stress, he shoots Joe in the head a few days ahead of Joe's execution, effectively killing him and maybe saving the state a few bucks.

    Should Bob be punished in a court of law? Legally? Yes. Morally? Probably.

    How does this relate to abortion? No one really cares for Joe, given his past, but Bob takes out his frustrations on him and will be punished accordingly. In terms of an abortion, it's clear no one cared for an aborted fetus, but no one is being punished either. Why should a mother be allowed to take her frustrations out on an unborn fetus with no punishment? Even when I was pro-choice, the answer to that last question eluded me.
  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    Derrick wrote:
    One of the questions I ask people regarding abortion has to do with the opposite end of things. Consider this example:

    - Joe is on death row for committing many, many heinous crimes over the years, rape, murder, growing pot, whatever....you get the idea. He's scheduled for execution next week.
    - Bob the prison guard is under stress. His wife left him, he's feeling pissed, whatever. To relieve stress, he shoots Joe in the head a few days ahead of Joe's execution, effectively killing him and maybe saving the state a few bucks.

    Should Bob be punished in a court of law? Legally? Yes. Morally? Probably.

    How does this relate to abortion? No one really cares for Joe, given his past, but Bob takes out his frustrations on him and will be punished accordingly. In terms of an abortion, it's clear no one cared for an aborted fetus, but no one is being punished either. Why should a mother be allowed to take her frustrations out on an unborn fetus with no punishment? Even when I was pro-choice, the answer to that last question eluded me.

    Take out her frustrations?

    What kind of fucked up assinine thinking is this?
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  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    gue_barium wrote:
    Abortion is a consequence of an open and free society, I think. It is also a consequence of poor education. It is also a consequence of the christian right fundamentalist's crazed crusade for abstinance.

    And that Crusade ignores the fundamental facts on human sexuality, free society, and access to education.

    It is an Authoritarian Crusade, by people who tell us they have a god-given responsibilty to their countrymen to miseducate, oppress, and try to get a suck and fuck in the airport restroom when they can.

    Derrick, go fuck yourself.
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  • Kat
    Kat Posts: 4,956
    It's time to knock off the personal comments on each other. Just debate the issues.

    That sticky about dropping bombs on each other at the top of the page is not invisible.

    See the Posting Guidelines for a reminder of your agreement with us.

    Thank you.
    Admin
    Falling down,...not staying down
  • markymark550
    markymark550 Columbia, SC Posts: 5,217
    Derrick wrote:
    One of the questions I ask people regarding abortion has to do with the opposite end of things. Consider this example:

    - Joe is on death row for committing many, many heinous crimes over the years, rape, murder, growing pot, whatever....you get the idea. He's scheduled for execution next week.
    - Bob the prison guard is under stress. His wife left him, he's feeling pissed, whatever. To relieve stress, he shoots Joe in the head a few days ahead of Joe's execution, effectively killing him and maybe saving the state a few bucks.

    Should Bob be punished in a court of law? Legally? Yes. Morally? Probably.

    How does this relate to abortion? No one really cares for Joe, given his past, but Bob takes out his frustrations on him and will be punished accordingly. In terms of an abortion, it's clear no one cared for an aborted fetus, but no one is being punished either. Why should a mother be allowed to take her frustrations out on an unborn fetus with no punishment? Even when I was pro-choice, the answer to that last question eluded me.
    In Bob's case it's not Bob's responsibility nor his job to take Joe's case in his own hands. In the case of a women who is pregnant, it is her job and responsibility to deal with her pregnancy and if her choice is abortion, then that's her choice.
  • rldriver2
    rldriver2 Posts: 27
    markymark550 wrote:
    In Bob's case it's not Bob's responsibility nor his job to take Joe's case in his own hands. In the case of a women who is pregnant, it is her job and responsibility to deal with her pregnancy and if her choice is abortion, then that's her choice.

    That's where the whole pro-choice argument escapes me. What makes a child (born or unborn) part of a woman's body or an object that can be thrown away if it's not wanted? The pro-choice mind set that puts so little emphasis on the fact that the choice to have an abortion is in fact a choice that terminates a human life. A fetus is not like the arm you get a tattoo on or the nose you get surgically altered. IMO it's not a body part that falls under the "freedom of a woman to do what she wants with her body" as is so often the argument.

    Nine out of ten times it's the people that share markymark550's sentiment that are shouting about cruelty of puting a convicted murderer to death. How is an innocent life human life of less value than that of a life long criminal or an ill tempered Pit Bull?
    Raleigh 1992 - Raleigh 2003 - Charlotte 2003 - Asheville 2004 - Lollapolooza 2007
  • callen
    callen Posts: 6,388
    rldriver2 wrote:
    First of all: I'm all about having a civilized discussion and I'm certainly not into Bible thumping to back up my views (glancing at Juberoo).

    Things are a little slow on the Moving Train this morning so I'm just trying to stir things up a bit (evil grin). In other words, take my name calling with a grain of salt.

    Why do hippy liberals ;-) tend to be about animal rights and anti death penalty scenes out of respect for life and it's quality but at the same time support abortion rights with respect for choice over life? Exclude extenuating circumstances that involve rape, incest, and the mother's life. Why does the concern for the freedom to be alive and well not extend to something as innocent and pure as a newly conceived life?

    Fire away...

    duh....cause couple of cells does not a human make....end of thread.
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • rldriver2
    rldriver2 Posts: 27
    markymark550 wrote:
    In Bob's case it's not Bob's responsibility nor his job to take Joe's case in his own hands. In the case of a women who is pregnant, it is her job and responsibility to deal with her pregnancy and if her choice is abortion, then that's her choice.
    It was her (and her partner's) responsibilty to take appropriate action to avoid a pregnancy in the first place if indeed they did not want it. If they fail in this, it becomes their responsibility to make sure that the life of their child is protected. Having an abortion is not fulfilling a responsibility, it is running from it IMO.
    Raleigh 1992 - Raleigh 2003 - Charlotte 2003 - Asheville 2004 - Lollapolooza 2007
  • markymark550
    markymark550 Columbia, SC Posts: 5,217
    rldriver2 wrote:
    That's where the whole pro-choice argument escapes me. What makes a child (born or unborn) part of a woman's body or an object that can be thrown away if it's not wanted? The pro-choice mind set that puts so little emphasis on the fact that the choice to have an abortion is in fact a choice that terminates a human life. A fetus is not like the arm you get a tattoo on or the nose you get surgically altered. IMO it's not a body part that falls under the "freedom of a woman to do what she wants with her body" as is so often the argument.

    Nine out of ten times it's the people that share markymark550's sentiment that are shouting about cruelty of puting a convicted murderer to death. How is an innocent life human life of less value than that of a life long criminal or an ill tempered Pit Bull?
    First of all, that's where you run back into the argument of what constitutes life, conception or birth? I believe life begins at birth and therefore am not against abortions.

    Secondly, since I haven't discussed my views on everything that has been discussed in this thread, you have no idea what my sentiment is. The people that share my sentiment have no problems with capital punishment. I don't have any problems with the death sentence, so don't bring the whole you want to kill a baby but let a convicted murderer live speech to me.
  • rldriver2
    rldriver2 Posts: 27
    callen wrote:
    duh....cause couple of cells does not a human make....end of thread.
    weak, hippy...

    at what point does it become a human life?
    Raleigh 1992 - Raleigh 2003 - Charlotte 2003 - Asheville 2004 - Lollapolooza 2007
  • markymark550
    markymark550 Columbia, SC Posts: 5,217
    rldriver2 wrote:
    It was her (and her partner's) responsibilty to take appropriate action to avoid a pregnancy in the first place if indeed they did not want it. If they fail in this, it becomes their responsibility to make sure that the life of their child is protected. Having an abortion is not fulfilling a responsibility, it is running from it IMO.
    ok, maybe my word choice was bad there

    instead of responsibility use place

    it was not Bob's place to take Joe's case into his own hands while it's the state's place to fulfill his sentence

    it is the pregnant woman's place to deal with her own pregnancy in the manner that best suits her
  • rldriver2
    rldriver2 Posts: 27
    markymark550 wrote:
    First of all, that's where you run back into the argument of what constitutes life, conception or birth? I believe life begins at birth and therefore am not against abortions.

    Secondly, since I haven't discussed my views on everything that has been discussed in this thread, you have no idea what my sentiment is. The people that share my sentiment have no problems with capital punishment. I don't have any problems with the death sentence, so don't bring the whole you want to kill a baby but let a convicted murderer live speech to me.
    Check out the first post then and you'll see why I was assuming that you might be taking an anti-capital punishment stance. For doing so I apologize.

    If life begins at birth, why is it necessary to surgically "kill" the fetus in some cases before aborting it?
    Raleigh 1992 - Raleigh 2003 - Charlotte 2003 - Asheville 2004 - Lollapolooza 2007
  • callen
    callen Posts: 6,388
    rldriver2 wrote:
    weak, hippy...

    at what point does it become a human life?

    Better to be a weak hippie than an ignorant juvenile.....sorry Kat he/she started it.... (-;

    now addressing your post.....you tell me........magically once ole spermy gets in there its "shazam" a human?

    well its not much more than the sum of the two parts..so no wasted sperms or eggs..all for fertilization.

    course humans are pretty god awful mammals anyway..and a few less won't hurt this wonderful planet god created for us.
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • markymark550
    markymark550 Columbia, SC Posts: 5,217
    rldriver2 wrote:
    Check out the first post then and you'll see why I was assuming that you might be taking an anti-capital punishment stance. For doing so I apologize.

    If life begins at birth, why is it necessary to surgically "kill" the fetus in some cases before aborting it?
    It's ok, I just hate generalizations.

    Why put kill in quotation marks? Doing so implies that the doctor isn't actually ending a fetus' life (not that it was alive to begin with, just using your point of view), which is contradictory to your whole point.
  • rldriver2
    rldriver2 Posts: 27
    callen wrote:
    Better to be a weak hippie than an ignorant juvenile.....sorry Kat he/she started it.... (-;

    now addressing your post.....you tell me........magically once ole spermy gets in there its "shazam" a human?

    well its not much more than the sum of the two parts..so no wasted sperms or eggs..all for fertilization.

    course humans are pretty god awful mammals anyway..and a few less won't hurt this wonderful planet god created for us.

    It's not an egg or sperm that gets aborted. Ole Spermy gets there, fertilizes an egg and indeed, "shazam" a human imo.
    Raleigh 1992 - Raleigh 2003 - Charlotte 2003 - Asheville 2004 - Lollapolooza 2007
  • rldriver2
    rldriver2 Posts: 27
    markymark550 wrote:
    It's ok, I just hate generalizations.

    Why put kill in quotation marks? Doing so implies that the doctor isn't actually ending a fetus' life (not that it was alive to begin with, just using your point of view), which is contradictory to your whole point.

    When I typed "kill" what I really meant was KILL.

    Thanks for the lively discussion people.
    Raleigh 1992 - Raleigh 2003 - Charlotte 2003 - Asheville 2004 - Lollapolooza 2007

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