Why aren't more environmentalists vegetarians?

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  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    polaris wrote:
    but buffalo are like elk and deer ... they are natural foragers ... cows are not
    Sure they are. What do you think all those cowboys are out there rounding up? Almost all of our beef cattle roam far and wide (or, whatever acreage is available) just like any other hooved animal. I helped brand and vaccinate my uncle's hereford's one year on his ranch. It took a couple of days to round them up into a pen, and another long long day getting them branded and vaccinated. They were very wild, as they rarely came in contact with humans.
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  • Riverrunner
    Riverrunner Posts: 2,419
    gue_barium wrote:
    Sure they are. What do you think all those cowboys are out there rounding up? Almost all of our beef cattle roam far and wide (or, whatever acreage is available) just like any other hooved animal. I helped brand and vaccinate my uncle's hereford's one year on his ranch. It took a couple of days to round them up into a pen, and another long long day getting them branded and vaccinated. They were very wild, as they rarely came in contact with humans.

    Which raises another issue on the environment and meat. AND I am NOT saying that your uncle's ranch falls in this category, BUT many, if not most, of the ranches "out west" run their cattle on public property. That is property that is owned by the tax payers. Technically, it is BLM property (Bureau of Land Management). BLM leases our public property to ranchers - and this is hundreds of thousands of acres of our property. They lease it dirt cheap.... almost free. You may ask, so what? Well, for one thing our public property is being used to subsidy ranchers/the meat industry. Second, one of the primary reasons that wild horsers and burros are rounded up and sold to slaughterhouses is that they are in competition with these cattle and the ranchers put pressure on BLM to "get rid of the wild horses and burros." There is plenty of room for the wild horses and burros if BLM wouldn't give the land to the beef industry!
    The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way it treats its animals. Ghandi
  • RolandTD20Kdrummer
    RolandTD20Kdrummer Posts: 13,066
    Riverrunner wrote:
    I am not an expert by any means, but as an age grouper triathlete I read a lot about nutrition in the magazines, the web, etc. The problem is not protein. Beans have a lot of protein and you wouldn't have to eat a ton to get your protein, plus there are lots of other high quality sources of protein, including nuts, peanut butter, soy products, etc.

    From what I have read, the nutritional element that may be missing from a pure vegan diet is vitamin B12. Thus, it is advised that vegans and vegetarians that don't eat much dairy to take a vitamin b supplement daily.

    I was just wondering how to get in the 1.5 - 2 grams (or higher) of protein per lb of lean bodyweight required for hardcore muscle building. i.e in around the 150 - 300 grams protein a day range...

    I can't imagine any hardcore bodybuilders are vegan.
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
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  • polaris
    polaris Posts: 3,527
    Riverrunner wrote:
    I am not an expert by any means, but as an age grouper triathlete I read a lot about nutrition in the magazines, the web, etc. The problem is not protein. Beans have a lot of protein and you wouldn't have to eat a ton to get your protein, plus there are lots of other high quality sources of protein, including nuts, peanut butter, soy products, etc.

    From what I have read, the nutritional element that may be missing from a pure vegan diet is vitamin B12. Thus, it is advised that vegans and vegetarians that don't eat much dairy to take a vitamin b supplement daily.

    one of the primary concerns with a vegan diet is iron especially in women ... there are lot of food that contain iron but the problem is the conversion of that iron by your body ... red meat has the highest conversion rate vs your beans and legumes ...

    having said that ... i do believe humans can live a healthy life on a vegetarian diet ...
  • Urban Hiker
    Urban Hiker Posts: 1,312
    RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:
    I was just wondering how to get in the 1.5 - 2 grams (or higher) of protein per lb of lean bodyweight required for hardcore muscle building. i.e in around the 150 - 300 grams protein a day range...

    I can't imagine any hardcore bodybuilders are vegan.

    How about this guy ----> http://veganmusclepower.org/
    Walking can be a real trip
    ***********************
    "We've laid the groundwork. It's like planting the seeds. And next year, it's spring." - Nader
    ***********************
    Prepare for tending to your garden, America.
  • polaris
    polaris Posts: 3,527
    gue_barium wrote:
    Sure they are. What do you think all those cowboys are out there rounding up? Almost all of our beef cattle roam far and wide (or, whatever acreage is available) just like any other hooved animal. I helped brand and vaccinate my uncle's hereford's one year on his ranch. It took a couple of days to round them up into a pen, and another long long day getting them branded and vaccinated. They were very wild, as they rarely came in contact with humans.

    from: http://www.thebeckoning.com/environment/cattle/grazing.html

    The main problem many environmentalists have with cattle grazing is that cattle are a non-native species to the environments in which they roam. Since cattle are non-natives, their impact on the environment is greater than native species like elk and deer. Cattle have not evolved in the ecosystems in which they have been placed, and therefore they do not co-exist with those ecosystems well. Whereas deer and elk are highly mobile foragers, cattle are stagnant foragers. What this means is that deer and elk move around so much that they do not overgraze an area or cause soil damage. Cattle on the other hand, will often remain in the same area until they have eaten all or most of the edible material there. Only after most of the vegetation has been eaten will they move on. (10) Cattle also need more forage than elk or deer.
  • Urban Hiker
    Urban Hiker Posts: 1,312
    polaris wrote:
    one of the primary concerns with a vegan diet is iron especially in women ... there are lot of food that contain iron but the problem is the conversion of that iron by your body ... red meat has the highest conversion rate vs your beans and legumes ...

    having said that ... i do believe humans can live a healthy life on a vegetarian diet ...

    Some quoted text from here: http://www.vegansociety.com/html/food/nutrition/iron.php


    "Vegans have a high dietary iron intake and although iron from plant sources is less well absorbed than that from meat, high levels of vitamin C in the diet enhances iron absorption. Studies show that the iron status of vegans is usually normal, and iron deficiency is no more common than in the general population."
    Walking can be a real trip
    ***********************
    "We've laid the groundwork. It's like planting the seeds. And next year, it's spring." - Nader
    ***********************
    Prepare for tending to your garden, America.
  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    Riverrunner wrote:
    Which raises another issue on the environment and meat. AND I am NOT saying that your uncle's ranch falls in this category, BUT many, if not most, of the ranches "out west" run their cattle on public property. That is property that is owned by the tax payers. Technically, it is BLM property (Bureau of Land Management). BLM leases our public property to ranchers - and this is hundreds of thousands of acres of our property. They lease it dirt cheap.... almost free. You may ask, so what? Well, for one thing our public property is being used to subsidy ranchers/the meat industry. Second, one of the primary reasons that wild horsers and burros are rounded up and sold to slaughterhouses is that they are in competition with these cattle and the ranchers put pressure on BLM to "get rid of the wild horses and burros." There is plenty of room for the wild horses and burros if BLM wouldn't give the land to the beef industry!

    I don't think this is true. There is a lot of private property in the West that fell into the boundaries of the newly formed National Forest lands when that happened, but most of that private property remained private. I don't know how long the BLM has been around, but I'd have to think if what you're saying is true, then any of that leased cattle grazing program land hasn't been around for a very long time. As far as I know the greater majority of wild horses run wild in Nevada with some small herds in Utah, and Wyoming. (I saw a lone wild stallion once in Wyoming :) .

    Anyway, you bring up a lot of stuff. Do you have a link to support the BLM thing?
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  • RolandTD20Kdrummer
    RolandTD20Kdrummer Posts: 13,066
    Urban Hiker wrote:
    How about this guy ----> http://veganmusclepower.org/

    no fair black guy...genetically gifted and muscular already... :D

    thanks for the link though... I'll try to spec his diet..
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

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  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    polaris wrote:
    from: http://www.thebeckoning.com/environment/cattle/grazing.html

    The main problem many environmentalists have with cattle grazing is that cattle are a non-native species to the environments in which they roam. Since cattle are non-natives, their impact on the environment is greater than native species like elk and deer. Cattle have not evolved in the ecosystems in which they have been placed, and therefore they do not co-exist with those ecosystems well. Whereas deer and elk are highly mobile foragers, cattle are stagnant foragers. What this means is that deer and elk move around so much that they do not overgraze an area or cause soil damage. Cattle on the other hand, will often remain in the same area until they have eaten all or most of the edible material there. Only after most of the vegetation has been eaten will they move on. (10) Cattle also need more forage than elk or deer.

    Well, my uncle owned 5,000 acres, so I don't think those herfords were particularly stagnant. We had a hard time finding them.
    Another argument could be that there were once millions of buffalo where there are none now, as far as the overgrazing goes.
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  • RolandTD20Kdrummer
    RolandTD20Kdrummer Posts: 13,066
    I know this is slightly OT, but do animal rights or vegans think it's better that these animals never lived or experienced life at all? That would be reality if everyone was vegan. If someone dies tragically would it better if they were never born in the first place? hmm...

    http://www.all-creatures.org/articles/act-veg-vid-vegbbuilderkenwilliams.html
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • Riverrunner
    Riverrunner Posts: 2,419
    gue_barium wrote:
    Anyway, you bring up a lot of stuff. Do you have a link to support the BLM thing?

    Most of what I learned was from a couple of law school classes actually, and that would have been back in '91 and '92. However, I googled the subject and found these articles. Note: I didn't take time to read the articles in their entirety, just skimmed them. I think the third one is the best, by the way.

    http://www.thebeckoning.com/environment/cattle/grazing.html

    http://www.progress.org/ranch07.htm

    http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/PROGRAMS/grazing/index.html
    The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way it treats its animals. Ghandi
  • polaris
    polaris Posts: 3,527
    Urban Hiker wrote:
    Some quoted text from here: http://www.vegansociety.com/html/food/nutrition/iron.php


    "Vegans have a high dietary iron intake and although iron from plant sources is less well absorbed than that from meat, high levels of vitamin C in the diet enhances iron absorption. Studies show that the iron status of vegans is usually normal, and iron deficiency is no more common than in the general population."

    yes ... but that is something vegans have to be concerned with ... people normally assume iron is iron ...
  • halv
    halv Posts: 717
    RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:
    I was just wondering how to get in the 1.5 - 2 grams (or higher) of protein per lb of lean bodyweight required for hardcore muscle building. i.e in around the 150 - 300 grams protein a day range...

    I can't imagine any hardcore bodybuilders are vegan.


    http://www.veganbodybuilding.com/images.html
  • halv
    halv Posts: 717
    RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:
    I know this is slightly OT, but do animal rights or vegans think it's better that these animals never lived or experienced life at all? That would be reality if everyone was vegan. If someone dies tragically would it better if they were never born in the first place? hmm...

    http://www.all-creatures.org/articles/act-veg-vid-vegbbuilderkenwilliams.html

    I understand your question, but I feel we need to put ourselves in their position to answer that truthfully. For me, would I want to have a chickens life? Be born and pretty much right away be taken away from my mother, thrown to live in a jam packed shed with no natural sunlight while sucking up ammonia fumes, thrown into a cage at 6 weeks old and taken to be hung violently from my feet, have my neck slit and then scalded in boiling water?
    Or a pig, born indoors onto a concrete floor with a metal fence keeping me from my mom. As I grow I am still stuck inside in a cage with no room to turn around standing on a concrete floor, only to be herded into a truck packed with other pigs for 2-3 days without food or water, herded up a ramp to have a bolt shot into my head while fully concious? Or how about veal calves? ducks force-fed for foise-gras? Animals raised in cages for the fur industry?

    We could say we've given them life, but by the time we're done with them they'll wish they've never been born.
  • RolandTD20Kdrummer
    RolandTD20Kdrummer Posts: 13,066
    halv wrote:
    http://www.veganbodybuilding.com/images.html

    I just want to know how much soy, and various beans I gotta knock back every day... They don;t mention that....I'd probably be puking them up after a week of eating mass quantities daily

    As well, these guys probably never stop farting...
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • RolandTD20Kdrummer
    RolandTD20Kdrummer Posts: 13,066
    halv wrote:
    I understand your question, but I feel we need to put ourselves in their position to answer that truthfully. For me, would I want to have a chickens life? Be born and pretty much right away be taken away from my mother, thrown to live in a jam packed shed with no natural sunlight while sucking up ammonia fumes, thrown into a cage at 6 weeks old and taken to be hung violently from my feet, have my neck slit and then scalded in boiling water?
    Or a pig, born indoors onto a concrete floor with a metal fence keeping me from my mom. As I grow I am still stuck inside in a cage with no room to turn around standing on a concrete floor, only to be herded into a truck packed with other pigs for 2-3 days without food or water, herded up a ramp to have a bolt shot into my head while fully concious? Or how about veal calves? ducks force-fed for foise-gras? Animals raised in cages for the fur industry?

    We could say we've given them life, but by the time we're done with them they'll wish they've never been born.

    I think it's over reaction to a certain extent. If I lived in a crowded filthy dirt shack from birth as long as I was warm, properly fed, and under no direct physical threat, I probably wouldn't know any better to think otherwise. It's all point of reference. We all have to die at some point. I rather get a bolt to the head than suffer a heart attack, stroke, or cancer and die slowly and painfully over a period of hours, weeks, or months. Ultimately it's a lot more humane. A "natural" death is often far from humane and involves extended periods of suffering.

    The environmental impacts are pretty outrageous though, as posted earlier. That alone should be reason enough for people to adjust their diets. The fast food industry should be eliminated altogether.
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • Riverrunner
    Riverrunner Posts: 2,419
    RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:
    I think it's over reaction to a certain extent. If I lived in a crowded filthy dirt shack from birth as long as I was warm, properly fed, and under no direct physical threat, I probably wouldn't know any better to think otherwise. It's all point of reference. We all have to die at some point. I rather get a bolt to the head than suffer a heart attack, stroke, or cancer and die slowly and painfully over a period of hours, weeks, or months. Ultimately it's a lot more humane. A "natural" death is often far from humane and involves extended periods of suffering.

    The environmental impacts are pretty outrageous though, as posted earlier. That alone should be reason enough for people to adjust their diets. The fast food industry should be eliminated altogether.

    "Nothing will benefit human health and increase the chances for survival of life on earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet." —Albert Einstein
    The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way it treats its animals. Ghandi
  • stuckinline
    stuckinline Posts: 3,407
    RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:
    The fast food industry should be eliminated altogether.
    i absolutely agree with you! i can not understand how anyone could eat that crap.
  • sicnevol
    sicnevol Posts: 180
    halv wrote:
    http://www.veganbodybuilding.com/images.html
    Bodybuilding requires way less protien then most people think. If you can find me a vegan powerlifter, then i will be impressed.
    That's two things we've got, Tape and Time.

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