crazy calif liberals won't let us beat our children

gue_barium · January 2007

Collin wrote:

Was it because you explained the dangers of what he did or was it because of the spanks?

It was the spanks. I had told him the dangers before. The spanking reinforced it, I think.

soulsinging · January 2007

sponger wrote:

Obviously the spankings that your parents doled out to you robbed you of your ability to communicate. When they should have reasoned with you, they instead used a quicker and hassle-free approach.

And that's why you refuse to reason with jeffbr. You think he's incapable of receiving your message just as your parents believed the same about you.

typical liberal arrogance. if they wont play with me, ill declare myself victor. this is why you shoulda been spanked... maybe you'd realize you dont always get your way and people arent going to hold your hand and stroke your ego your entire life.

i was spanked. im hardly damaged by it. actually, i was hit with a belt. im still here. im not in therapy. i dont weep abotu it or think my parents dont love me. i just learned that if you break the rules, there are consequences.

soulsinging · January 2007

redrock wrote:

What is deemed 'controlled'? How hard do you spank before it's 'out of control'? Hitting is never a good way to punish... You remove a child from the 'situation', you explain to the child whatever he/she did is wrong (and why if they can understand), you give them time to cool off.

yeah, cos kids will all understand that. dyou have kids? you can't reason with them. they're not miniature adults and oftentimes dont understand what they've done wrong. no amount of "cool off" time will make them little logic machines.

mammasan · January 2007

soulsinging wrote:

yeah, cos kids will all understand that. dyou have kids? you can't reason with them. they're not miniature adults and oftentimes dont understand what they've done wrong. no amount of "cool off" time will make them little logic machines.

I agree that kids are not little adults and don't have the ability, yet, to reason with. Yet I don't think spanking is the way. I was spanked as a kid, my mother was lethal with her shoes. Her aim was uncanny. Like you I have no residual trauma from this. Personally though I don't find spanking to be an effective form of discipline. I feel that the child will refrain from doing what he/she did to receive the spanking because of fear of getting hit again, not because they learned to distinguish the difference between right and wrong. Again this is just my opinion and as I stated before that only parent's know what is best for their children and as long as the child is not being abused it is no one's business how they discipline that child.

soulsinging · January 2007

mammasan wrote:

I agree that kids are not little adults and don't have the ability, yet, to reason with. Yet I don't think spanking is the way. I was spanked as a kid, my mother was lethal with her shoes. Her aim was uncanny. Like you I have no residual trauma from this. Personally though I don't find spanking to be an effective form of discipline. I feel that the child will refrain from doing what he/she did to receive the spanking because of fear of getting hit again, not because they learned to distinguish the difference between right and wrong. Again this is just my opinion and as I stated before that only parent's know what is best for their children and as long as the child is not being abused it is no one's business how they discipline that child.

well, spanking needs to be accompanied by some sort of explanation or communication to be effective. just a spanking doesn't really do any good.

mammasan · January 2007

soulsinging wrote:

well, spanking needs to be accompanied by some sort of explanation or communication to be effective. just a spanking doesn't really do any good.

I understand that but how much can a 2 or 3 year old understand especially after just being stung in the hind quarters. Again just my personaly opinion.

angelica · January 2007

soulsinging wrote:

typical liberal arrogance. if they wont play with me, ill declare myself victor. this is why you shoulda been spanked... maybe you'd realize you dont always get your way and people arent going to hold your hand and stroke your ego your entire life.

i was spanked. im hardly damaged by it. actually, i was hit with a belt. im still here. im not in therapy. i dont weep abotu it or think my parents dont love me. i just learned that if you break the rules, there are consequences.

I find it interesting that you don't seem to see a connection between being hit as a child with some of some of the personal issues you've publicly shared on this board. Do you feel certain that being hit by your caregivers as a defenseless child does not contribute to substance abuse issues?

Also, mammasan has shared of his own personal issues publicly on the board, and does not feel that being hit has left residual trauma.

I find this to be interesting if not entirely surprising. We internalise what we are taught is normal, and it's entirely "rational" that we then ACT it out unconsciously--without awareness of it--such as with addictions and disorders that seem to "control" us. Such is the nature of unresolved unconscious contents. We can become conscious of such connections and take back conscious control.

angelica · January 2007

mammasan wrote:

I understand that but how much can a 2 or 3 year old understand especially after just being stung in the hind quarters. Again just my personaly opinion.

I'm with you on this.

Also, Dr. Phil says that when we hit, our kids feel that the score has been evened by the spanking or other physical discipline. Therefore they miss the learning message.

gue_barium · January 2007

angelica wrote:

I find it interesting that you don't seem to see a connection between being hit as a child with some of some of the personal issues you've publicly shared on this board. Do you feel certain that being hit by your caregivers as a defenseless child does not contribute to substance abuse issues?

Also, mammasan has shared of his own personal issues publicly on the board, and does not feel that being hit has left residual trauma.

I find this to be interesting if not entirely surprising. We internalise what we are taught is normal, and it's entirely "rational" that we then ACT it out unconsciously--without awareness of it--such as with addictions and disorders that seem to "control" us. Such is the nature of unresolved unconscious contents. We can become conscious of such connections and take back conscious control.

I think there's a difference between abuse and spanking as a punishment. Sounds to me like you're bringing trauma into this.

baraka · January 2007

One thing I will agree with is you can't reason with a toddler. Trust me, I've tried! However, I do not spank ( I was never spanked). I have found other methods that seemed to get the point across, such as losing privileges, etc. I always thought it was stupid, but 'time-outs' really work with my 2 year old. Also, losing 'toy' & TV privileges seem to get the point across. I personally don't feel that punishment through 'violence' is healthy in the long run. Just my opinion.

angelica · January 2007

gue_barium wrote:

I think there's a difference between abuse and spanking as a punishment. Sounds to me like you're bringing trauma into this.

What is your definition of abuse? To me if you hit me, you are abusing me. It doesn't make much sense to me to amend that idea to a lower standard for our children, of all people--to actually give them a lesser standard than we expect for ourselves, especially given their defenseless, dependent nature. We are their advocates, and I take that role very seriously. I don't see crossing the signals of love/abuse as a good practise, and I feel we see the fallout of doing so widely, all around us in each day.

Where do you think our disorders and dysfunctions spring from? They are not a fluke--they are effects stemming from causes.

Look at the world stage. Have we learned that violence is not the answer? Have we learned to solve our problems using our brains and not our brawn? Have we stopped justifying violence in thought, word and deed? And for the record, I spanked my kids. And when they started experiencing big fallout, I wanted to heal our cycles, and in order to do so, I had to make the tough connections. I had to accept full accountability for my destructive contributions in order to heal my poor patterns and to make amends to them, allowing them freedom from patterns I originally created. It's time to resolve problems and move beyond our band-aid solutions where we continue to perpetuate 2nd rate problem-solving, imo, on all levels.

gue_barium · January 2007

angelica wrote:

What is your definition of abuse? To me if you hit me, you are abusing me. It doesn't make much sense to me to amend that idea to a lower standard for our children, of all people--to actually give them a lesser standard than we expect for ourselves, especially given their defenseless, dependent nature. We are their advocates, and I take that role very seriously. I don't see crossing the signals of love/abuse as a good practise, and I feel we see the fallout of doing so widely, all around us in each day.

Where do you think our disorders and dysfunctions spring from? They are not a fluke--they are effects stemming from causes.

Look at the world stage. Have we learned that violence is not the answer? Have we learned to solve our problems using our brains and not our brawn? Have we stopped justifying violence in thought, word and deed? And for the record, I spanked my kids. And when they started experiencing big fallout, I wanted to heal our cycles, and in order to do so, I had to make the tough connections. I had to accept full accountability for my destructive contributions in order to heal my poor patterns and to make amends to them, allowing them freedom from patterns I originally created. It's time to resolve problems and move beyond our band-aid solutions where we continue to perpetuate 2nd rate problem-solving, imo, on all levels.

Physical abuse is traumatic. You know, in this example, a kid getting the shit kicked out of him/her by an angry out-of-control parent.
A spanking may be dramatic, but i don't believe it is traumatic.

soulsinging · January 2007

angelica wrote:

I find it interesting that you don't seem to see a connection between being hit as a child with some of some of the personal issues you've publicly shared on this board. Do you feel certain that being hit by your caregivers as a defenseless child does not contribute to substance abuse issues?

Also, mammasan has shared of his own personal issues publicly on the board, and does not feel that being hit has left residual trauma.

I find this to be interesting if not entirely surprising. We internalise what we are taught is normal, and it's entirely "rational" that we then ACT it out unconsciously--without awareness of it--such as with addictions and disorders that seem to "control" us. Such is the nature of unresolved unconscious contents. We can become conscious of such connections and take back conscious control.

no, i dont. i dont think there is any relation. nor do i think i want to kill my father and fuck my mother. nor do i think anything freud says makes any sense. if anything, it helped me own up to the consequences of substance abuse later in life.

jeffbr · January 2007

angelica wrote:

What is your definition of abuse? To me if you hit me, you are abusing me. It doesn't make much sense to me to amend that idea to a lower standard for our children, of all people--to actually give them a lesser standard than we expect for ourselves, especially given their defenseless, dependent nature. We are their advocates, and I take that role very seriously.

Brilliant. I love that. I always hear "I spank, but I don't hit or abuse, blah, blah". You make such a great point. If someone were to walk up and smack you across the mouth because they didn't like what you were saying to them, or you weren't listening to them, is that acceptable? Certainly not. If it isn't acceptable behavior, why would it be one of the early lessons we teach children?

soulsinging · January 2007

jeffbr wrote:

Brilliant. I love that. I always hear "I spank, but I don't hit or abuse, blah, blah". You make such a great point. If someone were to walk up and smack you across the mouth because they didn't like what you were saying to them, or you weren't listening to them, is that acceptable? Certainly not. If it isn't acceptable behavior, why would it be one of the early lessons we teach children?

cos nobody would smack a kid across the mouth. if my gf smacked me on the ass for saying something offensive, i dont think id be running to the police claiming abuse.

angelica · January 2007

soulsinging wrote:

no, i dont. i dont think there is any relation. nor do i think i want to kill my father and fuck my mother. nor do i think anything freud says makes any sense. if anything, it helped me own up to the consequences of substance abuse later in life.

I'm personally not a Freud fan, nor a proponent of his ideas.

I'm going by systems family theory, including co-dependency which underlies substance abuse and myriad other problems of numbing behaviours that help us avoid the paralysed traumas under the surface. And besides the theory, I have personally gone through my own addictions, and disorders one by one and in working to get to the root, have had to delve into the unconscious stuff to the point of resolution. That has included years of facing and FEELING my frozen emotions over those childhood abuses, so that I could release them. This is about practical application.

I fully accept if you make different connections and take your own route.

soulsinging · January 2007

angelica wrote:

I'm personally not a Freud fan, nor a proponent of his ideas.

I'm going by systems family theory, including co-dependency which underlies substance abuse and myriad other problems of numbing behaviours that help us avoid the paralysed traumas under the surface. And besides the theory, I have personally gone through my own addictions, and disorders one by one and in working to get to the root, have had to delve into the unconscious stuff to the point of resolution. That has included years of facing and FEELING my frozen emotions over those childhood abuses, so that I could release them. This is about practical application.

I fully accept if you make different connections and take your own route.

my feelings and emotions are not and never have been frozen. nor was i abused as a child. if i broke the rules, i was punished. it was not abuse, and it did not force me to freeze anything. ive also worked to get to the route of my substance abuse, and it had nothing to do with being spanked as a child and everything to do with me being a selfish little shit at times

angelica · January 2007

soulsinging wrote:

my feelings and emotions are not and never have been frozen. nor was i abused as a child. if i broke the rules, i was punished. it was not abuse, and it did not force me to freeze anything. ive also worked to get to the route of my substance abuse, and it had nothing to do with being abused and everything to do with me being a selfish little shit at times

Children are egocentric. It is normal that they see through "selfish" eyes. It is about the developmental stages they are in. It is not about shame/bad. When the masses become educated in this, then we will find mass AGE-APPROPRIATE ways to deal with our kids that respect where they are developmentally. And the result will be that our children will grow into respectful balanced adults.

MrBrian · January 2007

what about verbal abuse? I've seen many parents yelling things that I feel could/can/will damage a kid in some ways.

I mean, rather give a spanking than calling him/her stupid every day. Now that abuse will last a long time. a spanking is some quick pain then goes away.

angelica · January 2007

jeffbr wrote:

Brilliant. I love that. I always hear "I spank, but I don't hit or abuse, blah, blah". You make such a great point. If someone were to walk up and smack you across the mouth because they didn't like what you were saying to them, or you weren't listening to them, is that acceptable? Certainly not. If it isn't acceptable behavior, why would it be one of the early lessons we teach children?

I've known many, many, many spanking parents. And not a one were able to keep from crossing the line where their own indignance and anger that their child acted inappropriately did not clearly channel through their "discipline". It became an outlet for the parents frustrations and anger. So even if we can "rationalise" hitting in theory, the practise is much different. When we give ourselves permission to cross the hitting line, we justify where that takes us. I've seen it happen over, and over and over.....

crazy calif liberals won't let us beat our children

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