Obama not sure if he's CFR member...denies SPP/NAU, says it was cooked up by bloggers

unifiedscene · November 2008

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

You think elites don't live across the Atlantic and hold corporate interests over people?

ok...

Ever heard of the Rothchilds?

I don't doubt that they do. But that doesn't mean that every action taken by every government anywhere in the world is part of some secret plot of cloaked and hooded men bent on world domination.

The fact is that human society is, always has been, and always will be hierarchical. From tribes rules by leaders to feudal lords to kings and emperors to today, it is inevitable that people with money and power will always have more influence in the affairs of society. But you make it sound like there is some unified group of 10 people hell bent on screwing you no matter what the cost. What it really is is that there are hundreds of thousands of rich people out there and they're all hell bent on getting richer. They're as willing to crush each other as anyone else. And regardless of what "elites" got the EU going, the EU single-handedly turned Ireland from the poorest and most impoverished country in Europe into one of its most successful and greatly benefited its citizens. In every decision made, there will be winners and losers and something isn't automatically evil just because it's good for the wealthy. Trickle down economics may be bullshit, but you can't argue that the EU has been good for a lot of the poorer people in Europe.

unifiedscene · November 2008

angelica wrote:

Let me ask you this: If you watched the video in question...did you buy the part where Obama stammered over the ....'North American........uh......"

Do you think that he was being genuine and honest? and that he didn't know what it was? Granted, there may technically be no 'proof' of a NAU per se..as he said...but do you believe he was being genuine and that he genuinely stumbled over saying the words based on what you observed in this video? Do you think people like Roland and I and Lou Dobbs know about this .....uh.....North American...uh, Union, but that Obama does not, based on your gut sense, watching the video and based on what common sense tells you?

I didn't watch it. The condescending intro destroyed its credibility instantaneously. I don't pay attention to those trying to manipulate me, even if they want to pretend they're just being "provocative." I also ignore anyone who throws around generalizations like "anyone who supports Obama is a sheep." I don't debate with people like that, they're not worth 7 minutes and 23 seconds of my time.

RolandTD20Kdrummer · November 2008

unifiedscene wrote:

I don't doubt that they do. But that doesn't mean that every action taken by every government anywhere in the world is part of some secret plot of cloaked and hooded men bent on world domination.

The fact is that human society is, always has been, and always will be hierarchical. From tribes rules by leaders to feudal lords to kings and emperors to today, it is inevitable that people with money and power will always have more influence in the affairs of society. But you make it sound like there is some unified group of 10 people hell bent on screwing you no matter what the cost. What it really is is that there are hundreds of thousands of rich people out there and they're all hell bent on getting richer. They're as willing to crush each other as anyone else. And regardless of what "elites" got the EU going, the EU single-handedly turned Ireland from the poorest and most impoverished country in Europe into one of its most successful and greatly benefited its citizens. In every decision made, there will be winners and losers and something isn't automatically evil just because it's good for the wealthy. Trickle down economics may be bullshit, but you can't argue that the EU has been good for a lot of the poorer people in Europe.

In any event. The stated intentions are there for all to see. Do you honestly think it's going to be all out in the open and transparent, and you will get to vote on all of it?

Security (and Prosperity Partnership...SPP) let's think about the term security, and how "security" has been applied lately.

Who voted on the patriot acts? Did you?

unifiedscene · November 2008

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

In any event. The stated intentions are there for all to see. Do you honestly think it's going to be all out in the open and transparent, and you will get to vote on all of it?

Security (and Prosperity Partnership...SPP) let's think about the term security, and how "security" has been applied lately.

Who voted on the patriot acts? Did you?

Then we're back to my argument from earlier. How is the NAU worse than the USA? I don't vote for US policy either, I elect representatives to do so. I didn't vote for the Patriot Act. So what does it matter if I cede my "sovereignty" to the NAU instead of the USA? Either one is going to be composed of representatives making decisions for the whole rather than direct democracy.

angelica · November 2008

unifiedscene wrote:

I didn't watch it. The condescending intro destroyed its credibility instantaneously. I don't pay attention to those trying to manipulate me, even if they want to pretend they're just being "provocative." I also ignore anyone who throws around generalizations like "anyone who supports Obama is a sheep." I don't debate with people like that, they're not worth 7 minutes and 23 seconds of my time.

What about in terms of discussion with a person who is asking a well-intended question, such as right now?

RolandTD20Kdrummer · November 2008

unifiedscene wrote:

Then we're back to my argument from earlier. How is the NAU worse than the USA? I don't vote for US policy either, I elect representatives to do so. I didn't vote for the Patriot Act. So what does it matter if I cede my "sovereignty" to the NAU instead of the USA? Either one is going to be composed of representatives making decisions for the whole rather than direct democracy.

If you're in the US not much will change aside from using Mexicans for cheap labor everywhere. If you're living in Canada or Mexico....almost certainly much will change.

It's basically an attempt by the US to take over (eventually) these two countries and get better access to all their resources, and shape policies to better suit elite corporate interests with an agenda. The name itself is a total misnomer.

You have to look at where it's coming from, and when, and why...i.e. by whom. It's Neo-con wet dream program.

RolandTD20Kdrummer · November 2008

angelica wrote:

Let me ask you this: If you watched the video in question...did you buy the part where Obama stammered over the ....'North American........uh......"

Do you think that he was being genuine and honest? and that he didn't know what it was? Granted, there may technically be no 'proof' of a NAU per se..as he said...but do you believe he was being genuine and that he genuinely stumbled over saying the words based on what you observed in this video? Do you think people like Roland and I and Lou Dobbs know about this .....uh.....North American...uh, Union, but that Obama does not, based on your gut sense, watching the video and based on what common sense tells you?

Yes. Back to the original observation, and topic. If you want to see what Obama looks like when he is lying flat out....watch the vid.

unifiedscene · November 2008

angelica wrote:

What about in terms of discussion with a person who is asking a well-intended question, such as right now?

They can provide sources that are not so clearly propaganda or arguments that convince me it is worth my time. This hasn't happened yet. I still fail to see what I should be worried about... the argument seems to be that Obama denies being part of or aware of a group that so far has done nothing other than have a few small secret talks to explore the possibility of forming an NAU like the one that has transformed the European economy very successfully. I'm not losing sleep over this, nor does this convince me that Barack Obama is some sort of sleeper agent of evil not to be trusted. I've seen the man speak publicly for almost a year and he often stumbles and stammers and speaks very carefully and cautiously. That doesn't scare me and I'm not going to get myself into a tizzy about it. Let's be honest here, the OP would not have been happy with any response other than "I know the NAU and all the people involved in it are evil to the core and I will make it my first mission in office to round them all up and throw them in prison regardless of whether or not they have broken the law." The man's entire campaign was run on the idea that he is not omniscient and is willing to hear everyone out and choose the wisest course of action. So he didn't want to put his foot in his mouth by passing judgment on some group he's probably not hugely familiar with... what's the big deal?

unifiedscene · November 2008

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

If you're in the US not much will change aside from using Mexicans for cheap labor everywhere. If you're living in Canada or Mexico....almost certainly much will change.

It's basically an attempt by the US to take over (eventually) these two countries and get better access to all their resources, and shape policies to better suit elite corporate interests with an agenda.

What's the agenda?

RolandTD20Kdrummer · November 2008

unifiedscene wrote:

They can provide sources that are not so clearly propaganda or arguments that convince me it is worth my time. This hasn't happened yet. I still fail to see what I should be worried about... the argument seems to be that Obama denies being part of or aware of a group that so far has done nothing other than have a few small secret talks to explore the possibility of forming an NAU like the one that has transformed the European economy very successfully. I'm not losing sleep over this, nor does this convince me that Barack Obama is some sort of sleeper agent of evil not to be trusted. I've seen the man speak publicly for almost a year and he often stumbles and stammers and speaks very carefully and cautiously. That doesn't scare me.

He didn't even remember the name...he had to get the guy in the audience who asked the question help him complete the term itself.

He revealed himself completely by admitting knowing who exactly was talking about it in particular, and somehow he knows enough to say that it doesn't really exist.

So how exactly does Obama know all this if he can't even remember the term itself?

Can't remember the name, but knows a bunch of stuff about it enough to give a definitive answer. Right. The audience was oblivious.

Quite simply he's a liar, and he consciously lied to people at this town hall meeting.

angelica · November 2008

unifiedscene wrote:

They can provide sources that are not so clearly propaganda or arguments that convince me it is worth my time. This hasn't happened yet. I still fail to see what I should be worried about... the argument seems to be that Obama denies being part of or aware of a group that so far has done nothing other than have a few small secret talks to explore the possibility of forming an NAU like the one that has transformed the European economy very successfully. I'm not losing sleep over this, nor does this convince me that Barack Obama is some sort of sleeper agent of evil not to be trusted. I've seen the man speak publicly for almost a year and he often stumbles and stammers and speaks very carefully and cautiously. That doesn't scare me and I'm not going to get myself into a tizzy about it. Let's be honest here, the OP would not have been happy with any response other than "I know the NAU and all the people involved in it are evil to the core and I will make it my first mission in office to round them all up and throw them in prison regardless of whether or not they have broken the law." The man's entire campaign was run on the idea that he is not omniscient and is willing to hear everyone out and choose the wisest course of action. So he didn't want to put his foot in his mouth by passing judgment on some group he's probably not hugely familiar with... what's the big deal?

Interesting. Are you willing to fast-forward into the video to just witness Obama for yourself? and stop, and then respond to me about what your gut instinct tells you? The clip of Obama is factual evidence that exists independent of how it's dressed up with slant and bias.

Is it possible to look at something for what it is, and then assess it? Beyond the bias? I say yes. I do it all the time and call it discerning information. For me it's about not throwing out the baby with the bathwater. It's about being realistic in each situation, in each moment in the present, beyond what one would see as my view/ideology or Roland's, or whomever.

unifiedscene · November 2008

angelica wrote:

Interesting. Are you willing to fast-forward into the video to just witness Obama for yourself? and stop, and then respond to me about what your gut instinct tells you? The clip of Obama is factual evidence that exists independent of how it's dressed up with slant and bias.

Is it possible to look at something for what it is, and then assess it? Beyond the bias? I say yes. I do it all the time and call is discerning information. For me it's about not throwing out the baby with the bathwater. It's about being realistic in each situation, in each moment in the present, beyond what one would see has my view/ideology or Roland's, or whomever.

Not at the moment, but perhaps later just to shut you all up.

Right now, I've wasted enough time as it is and I've got work that needs to be done.

angelica · November 2008

unifiedscene wrote:

Not at the moment, but perhaps later just to shut you all up. Right now, I've wasted enough time as it is and I've got work that needs to be done.

Cool. I'm looking for your honest impression given the variables of the clip, at that time period, and in the context of Obama as an American politician given what you think he'd be likely to know/not know... You seem as though you are a reasonbly savvy individual.

RolandTD20Kdrummer · November 2008

As per Wikipedia:

"The belief that a North American Union is currently being planned and implemented in secret has become widespread, so much so that the NAU has become a topic of debate during the 2008 American presidential campaigns and the subject of various U.S. Congressional resolutions[10][11] designed to thwart its implementation.

i.e.
http://thomas.loc.gov/home/gpoxmlc110/hc40_ih.xml
http://thomas.loc.gov/home/gpoxmlc109/hc487_ih.xml

jimed14 · November 2008

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

He didn't even remember the name...he had to get the guy in the audience who asked the question help him complete the term itself.

He revealed himself completely by admitting knowing who exactly was talking about it in particular, and somehow he knows enough to say that it doesn't really exist.

So how exactly does Obama know all this if he can't even remember the term itself?

Can't remember the name, but knows a bunch of stuff about it enough to give a definitive answer. Right. The audience was oblivious.

Quite simply he's a liar, and he consciously lied to people at this town hall meeting.

If you want a breakdown of it ...

The guy's question was pretty long, several questions actually ... and he talked about a few things, including the NAU, the Amero, etc ... so, Obama needed a little help with what the last word after "North America" would be ... jeez, the guy is on the campaign trail forever, he pauses once and you want to scream "conspiracy!!!"?

He didn't lie ... he admitted to knowing about the idea of the NAU.

Indeed, he knew what the guy was talking about ... but, he said it's not happening ... which, I still see no proof of it happening to the extent you think it's happening.

I still think you're REALLY reaching here.

RolandTD20Kdrummer · November 2008

jimed14 wrote:

If you want a breakdown of it ...

The guy's question was pretty long, several questions actually ... and he talked about a few things, including the NAU, the Amero, etc ... so, Obama needed a little help with what the last word after "North America" would be ... jeez, the guy is on the campaign trail forever, he pauses once and you want to scream "conspiracy!!!"?

He didn't lie ... he admitted to knowing about the idea of the NAU.

Indeed, he knew what the guy was talking about ... but, he said it's not happening ... which, I still see no proof of it happening to the extent you think it's happening.

I still think you're REALLY reaching here.

How can you not know the actual name of something and then turn around and pretend to give a qualified answer? Isn't that a bit of an impossibility?

He would have been better off saying he has no clue at all...

jimed14 · November 2008

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

How can you not know the actual name of something and then turn around and pretend to give a qualified answer? Isn't that a bit of an impossibility?

He would have been better off saying he has no clue at all...

Again, he tripped up on the word after "North America" ... perhaps he thought the guy was talking about the Amero, not necessarily Union (as he also mentioned in his question) ... he didn't dodge the question, he answered it. He tripped up on ONE WORD ... that doens't mean there's some secret printing locaiton minting Ameros as we speak.

This is like watching a personal foul in football in slow motion ...

Of course, after 100 viewings of the specific incident over and over, it looks real bad ... but, taken in context of the entire "play" (so to speak) ... it's not as bad as you make it out to be.

again, you're reaching.

RolandTD20Kdrummer · November 2008

jimed14 wrote:

Again, he tripped up on the word after "North America" ... perhaps he thought the guy was talking about the Amero, not necessarily Union (as he also mentioned in his question) ... he didn't dodge the question, he answered it. He tripped up on ONE WORD ... that doens't mean there's some secret printing locaiton minting Ameros as we speak.

This is like watching a personal foul in football in slow motion ...

Of course, after 100 viewings of the specific incident over and over, it looks real bad ... but, taken in context of the entire "play" (so to speak) ... it's not as bad as you make it out to be.

again, you're reaching.

Next excuse will be he didn't sleep at a holiday Inn the night before.

In reality it's not something that was "ginned up by bloggers".

So he either really does not know anything about it, and is just pretending to, or he is lying.

Actually that's lying either way.

Drowned Out · November 2008

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

Their website used to include a huge picture of the proposed highway proudly displayed...not any more.

All in secrecy this whole thing was hatched and planned. Zero public involvement.

thinking of this one? :
http://www.transportation.alberta.ca/2760.htm
(Alberta Ministry of Transportation's website).
I think I've seen a more elaborate map before, but don't remember the source

Yet again, people in this thread are arguing with you just to defend Obama. I don’t get the ‘give him a chance’ stance… seems a lot of people think their personal political responsibility ends at the voting booth. It floors me....you would think that people would at least take a slight interest, based on the fact that their president elect 'could' be lying about something very important...but no, let's give him the benefit of the doubt...enough rope...If anyone doubts the SPP, and believes that plans for further continental integration aren't a serious concern, they need to ask themselves why there have been mass protests every time they've admitted to meeting about it....then ask why they have no clue what is being protested.

obviously, a LOT of people think it's important enough to protest...
all discussions on the subject have been conducted with no oversight, neither publicly nor via our representatives....
Obama may be lying about his knowledge/involvement in it's planning/implementation...

nope, not intrigued....I'll wait and see.

This encompasses EVERYTHING. The economy, healthcare/social programs, immigration, rights and freedoms, the works! And it's no big deal that they're discussing it without oversight?

RolandTD20Kdrummer · November 2008

Drowned Out wrote:

thinking of this one? :
http://www.transportation.alberta.ca/2760.htm
(Alberta Ministry of Transportation's website).
I think I've seen a more elaborate map before, but don't remember the source

Yet again, people in this thread are arguing with you just to defend Obama. I don’t get the ‘give him a chance’ stance… seems a lot of people think their personal political responsibility ends at the voting booth. It floors me....you would think that people would at least take a slight interest, based on the fact that their president elect 'could' be lying about something very important...but no, let's give him the benefit of the doubt...enough rope...If anyone doubts the SPP, and believes that plans for further continental integration aren't a serious concern, they need to ask themselves why there have been mass protests every time they've admitted to meeting about it....then ask why they have no clue what is being protested.

obviously, a LOT of people think it's important enough to protest...
all discussions on the subject have been conducted with no oversight, neither publicly nor via our representatives....
Obama may be lying about his knowledge/involvement in it's planning/implementation...

nope, not intrigued....I'll wait and see.

This encompasses EVERYTHING. The economy, healthcare/social programs, immigration, rights and freedoms, the works! And it's no big deal that they're discussing it without oversight?

Yes it was extremely similar to that map, actually (figured I'd Google it) It was this one:

http://www.eagleforum.org/topics/NAU/gif/Nafta-Map-Big.jpg

used to be loud and proud on their page, NASCO.... it's all coming back now.

I don't get people....don't knock the messiah.... People gave Bush a free pass, look what happened....he destroyed the country in under 8 years.

Hey! Let's do that all over again....wheeee!!

Oversight is for crazy, suspicious, paranoid, conspiracy people. Life's existence as we know it from A - Z could be going under the knife for open heart surgery to suit greedy corporate interests??? Bah...who cares...let em talk....it's perfectly harmless.

....kinda blows my mind really.

Obama not sure if he's CFR member...denies SPP/NAU, says it was cooked up by bloggers

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