Israel, US, and Abbas want peace...Hamas doesn't

SundaySilence · October 2007

jlew24asu wrote:

even you would agree that violence is not the anwser. byzine's famous armed resistence movement does nothing to solve the situation. blowing up civilians in a suicide attack is only going to make things worse for Palestinians, not better. sure they can dance with joy that some Israelis are dead but its not going to get their land back.

and yes I would like to see Israel stop occupying some of the land its been taking in recent times. build a wall and be done with it.

Violence may not be the answer, but it is a predictable reaction to apartheid.

Different than other resistence movements though is the more radical attempt by the Palistinian terror groups not only to reform Israel, but to destroy it.

Israel has had a major role in empowering Hamas by imcompetent overreaction to provacation. Collective punishment goes a long way in radicalizing the moderates.

Thecure · October 2007

SundaySilence wrote:

Violence may not be the answer, but it is a predictable reaction to apartheid.

Different than other resistence movements though is the more radical attempt by the Palistinian terror groups not only to reform Israel, but to destroy it.

Israel has had a major role in empowering Hamas by imcompetent overreaction to provacation. Collective punishment goes a long way in radicalizing the moderates.

at the same time no reaction does not do anything else. the governemtn still has to protect their people. it is their job. i believe that to find a solutaion we may need future generation to rise up and use their voice. of course, by the time that the youth do rise up it might be too late.

to be truthfull, i doubt that any talks will do anything. even if both government make a pact both sides will think that they gave in. i fthat happens we may have a war that is worse than now.

jlew24asu · October 2007

callen wrote:

do you know the history of Isreal...and its foundation? Not being sarcastic mind you.
Pretty much land was taken away and givin to the jews....going to take more than a couple of generations for the losers of that land to get over it....if you were a palastinian or muslim...you'd feel the same way.

I'm not asking anyone to get over it. but there needs to be a level of acceptance and then compromise. I'm not saying Israel is without fault by any means.

SundaySilence · October 2007

Thecure wrote:

at the same time no reaction does not do anything else. the governemtn still has to protect their people. it is their job.

There is much room between no reaction and the Israeli approach to the west bank.

SundaySilence · October 2007

jlew24asu wrote:

I'm not asking anyone to get over it. but there needs to be a level of acceptance and then compromise. I'm not saying Israel is without fault by any means.

If your main strategic objective is to trade for peace and security you must preserve enough to make a bargin. For the last forty years Israel has been doing the opposite. Settlements in the west bank grow today. Palistinian moderates cannot believe Israel is serious about a deal.

jlew24asu · October 2007

SundaySilence wrote:

If your main strategic objective is to trade for peace and security you must preserve enough to make a bargin. For the last forty years Israel has been doing the opposite. Settlements in the west bank grow today. Palistinian moderates cannot believe Israel is serious about a deal.

yes, I agree. there are many illegal settlements that need to be given back. but going to the 1967 borders isn't going to happen. both sides need to meet in the middle. somehow, someway.

progress was made in 1993 in Oslo maybe it can happen again. but again, hamas wont recognize Israel or renounce violence. fatah does, now if we can only get hamas on board progress can be made.

SundaySilence · October 2007

jlew24asu wrote:

yes, I agree. there are many illegal settlements that need to be given back. but going to the 1967 borders isn't going to happen. both sides need to meet in the middle. somehow, someway.

progress was made in 1993 in Oslo maybe it can happen again. but again, hamas wont recognize Israel or renounce violence. fatah does, now if we can only get hamas on board progress can be made.

I doubt you're involved in the negotions but declaring off the table what the international community recognizes as acceptable is no way to invite discussion.

The six day war was a defensive war and Isreal was justified in its preemptive strikes. (by no means is it comparable to unjustifiable bush preemptive war btw) Expansion of Israel's borders is offensive and it continues at this moment. No other country or international body besides Israel recognizes this expansion as legitimate. One must be from the United States not to recognize the pariah status of a settler state.

The starting point for any negotiations has been Palestinian peace in exchange for a real state with close to 1967 borders -certainly adjustments are part of the discussion. That was the case with the Geneva accords and seemingly in Oslo, though the details are disputed and by many accounts may have been worse or even designed to be unacceptable.

The towering fact of growing settlements leaves concern as to whether Israel's real objective is more land, or peace.

Thecure · October 2007

SundaySilence wrote:

There is much room between no reaction and the Israeli approach to the west bank.

i agree but like i said before. both sides have to go over board or they will seem to be weak.

i don't agree but that is what i see.

LikeAnOpeningBandForTheSun · October 2007

callen wrote:

so if you can take someones land...and hold it for 2 generations...that's it..its yours...woo hoo.

Is 3 generations better? how about 4? I don't know the answer but you have to put a number on it. if you go back far enough in history every nation on earth had someone else living there at one time who was forced out or destroyed. Sucks but thats the way it is. Dwell on the present and the future, not the (increasingly distant) past.

SundaySilence · October 2007

MrSmith wrote:

Is 3 generations better? how about 4? I don't know the answer but you have to put a number on it. if you go back far enough in history every nation on earth had someone else living there at one time who was forced out or destroyed. Sucks but thats the way it is. Dwell on the present and the future, not the (increasingly distant) past.

The very people that were forced out are here.

fuck · October 2007

SundaySilence wrote:

There's a difference when the very people that were forced out are still alive.

and under a brutal occupation.

it's not comparable to the native americans and europeans.

RolandTD20Kdrummer · October 2007

SundaySilence wrote:

There's a difference when the very people that were forced out are still alive.

Or worse. Some of their family members got smoked by the occupation, on top of that they're still situated a stones throw of their old home. Some homes and land being previously held in the family over several generations.

I can't ever imagine why they would be upset (sarcasm).

Byrnzie · October 2007

mammasan wrote:

Hamas was invited to the talks but it's leadership, not the elected officials mind you, where the one's that stated that no representative from Hamas would attend. The elected officials who govern over the Gaza Strip want to negotiate. They realize that diplomacy not violence is the only path that will produce results. It's is the fanatics that run the organization who have no interest in peace but in killing as many Israelis as possible. If the political wing of Hamas ever wants to be taken seriously it needs to seperate itself from the militant wing.

Everything you've said in this post is complete bullshit. Hamas weren't invited to the talks. Israel and the U.S refuse to negotiate with them.
If you have evidence to the contrary, then present it.

Byrnzie · October 2007

jlew24asu wrote:

I'm talking about conservative Islam that hamas lives by. from birth they teach to kill yourself in the name of allah.

And Zionists aren't fanatical or dangerous?

Byrnzie · October 2007

mammasan wrote:

Israel in recent years has made attempts to live peacefully with it's Palestinian neighbors. They could do more but they have at least tried.

Please provide some, or even one, example.

mammasan wrote:

Also while Israel's occupation of Palestinian land is unacceptable setting off a bomb on a crowded bus is never an acceptable method to dealing with it.

Neither is it acceptable to fire missiles into crowded residential streets, or to bulldoze someones home, or to shoot a six year old in the head for throwing stones at an armoured vehicle, e.t.c. But, hey! That's all just self-defence, right?

Byrnzie · October 2007

mammasan wrote:

Both parties are equally responsible for the blood shed in that region.

This is where you are wrong. One party is living in dire poverty and can hardly feed itself, let alone defend itself. While the other party is propped up by the worlds only superpower, and is currently in breach of over 60 U.N resolutions, including that calling the occupation of Palestine a war crime.
There is no level playing field there at all.

Byrnzie · October 2007

VedJam wrote:

i don't think bad of them.. i just try to keep my life a usual..
i participated in some volunteering organizations and had some joint activities with Arabs and they have the same interests as ours..

in a country that its the law to go to the army and almost every day soldiers are getting killed it hits close to home, so i can't help to hope that in two years it won't be my friends and me [if i choose to be in combat or not..].

But your soldiers aren't being killed every day.
And I was asking you what you thought of the Palestinians. You say you don't think bad of them? What are your thoughts on the occupation?

Byrnzie · October 2007

mammasan wrote:

Let me elaborate. Again please correct me if I'm wrong, but I always here how Israel will not sit down for talks as long as there are attacks against the country from Palestinian radicals and how they want fatah to do something about them. It is pretty obvious to me that fatah does not have the resources to defeat these radicals especially Hamas who is backed by Syria and Iran. Is there a way that Israel can offer support to Fatah to help them supress the terrorist element within their borders and/or maybe looses the leash a little in order for Fatah to gain more support from the average Palestinian citizen.

Fatah is a puppet government with as much validity to run Palestine as me.
They were put in place by Israel and the U.S who simply want to consolidate the stolen territories by paying off these corrupt, unelected officials.
You talk of 'terrorist elemnts? Israel is carrying out acts of terrorism on a daily basis. The occupation itself is an act of terrorism.
Hamas is a legitimate resistance movement.
I bet if we were talking about 1980's South Africa here, you'd be cheering on the Apartheid regime, and saying that Nelson Mandela and the ANC are preventing peace, and represent a radical element.
Fatah will never be supported by the average Palestinian citizen because, for one thing, the average Palestinian citizen isn't as brainwashed and deluded about the situation over there as you. They see it for what it is. The only party willing to stand up for the rights of the average citizen, and to not bow down to the U.S and Israels greed, and corruption, is Hamas. Fatah, and Abbas are a joke. But you can bet they're being well looked after. The U.S has just given them $45 million for starters. A nice little backhander, ay? Unfortunately, whatever Abbas and his crowd agree to give away to Israel and the U.S, it won't achieve anything but more bloodshed in the long term. Fatah, therefore, is the problem here, not Hamas.

Byrnzie · October 2007

VedJam wrote:

in what way that has not been tried yet do you think Israel can show hamas that diplomacy can work?

They can begin by offering to negotiate with them for a start. Secondly, I'd recommend that Israel offer to talk with Hamas in the absence of the U.S. It's the U.S government afterall that has blocked any chance of a peace settlement over the past 36 years. I think Israel would be better off doing what is best for it's own people and cease allowing itself to be used as nothing but a corrupt military outpost for U.S imperial interests.

Byrnzie · October 2007

jlew24asu wrote:

progress was made in 1993 in Oslo maybe it can happen again. but again, hamas wont recognize Israel or renounce violence. fatah does, now if we can only get hamas on board progress can be made.

Progress was made in 1993 in Oslo? Please elaborate.

And I'll repeat again, for the 100th time. Hamas has every right to refuse to recognise Israel. Israel in it's current incarnation is engaged in an illegal occupation of Palestinian land. Now proceed to ignore my comment and forget I ever said it. I'll repeat it again the next time you rehash your horseshit statement about Hamas needing to recognise Israel.
As for your other point about Hamas having to 'renounce violence', that is just too pathetic to be worthy of comment.

Israel, US, and Abbas want peace...Hamas doesn't

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