How is abortion morally ethical.....

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  • Posts: 3,326
    DOSW wrote:
    First of all, I usually put 'pro-life' in quotation marks for a reason. I really hate that label, because it tends to make people think things about me that aren't true- things like me being a sexist. "If you are truly pro-life..." Give me a fucking break. I don't base my opinions on a stupid label. I go by what I think is right.

    And second, your second paragraph there doesn't make any practical sense. It looks great on paper, but think about it. The woman is the one with the baby, right? So, if she gets pregnant because of her own choice to have sex, then she (and the father, for that matter) should be held responsible for that baby. But if she gets pregnant because of rape, then she isn't responsible because it's not her fault. It's not hard to follow.

    Raping someone is a lot different from choosing to have sex. Putting them on the same level by calling them both "mistakes" is idiotic.
    So your quasi-pro-life stance actually has nothing to do with your belief about when life begins? You are against abortion only because you'd like to see women punished for what you see as their bad bahavior, and you think a baby is a fitting punishment?
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • Posts: 2,014
    And here's a question for people on the other side.

    Do you believe a winning jackpot lottery ticket is worthless because it hasn't been cashed in yet?
    It's a town full of losers and I'm pulling out of here to win
  • Posts: 3,326
    DOSW wrote:
    And here's a question for people on the other side.

    Do you believe a winning jackpot lottery ticket is worthless because it hasn't been cashed in yet?
    Of course not. A winning lottery ticket is legal tender. It's a credit note from the lottery commission, the same as a dollar bill is a note from the U.S. treasury.
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • Posts: 2,014
    hippiemom wrote:
    So your quasi-pro-life stance actually has nothing to do with your belief about when life begins? You are against abortion only because you'd like to see women punished for what you see as their bad bahavior, and you think a baby is a fitting punishment?

    Hold up. I think that both the woman AND the man should be held responsible for their actions. Having sex isn't a bad behavior, not at all... but you have to be responsible for anything that can go wrong if you both choose to engage in it.

    It's not as much a punishment as it is lying in the bed you made for yourself.
    It's a town full of losers and I'm pulling out of here to win
  • Posts: 3,326
    DOSW wrote:
    Hold up. I think that both the woman AND the man should be held responsible for their actions. Having sex isn't a bad behavior, not at all... but you have to be responsible for anything that can go wrong if you both choose to engage in it.

    It's not as much a punishment as it is lying in the bed you made for yourself.
    Paying for and undergoing an abortion can also be seen as lying in the bed you made for yourself, without creating another person and forcing them to lie in it with you.
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • Posts: 2,014
    hippiemom wrote:
    Of course not. A winning lottery ticket is legal tender. It's a credit note from the lottery commission, the same as a dollar bill is a note from the U.S. treasury.

    I'll assume you understood my metaphor but decided not to play along. ;)
    It's a town full of losers and I'm pulling out of here to win
  • Posts: 2,014
    hippiemom wrote:
    Paying for and undergoing an abortion can also be seen as lying in the bed you made for yourself, without creating another person and forcing them to lie in it with you.

    I see your point. But it's pretty much taking the easy way out. I don't think that is taking responsibility... it's more like just getting rid of it.

    And just because a child isn't aborted doesn't mean that he'll have a bad life. You have to give the kid a chance. And if you ask me, having ANY life is better than no life at all... but that's probably another area where we'll disagree.
    It's a town full of losers and I'm pulling out of here to win
  • Posts: 29,003
    DOSW wrote:
    Hold up. I think that both the woman AND the man should be held responsible for their actions. Having sex isn't a bad behavior, not at all... but you have to be responsible for anything that can go wrong if you both choose to engage in it.

    It's not as much a punishment as it is lying in the bed you made for yourself.

    you know sometimes despite taking the birth control precautions recommended one does end up pregnant. one has been responsible for their behaviour and yet still finds herself in this predicament.
    besides you know females don't make these babies on their own and yet oftentimes she is left to deal with the consequences on her own. at that point, any decision concerning my future and that of my unborn embryo/foetus/child is mine to make alone.
    just as life begins at conception, another life can end.
    and yes even though i am pro choice i believe that life does begin at conception. and i'm sure i'm not the only one.
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  • Posts: 29,003
    DOSW wrote:
    I see your point. But it's pretty much taking the easy way out. I don't think that is taking responsibility... it's more like just getting rid of it.

    And just because a child isn't aborted doesn't mean that he'll have a bad life. You have to give the kid a chance. And if you ask me, having ANY life is better than no life at all... but that's probably another area where we'll disagree.
    are you kidding me?
    how is making the hardest decision of your life taking the easy way out?
    deciding whether or not to continue with a pregnancy is the most soul searching decision a woman can make. it is not an easy thing by any stretch of the imagination. and i take offense at your trivialising of the matter. you make it sound as if deciding to terminate a pregnancy is as flippant a decision as what flavour ice cream to buy. it is not.
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • Posts: 13,202
    DOSW wrote:
    First of all, I usually put 'pro-life' in quotation marks for a reason. I really hate that label, because it tends to make people think things about me that aren't true- things like me being a sexist. "If you are truly pro-life..." Give me a fucking break. I don't base my opinions on a stupid label. I go by what I think is right.

    And second, your second paragraph there doesn't make any practical sense. It looks great on paper, but think about it. The woman is the one with the baby, right? So, if she gets pregnant because of her own choice to have sex, then she (and the father, for that matter) should be held responsible for that baby. But if she gets pregnant because of rape, then she isn't responsible because it's not her fault. It's not hard to follow.

    Raping someone is a lot different from choosing to have sex. Putting them on the same level by calling them both "mistakes" is idiotic.

    ah, but see... this debate for you has nothing to do with valuing the life of a baby. it's about making sure those women "take responsibility" (basically, bear the punishment) of having sex. becos, YOUR argument has no response to the fact that the baby conceived by rape is still a baby, still a viable, innocent human being. so why should it be punished becos of its father's actions? just becos it's father was a criminal who committed a horrific act does not mean that baby should bear the consquences of that. you're still killing an innocent child, based on the sins of its father. if this is truly about protecting innocent human life, there is no way that is justifiable.
  • Posts: 13,202
    DOSW wrote:
    And here's a question for people on the other side.

    Do you believe a winning jackpot lottery ticket is worthless because it hasn't been cashed in yet?

    if you have no intention of cashing it in, didnt want to buy the ticket, and are opposed to the lottery, you should be entitled to throw it away. becos yes, it only has worth IF it is cashed in. otherwise, it's just a piece of paper.
  • Posts: 13,202
    catefrances wrote:
    are you kidding me?
    how is making the hardest decision of your life taking the easy way out?
    deciding whether or not to continue with a pregnancy is the most soul searching decision a woman can make. it is not an easy thing by any stretch of the imagination. and i take offense at your trivialising of the matter. you make it sound as if deciding to terminate a pregnancy is as flippant a decision as what flavour ice cream to buy. it is not.

    it is to a guy who will never have to be pregnant... they assume it is as easy a chioce for her to make as it is for him to pressure her into having sex without a condom.
  • Posts: 3,326
    DOSW wrote:
    I see your point. But it's pretty much taking the easy way out. I don't think that is taking responsibility... it's more like just getting rid of it.

    And just because a child isn't aborted doesn't mean that he'll have a bad life. You have to give the kid a chance. And if you ask me, having ANY life is better than no life at all... but that's probably another area where we'll disagree.
    What on earth is wrong with not having a child that you don't want? If this is not about when life begins, what is wrong with just getting rid of it?

    Everything we do has consequences, that's inescapable. Usually there is a range of options available to us, and the ultimate outcome is determined by each of our choices along the way. A particular action doesn't lead to a particular consequence, but to another set of options that will possibly determine some sort of ultimate consequence. Sometimes society steps in and imposes an ultimate consequence as punishment for what we all agree is bad behavior. Usually that punishment takes the form of fines and/or jail time.

    I don't see sex, even unprotected sex, as the sort of behavior that society has any business penalizing. I don't think that having a child you don't want and don't have the means to care for can in any way be called "responsible."
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • Posts: 1,450
    hippiemom wrote:

    I don't see sex, even unprotected sex, as the sort of behavior that society has any business penalizing. I don't think that having a child you don't want and don't have the means to care for can in any way be called "responsible."

    People have to deal with consequences for their actions..and they dont because people like you in society justify their failure.

    If you have unprotected sex YOU HAVE TO DEAL WITH THE CONSEQUENCES. The fact that you have an abortion shows how irresponsible of a person you actually are.
    America...the greatest Country in the world.
  • Posts: 3,326
    miller8966 wrote:
    People have to deal with consequences for their actions..and they dont because people like you in society justify their failure.

    If you have unprotected sex YOU HAVE TO DEAL WITH THE CONSEQUENCES. The fact that you have an abortion shows how irresponsible of a person you actually are.
    Abortion is a consequence.
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • Posts: 2,014
    soulsinging wrote:
    ah, but see... this debate for you has nothing to do with valuing the life of a baby. it's about making sure those women "take responsibility" (basically, bear the punishment) of having sex. becos, YOUR argument has no response to the fact that the baby conceived by rape is still a baby, still a viable, innocent human being. so why should it be punished becos of its father's actions? just becos it's father was a criminal who committed a horrific act does not mean that baby should bear the consquences of that. you're still killing an innocent child, based on the sins of its father. if this is truly about protecting innocent human life, there is no way that is justifiable.

    There are many factors going in to why I am against abortion. Responsibility is a big part of it, yeah. But saving a human life has a lot to do with it as well.

    In that post, I was defending the responsibility aspect of my opinion. It doesn't mean there aren't other reasons why I am against abortion.
    It's a town full of losers and I'm pulling out of here to win
  • Posts: 2,014
    catefrances wrote:
    you make it sound as if deciding to terminate a pregnancy is as flippant a decision as what flavour ice cream to buy. it is not.

    I mistake that I admit I made.

    But the decision is easier for some than it is for others.
    It's a town full of losers and I'm pulling out of here to win
  • Posts: 2,014
    catefrances wrote:
    you know sometimes despite taking the birth control precautions recommended one does end up pregnant. one has been responsible for their behaviour and yet still finds herself in this predicament.

    I've said this before, and I'll say it again. Anytime you have sex, protected or unprotected, you are undergoing a risk that you should be prepared to deal with if things don't turn out like you hope.

    Can't say I blame you for not reading every page of this thread, though. :)
    It's a town full of losers and I'm pulling out of here to win
  • Posts: 3,326
    DOSW wrote:
    I've said this before, and I'll say it again. Anytime you have sex, protected or unprotected, you are undergoing a risk that you should be prepared to deal with if things don't turn out like you hope.

    Can't say I blame you for not reading every page of this thread, though. :)
    Of course you have to be prepared to deal with it. Abortion is one way of dealing with it.
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • Posts: 2,014
    hippiemom wrote:
    Of course you have to be prepared to deal with it. Abortion is one way of dealing with it.

    That's an interesting case you make. But I don't feel that abortion is the right way to deal with it...

    ...which takes us back to the moral aspect of the debate. This argument has finally reached that point for me where arguing just feels pointless. So now I'm going to resist the urge to respond and just let it go. It's been an interesting debate though, so thanks everyone.
    It's a town full of losers and I'm pulling out of here to win

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