Israel, US, and Abbas want peace...Hamas doesn't

fuck · October 2007

VedJam wrote:

second, the real problem here is that you can't change historey- many ppl were rised and educated to just hate each other.. the Jihad and many parents who have been rised the same have made every Palastinien hate the existence of jews in Israel.. and most of the kids hear about the wares and can't help but to ask why should we not hate them? [or something like that..]

First of all, your use of 'every palestinian' is already a fallacy in your argument. Also, I don't think palestinians really hate the existence of jews in israel, but the occupation it has been putting upon them. Remember, during WWII many Jews were coming into Palestine so that they can be safe from Nazis. It was after WWII when Israel claimed independence and began an occupation that really pissed em off. also, the fact that you think palestinians are influenced as they get older, but not israelis seems like you have a really shifted view of things that is clearly not logical.

but i really think Israel is influenced from the US and europe [in a good way]

Thanks. that was a good laugh.

and see what other choices they have, but hate.. there are many programs that their goal is to connect kids from bothe sides..
and im not saying that Palestinians are not good ppl, they are just like enybody who has been hurt and rised to demand their own [in a way that i think is more violent than it should be]..

So, to paraphrase what you said... "I'm not saying Palestinians aren't good people... they're just raised with a very wrong perspective on things and are violent.."

It's like reading a fox news article.

-and again, very sorry for the grammer too..

no worries.

VedJam wrote:

can you plz remind me where and when "They were able to take thousands of Palestinians out of their homes WITHOUT A REASON.."

Byrnzie got it right. I wrote that as I was very tired but I meant drive especially as they bulldozed people's houses and land. This is a very clear fact and it's available anywhere online. Haven't you ever heard of Rachel Corrie? Or has the israeli media been able to keep that out of the news?

and may i remind you all that Israel risked civil war when it decided to evacuate Gaza?

and may i remind you that since then they have gone to war with gaza several times, killed many of its people, bulldozed its houses, and... should i go on?

jlew24asu · October 2007

_FiveAgainstOne_ wrote:

So, to paraphrase what you said... "I'm not saying Palestinians aren't good people... they're just raised with a very wrong perspective on things and are violent.."

It's like reading a fox news article.

its great to see a 17 year old girl is more mature then you. yet another fox news rip. is fox news anymore propaganda the noam chomesy or alex jones? give it a rest already. this person is giving you her opinion and bases that opinion on first hand personal experience.

you have never been to Israel or the Palestinian territories.

and lets see here......there are many, in hamas in particular, you raise their kids to hate Israel and become martyrs for God. so what she she is dead on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4VHTyWwNf8

spiral out · October 2007

jlew24asu wrote:

its great to see a 17 year old girl is more mature then you. yet another fox news rip. is fox news anymore propaganda the noam chomesy or alex jones? give it a rest already. this person is giving you her opinion and bases that opinion on first hand personal experience.

you have never been to Israel or the Palestinian territories.

and lets see here......there are many, in hamas in particular, you raise their kids to hate Israel and become martyrs for God. so what she she is dead on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4VHTyWwNf8

The opinion is based on growing up on one side of the fence so it also going to be biased.

fuck · October 2007

jlew24asu wrote:

its great to see a 17 year old girl is more mature then you.

Yes, I'm sure you know so much about maturity seeing as how your arguments contain so many red herrings and insults.

you have never been to Israel or the Palestinian territories.

Uh, actually, I have been. Several times. Assumptions only make your arguments weaker. I have been to the occupied territories as well, something I doubt your friend has done.

and lets see here......there are many, in hamas in particular, you raise their kids to hate Israel and become martyrs for God. so what she she is dead on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4VHTyWwNf8

Of course there are some like that. But what she said is not dead on as well. If you read what I said closely rather than looking for anything to trash, you'd see I pointed out that she said 'every palestinian' which is clearly wrong. In EVERY society you will see some kids growing up in a different way, some in a more 'wrong' way that you may disagree with. doesn't mean anything if lots of these kids grow up to hate israel. Also, she said they grow up to hate the jews in israel, which is different than israel itself.

growing up to hate israel, is hating the occupation, and the government. hating the jews in israel is just plain wrong and a ridiculous assumption fueled by nothing but propaganda.

jlew24asu · October 2007

spiral out wrote:

The opinion is based on growing up on one side of the fence so it also going to be biased.

of course it is. but if you look at hamas vs. Israel on ideology alone its clear to see who is more violent.

find me one Israeli kindergarden that marches the kids around with toy machine guns and brainwash them into taking their own lives in the name of god when they get older. its sad.

even you would agree that violence is not the anwser. byzine's famous armed resistence movement does nothing to solve the situation. blowing up civilians in a suicide attack is only going to make things worse for Palestinians, not better. sure they can dance with joy that some Israelis are dead but its not going to get their land back.

and yes I would like to see Israel stop occupying some of the land its been taking in recent times. build a wall and be done with it.

fuck · October 2007

jlew24asu wrote:

of course it is. but if you look at hamas vs. Israel on ideology alone its clear to see who is more violent.

find me one Israeli kindergarden that marches the kids around with toy machine guns and brainwash them into taking their own lives in the name of god when they get older. its sad.

even you would agree that violence is not the anwser. byzine's famous armed resistence movement does nothing to solve the situation. blowing up civilians in a suicide attack is only going to make things worse for Palestinians, not better. sure they can dance with joy that some Israelis are dead but its not going to get their land back.

and yes I would like to see Israel stop occupying some of the land its been taking in recent times. build a wall and be done with it.

would you say the same about the algerians that were fighting for independence from france? the french who were fighting for independence from the Nazis? what would you say then?

Byrnzie · October 2007

VedJam wrote:

no! plz don't take me the wrong way, i ment more of them were raised to a violent activists than i see here in Israel..
from where i see it, 50% or more have pure hate for the jews they were raised to see.. i would feel the same way if i was in that particuler situation..
so i really don't see an end.

Nobody here is gonna give you a hard time - despite what Jlew is trying to stir up - so relax.
I was thinking ealier that I'd be interested to hear what you have to say re: your earlier comment about having '..a crapy goverment'. When I was 17 I don't remember giving a toss about politics. So do you and your friends discuss these issues? What do you, and they, say about it? Are you in an area that is near to the Palestinian border? And if so, have you ever been in danger?
When I was growing up in England and I.R.A bombs were going off all over the place, I remember not being at all bothered by it. When I did stop to think about the situation with Ireland I remember simply thinking that the Irish had a pretty good reason to 'have the hump' with the English for having nicked their land, e.t.c. So what do you really think about the Palestinians? Do you have much, if any, contact with them?

jlew24asu · October 2007

_FiveAgainstOne_ wrote:

would you say the same about the algerians that were fighting for independence from france? the french who were fighting for independence from the Nazis? what would you say then?

different time, different people, different land.

fuck · October 2007

yeah, i was also going to mention that, vedjam, please don't take any of what I say extremely offensive or anything. after all, at the end of the day, we're all PJ fans, right?

anyway, I am also interested in hearing these things, although I grew up in a much more... politically involved family so I've been exposed to these things since practically birth.

I do remember watching a documentary when I was younger that I can't, for the life of me, remember the name of at all. It was very good though. It had both Israelis and Palestinians in it. Many Israelis were very open-minded to dealing with Palestinians and stuff, as were many Palestinians, but of course on both sides they showed a couple crazy extremists that had different views. When I went to Israel, I was able to speak to many Jewish scholars and had lots of interesting discussions, but never talked to students that much.

fuck · October 2007

jlew24asu wrote:

different time, different people, different land.

uh huh, that's definitely a logical thing to say.

the algerian revolution and the nazi occupation of france were also during different times, different people, and different land but both of those were fine?

is that your argument?

jlew24asu · October 2007

_FiveAgainstOne_ wrote:

uh huh, that's definitely a logical thing to say.

the algerian revolution and the nazi occupation of france were also during different times, different people, and different land but both of those were fine?

is that your argument?

we are talking about the most holiest place on earth for 3 major religions. comparing it other events in time is pointless.

Byrnzie · October 2007

jlew24asu wrote:

of course it is. but if you look at hamas vs. Israel on ideology alone its clear to see who is more violent.

So Hamas is more violent on ideology alone? He he! Now I've heard it all. Israel has been standing on the throat of Palestine with a heavy boot for 36 years, and whilst looking down at it's slowly suffocating victim it asks that it's victim renounce violence, whilst simultaneously massacring it's people, bulldozing their houses, and stealing their land.
But Hamas is more violent ideologically. :rolleyes:
I wonder how you'd be if placed in their shoes? Or is it really, totally impossible for you to stretch your imagination that far?

mammasan · October 2007

Byrnzie wrote:

Please provide evidence of where Hamas has said it doesn't want to come to '..the table..'. As far as I'm aware, It's Israel and it's sponsor - the U.S - that is refusing to negotiate with Hamas. So I think you've got things the wrong way around. Hamas is telling Abbas and his crew to pull out of the talks because, quite rightly, nothing of any good will come out of them under the present circumstances.

Hamas was invited to the talks but it's leadership, not the elected officials mind you, where the one's that stated that no representative from Hamas would attend. The elected officials who govern over the Gaza Strip want to negotiate. They realize that diplomacy not violence is the only path that will produce results. It's is the fanatics that run the organization who have no interest in peace but in killing as many Israelis as possible. If the political wing of Hamas ever wants to be taken seriously it needs to seperate itself from the militant wing.

jlew24asu · October 2007

Byrnzie wrote:

So Hamas is more violent on ideology alone? He he! Now I've heard it all. Israel has been standing on the throat of Palestine with a heavy boot for 36 years, and whilst looking down at it's slowly suffocating victim it asks that it's victim renounce violence, whilst simultaneously massacring it's people, bulldozing their houses, and stealing their land.
But Hamas is more violent ideologically. :rolleyes:
I wonder how you'd be if placed in their shoes? Or is it really, totally impossible for you to stretch your imagination that far?

I'm talking about conservative Islam that hamas lives by. from birth they teach to kill yourself in the name of allah.

mammasan · October 2007

Byrnzie wrote:

So Hamas is more violent on ideology alone? He he! Now I've heard it all. Israel has been standing on the throat of Palestine with a heavy boot for 36 years, and whilst looking down at it's slowly suffocating victim it asks that it's victim renounce violence, whilst simultaneously massacring it's people, bulldozing their houses, and stealing their land.
But Hamas is more violent ideologically. :rolleyes:
I wonder how you'd be if placed in their shoes? Or is it really, totally impossible for you to stretch your imagination that far?

Both parties are equally responsible for the blood shed in that region, but ideologically Hamas is a more violent organization. Israel's violent behavior is in responce to terrorist attacks by groups like Hamas. Now I believe that the Israeli government does go way to far in it's retalitory attacks, but Hamas priority is the eradication of the Jewish state. They have no desire to live peacefully next to the Israelis. Israel in recent years has made attempts to live peacefully with it's Palestinian neighbors. They could do more but they have at least tried.

Also while Israel's occupation of Palestinian land is unacceptable setting off a bomb on a crowded bus is never an acceptable method to dealing with it.

VedJam · October 2007

Byrnzie wrote:

Nobody here is gonna give you a hard time - despite what Jlew is trying to stir up - so relax.
I was thinking ealier that I'd be interested to hear what you have to say re: your earlier comment about having '..a crapy goverment'. When I was 17 I don't remember giving a toss about politics. So do you and your friends discuss these issues? What do you, and they, say about it? Are you in an area that is near to the Palestinian border? And if so, have you ever been in danger?
When I was growing up in England and I.R.A bombs were going off all over the place, I remember not being at all bothered by it. When I did stop to think about the situation with Ireland I remember simply thinking that the Irish had a pretty good reason to 'have the hump' with the English for having nicked their land, e.t.c. So what do you really think about the Palestinians? Do you have much, if any, contact with them?

when i said i think i have a crapy gov. i was mainly refering to the ppl in charge of the bad organization and consequences of the last war between Israel and jordan.. and posiblly the situation which is letting me write those posts so early in the morning [the teachers are on strike, for a good reason..].
im sure if u would have been 17 in my troubled time and situation u would feel obligated to talk with your friends [or participate in forums..] about it..
and no, im not too close to Gaza or any of the bordered Arab countries, but every now and then when they release a threat that says they'll be soon to send a misile to Tel-Aviv and other cities that are near me, its not too comforting..

i don't think bad of them.. i just try to keep my life a usual..
i participated in some volunteering organizations and had some joint activities with Arabs and they have the same interests as ours..

in a country that its the law to go to the army and almost every day soldiers are getting killed it hits close to home, so i can't help to hope that in two years it won't be my friends and me [if i choose to be in combat or not..].

mammasan · October 2007

VedJam wrote:

when i said i think i have a crapy gov. i was mainly refering to the ppl in charge of the bad organization and consequences of the last war between Israel and jordan.. and posiblly the situation which is letting me write those posts so early in the morning [the teachers are on strike, for a good reason..].
im sure if u would have been 17 in my troubled time and situation u would feel obligated to talk with your friends [or participate in forums..] about it..
and no, im not too close to Gaza or any of the bordered Arab countries, but every now and then when they release a threat that says they'll be soon to send a misile to Tel-Aviv and other cities that are near me, its not too comforting..

i don't think bad of them.. i just try to keep my life a usual..
i participated in some volunteering organizations and had some joint activities with Arabs and they have the same interests as ours..

in a country that its the law to go to the army and almost every day soldiers are getting killed it hits close to home, so i can't help to hope that in two years it won't be my friends and me [if i choose to be in combat or not..].

Vedjam if I may ask you a question. I have always felt that the Israeli government needs to offer more support to the more moderate partties within the Palestinian government, namely Fatah. Maybe I'm wrong here but it seems that the Israeli government never really offered that party the support it needed in order to combat the more extremest element in Palestine. I know there is more that the Palestinian authorities could do to reach a peacefull agreement, but do you feel that the Israeli government can do more to reach the same goal.

VedJam · October 2007

mammasan wrote:

Vedjam if I may ask you a question. I have always felt that the Israeli government needs to offer more support to the more moderate partties within the Palestinian government, namely Fatah. Maybe I'm wrong here but it seems that the Israeli government never really offered that party the support it needed in order to combat the more extremest element in Palestine. I know there is more that the Palestinian authorities could do to reach a peacefull agreement, but do you feel that the Israeli government can do more to reach the same goal.

i don't really know what means of support the goverment can offer to fatah [, but to express the sorrow that they did not get elected by the palestinians]
but when that decision came to place i could hear ppl saying its a shame that most have picked the extremests side of the argument..

i KNOW there's more that can be done, and with theirs side too, i just don't know how much..

mammasan · October 2007

VedJam wrote:

i don't really know what means of support the goverment can offer to fatah [, but to express the sorrow that they did not get elected by the palestinians]
but when that decision came to place i could hear ppl saying its a shame that most have picked the extremests side of the argument..

i KNOW there's more that can be done, and with theirs side too, i just don't know how much..

Let me elaborate. Again please correct me if I'm wrong, but I always here how Israel will not sit down for talks as long as there are attacks against the country from Palestinian radicals and how they want fatah to do something about them. It is pretty obvious to me that fatah does not have the resources to defeat these radicals especially Hamas who is backed by Syria and Iran. Is there a way that Israel can offer support to Fatah to help them supress the terrorist element within their borders and/or maybe looses the leash a little in order for Fatah to gain more support from the average Palestinian citizen.

VedJam · October 2007

mammasan wrote:

Let me elaborate. Again please correct me if I'm wrong, but I always here how Israel will not sit down for talks as long as there are attacks against the country from Palestinian radicals and how they want fatah to do something about them. It is pretty obvious to me that fatah does not have the resources to defeat these radicals especially Hamas who is backed by Syria and Iran. Is there a way that Israel can offer support to Fatah to help them supress the terrorist element within their borders and/or maybe looses the leash a little in order for Fatah to gain more support from the average Palestinian citizen.

the initial and primary reason that the army is there is to help us and them to.. it is very clear since the last war that fatah's people is launching missiles and retreating to populated areas mainly so that we woulden't shoot them down.. thats the main reason ppl get hurt over there..

i think maybe Israel is not loosening the leash a little so that it woulden't appear as weak and invite even more attack after they already went in there "uninvited"..

Israel, US, and Abbas want peace...Hamas doesn't

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