Question to Christians about Jesus's family

A Surprise Left · December 2006

harmless_little_f*** wrote:

These sorts of miracles happen every day around the world, but we always dismiss them. These days, all we want is a 'perfectly reasonable scientific explanation' for them which, obviously, the ancient jews and Christians weren't looking for.

They happen every day around the world? I have read of many supernatural events occuring in tribes in Papua New Guinea and other such places. Why not downtown New York? Obviously one could argue God simply chooses not to give mankind any miracles, since mankind did not accept the miracles of Christ, up to you to decide if that answer is a cop-out.

soulsinging · December 2006

dkst0426 wrote:

And you're assuming that those who think it is ok to have sex outside of marriage also think wearing a condom is going too far. THAT is what I meant about painting with broad strokes.

where did i say that? i said some people honestly do exactly this and those people are funny cos it makes no sense. geez, you christians are so damned defensive. just looking for reasons to be offended arent you?

soulsinging · December 2006

chopitdown wrote:

I attend a Community church; they have men and women working together. They don't have a woman's pastor or anything but they have women that lead the womens ministries.

so women are not allowed to hold positions of power like the pastor?

cornnifer · December 2006

A Surprise Left wrote:

They happen every day around the world? I have read of many supernatural events occuring in tribes in Papua New Guinea and other such places. Why not downtown New York? Obviously one could argue God simply chooses not to give mankind any miracles, since mankind did not accept the miracles of Christ, up to you to decide if that answer is a cop-out.

It depends what kind of miracles you are looking for. 2000 years of immaculate conceptions? A new savior every year? Some would argue that miracles DO happen in downtown New York.

As far as the second part of this post, personally, i'll be honest, lately i 'm having a hard time believing God is as involved in the fortunes of man as we sometimes like to think. Perhaps, yes, it is because we have collectively turned our backs and decided to make our own way, i don't know. Don't get me wrong, my faith in God and Christ as my savior is as strong as ever.

cornnifer · December 2006

soulsinging wrote:

where did i say that? i said some people honestly do exactly this and those people are funny cos it makes no sense. geez, you christians are so damned defensive. just looking for reasons to be offended arent you?

Let's be fair, Souls, you do make some pretty broad generalizations about Christians.

harmless_little_f*** · December 2006

A Surprise Left wrote:

They happen every day around the world? I have read of many supernatural events occuring in tribes in Papua New Guinea and other such places. Why not downtown New York? Obviously one could argue God simply chooses not to give mankind any miracles, since mankind did not accept the miracles of Christ, up to you to decide if that answer is a cop-out.

Like I said, the Jews had the world-view that miracles and the supernatural existed, so they saw them. Similarly, a Papua New Guinea tribesman exists within the same world view. On average, the downtown New Yorker is a hard-nosed, Western cynic. If there is a God (this discussion doesn't concern that), it's perfectly reasonable to suggest that he probably performs miracles for the people who are genuinely wanting or needing to see them.

harmless_little_f*** · December 2006

cornnifer wrote:

It depends what kind of miracles you are looking for. 2000 years of immaculate conceptions? A new savior every year? Some would argue that miracles DO happen in downtown New York.

As far as the second part of this post, personally, i'll be honest, lately i 'm having a hard time believing God is as involved in the fortunes of man as we sometimes like to think. Perhaps, yes, it is because we have collectively turned our backs and decided to make our own way, i don't know. Don't get me wrong, my faith in God and Christ as my savior is as strong as ever.

I believe you're right, personally. Just IMO. It's because we're not interested in God. If I'm trying to be somebody's friend, and they're like 'Screw you, you ugly twat,' I'm not going to walk up to them and talk to them. If they're not interested in me in the slightest, I'll say OK, you're on your own.

angelica · December 2006

harmless_little_f*** wrote:

Like I said, the Jews had the world-view that miracles and the supernatural existed, so they saw them. Similarly, a Papua New Guinea tribesman exists within the same world view. On average, the downtown New Yorker is a hard-nosed, Western cynic. If there is a God (this discussion doesn't concern that), it's perfectly reasonable to suggest that he probably performs miracles for the people who are genuinely wanting or needing to see them.

I very much agree. I see God and miracles all around me. It's a matter of attuning oneself to this level of life. And the more one focuses on such attunement, the more it reveals itself to one. To quote the title of one of my favourite inspirational books "You'll See it When You Believe it". We literally choose the parameters of what we allow in by our own brain programming. Some see miracles. Some see limits.

soulsinging · December 2006

cornnifer wrote:

Let's be fair, Souls, you do make some pretty broad generalizations about Christians.

i didnt with that statement. i said that those particular people bearing that particularly goofy and inconsequential viewpoint are funny. i think the real problem is dskt or whoever need remove the stick from their arse and loosen up.

soulsinging · December 2006

harmless_little_f*** wrote:

I believe you're right, personally. Just IMO. It's because we're not interested in God. If I'm trying to be somebody's friend, and they're like 'Screw you, you ugly twat,' I'm not going to walk up to them and talk to them. If they're not interested in me in the slightest, I'll say OK, you're on your own.

so god is just a petulant and vain human who happens to have superpowers and live forever? the christian view i was given of god is that those people who ignore him the most are the ones he will try hardest to reach.

chopitdown · December 2006

soulsinging wrote:

so women are not allowed to hold positions of power like the pastor?

they are pastors of womens ministries and the church utilizes women VERY well... i know the loaded statement when i see it. We don't have a woman senior pastor but we by no stretch of the imagination keep their heads covered and only in charge of the nursery / kitchen like I think you were hoping

cornnifer · December 2006

soulsinging wrote:

i didnt with that statement. .

Ahhh... but you admit that you do.

soulsinging · December 2006

chopitdown wrote:

they are pastors of womens ministries and the church utilizes women VERY well... i know the loaded statement when i see it. We don't have a woman senior pastor but we by no stretch of the imagination keep their heads covered and only in charge of the nursery / kitchen like I think you were hoping

no, im hoping that they can hold every position of power men can. are women ALLOWED to be senior pastor? i dont care if there is one, but are they allowed to obtain that post? or is the highest position in your church, the one that makes all final decisions, solely reserved for men? that's what i want to know. far as i can see, if all they can do is women's ministry, how is that different from keeping them in the nursery and kitchen? they're still only allowed to do women's work and men are the only ones allowed real power and influence within the church.

soulsinging · December 2006

cornnifer wrote:

Ahhh... but you admit that you do.

from time to time. ive also been known to be a stuanch defender of the reasonableness of religious belief when people attack it as being totally dumb and irrelevant. i simply attack blind devotion in all forms on either side. be it mindless, arrogant atheism, or willfully ignorant and dismissive fundatmentalism.

chopitdown · December 2006

soulsinging wrote:

no, im hoping that they can hold every position of power men can. are women ALLOWED to be senior pastor? i dont care if there is one, but are they allowed to obtain that post? or is the highest position in your church, the one that makes all final decisions, solely reserved for men? that's what i want to know. far as i can see, if all they can do is women's ministry, how is that different from keeping them in the nursery and kitchen? they're still only allowed to do women's work and men are the only ones allowed real power and influence within the church.

my guess is they aren't allowed to hold the post of senior pastor. I'd ask you, what is your idea of womens ministry? It seems you have them pegged as only doing the food service and taking care of kids. They offer bible studies, classes (for stay at home moms and professional women), women are voting members in the church (so they have a say in who the Senior pastor is, just like the men who are members do).
To be honest there are multiple pastors; I just switched churches a few months ago and I don't really know the politics of the church too much. The reason I swithced is b/c they are very good at integrating with the community and the other churches in the area. It seems they are really trying to build people up not cause divisions and segregation (and they are keeping theologically sound; it's not a "rah rah feel good all the time" sort of place; it is a very practical place and they try to make the christian walk seem real not by just saying things, but by practicing what they preach.)

iamica · December 2006

From the Bible:
"When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus." (Matthew 1:24-25)
This passage says Joseph didn't have sex with Mary until she'd given birth, implying that they did have sex after Jesus was born. And I remember learning in my History of Christian thought class that a Jewish marriage was not official until it was consummated by sex, so if Joseph and Mary never had sex, that means they were never officially married in the Jewish religion.
The Bible also says that Jesus had siblings:
"Isn't this the carpenter's son? Isn't his mother's name Mary, and aren't his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? Aren't all his sisters here with us? Where then did this man get all these things?" (Matthew 13:55-56)
"Isn't this the carpenter? Isn't this Mary's son and the brother of James, Joseph (or Joses), Judas and Simon? Aren't his sisters here with us?" (Mark 6:3)
"Now Jesus' mother and brothers came to see him, but they were not able to get near him because of the crowd. Someone told him, 'Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to see you.' He replied, 'My mother and brothers are those who hear God's word and put it into practice."" (Luke 8:19-21)
"After this, Jesus went around in Galilee, purposely staying away from Judea because the Jews there were waiting to take his life. But when the Jewish Feast of Tabernacles was near, Jesus' brothers said to him, 'You ought to leave here and go to Judea, so that your disciples may see the miracles you do. No one who wants to become a public figure acts in secret. Since you are doing these things, show yourself to the world.' For even his own brothers did not believe in him...However, after his brothers had left for the Feast, he went also, not publicly, but in secret." (John 7:1-5,10)

So what I gather from all this is that Mary was a virgin that had Jesus by the power of the Holy Spirit, and then she and Joseph consummated their marriage after Jesus was born, and had sons and daughters after Jesus. I really don't think this should adversely affect Christianity; just because Jesus had brothers and sisters and just because Mary didn't remain a virgin her whole life doesn't change that Jesus died on the cross for our sins, and it also doesn't alter his teachings and his message.
I don't think Jesus was married, and the Bible doesn't say that he was, but if he was, I don't see why it's such a big deal. There's no requirement that says the Messiah or the Son of God had to remain a virgin.

A Surprise Left · December 2006

harmless_little_f*** wrote:

Like I said, the Jews had the world-view that miracles and the supernatural existed, so they saw them. Similarly, a Papua New Guinea tribesman exists within the same world view. On average, the downtown New Yorker is a hard-nosed, Western cynic. If there is a God (this discussion doesn't concern that), it's perfectly reasonable to suggest that he probably performs miracles for the people who are genuinely wanting or needing to see them.

yeah but a tribe in Papua New Guinea will think they have angered the spirits and go to the witch doctor for help, when there is almost certainly a rational explantation for the problem their community is facing. In biblical times miracles (at least according to the bible) done in front of the Roman and Greeks for example who were not as supernaturally inclined as the Jews. Why not today?

Jeanie · December 2006

soulsinging wrote:

from time to time. ive also been known to be a stuanch defender of the reasonableness of religious belief when people attack it as being totally dumb and irrelevant. i simply attack blind devotion in all forms on either side. be it mindless, arrogant atheism, or willfully ignorant and dismissive fundatmentalism.

Thank you soulsinging for "speaking" so eloquently my own point of view.:)
I have always held to the quote " I may not agree with what you say but I defend to the death your right to say it" This is also my motto for belief. Believe what you will and I will believe what I will and hopefully we can learn something from each other, it is not necessary to try to change each others mind.

InJuddsTree · December 2006

Anyone else read through this thread and feel the immediate urge to have a beer? The contributors to this thread should contact Budweiser's marketing department. You're on a winner

Jeanie · January 2007

InJuddsTree wrote:

Anyone else read through this thread and feel the immediate urge to have a beer? The contributors to this thread should contact Budweiser's marketing department. You're on a winner

Geez! I'll have to go read the whole thing now! Thanks for that! NOT!

Question to Christians about Jesus's family

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