Venezuela's Chavez may take over schools

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  • spiral out
    spiral out Posts: 1,052
    jlew24asu wrote:
    what really gets me, is the Europeans coming in this thread and claiming to know what is taught in american schools. on top of that, defend chavez's actions of taking over schools. IMO, they do it solely based on the fact chavez is anti-america. a foe of the US is a friend of theirs.

    What gets me is you are a hypocrite.

    Do you not think we can read up on America just like you read a little and started this dumb thread.

    Honestly think before you type.
    Keep on rockin in the free world!!!!

    The economy has polarized to the point where the wealthiest 10% now own 85% of the nation’s wealth. Never before have the bottom 90% been so highly indebted, so dependent on the wealthy.
  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    jlew24asu wrote:
    yea what about it?

    we just do it with a bit more subtlety. american education is by no means operating under some private market force standard. the curriculum is carefully controlled by the state. witness the genesis debate. many states still flat out refuse to let anyone say the word evolution in a science classroom.

    not that i agree with what chavez is doing, but it's their country and their problem and i have trouble seeing him as "the worst." he's only gotten any attention becos he has been willing to talk shit about america to puff up his notoriety. if he had kept his mouth shut like everyone else in his neck of the world, you'd never even know his name. and you wouldn't dislike him any more than any other socialist ruler in the world. he's no better or worse. you only hate him becos he insulted your country and you reacted like a juvenile trading mom insults on the playground.

    how about we worry about our own incredibly worthless schools and let venezuela deal with theirs?
  • spiral out
    spiral out Posts: 1,052
    soulsinging wrote:
    we just do it with a bit more subtlety. american education is by no means operating under some private market force standard.

    not that i agree with what chavez is doing, but it's their country and their problem and i have trouble seeing him as "the worst." he's only gotten any attention becos he has been willing to talk shit about america to puff up his notoriety. if he had kept his mouth shut like everyone else in his neck of the world, you'd never even know his name. and you wouldn't dislike him any more than any other socialist ruler in the world. he's no better or worse. you only hate him becos he insulted your country and you reacted like a juvenile trading mom insults on the playground.

    how about we worry about our own incredibly worthless schools and let venezuela deal with theirs?

    Well said.
    Keep on rockin in the free world!!!!

    The economy has polarized to the point where the wealthiest 10% now own 85% of the nation’s wealth. Never before have the bottom 90% been so highly indebted, so dependent on the wealthy.
  • TheVoiceInside
    TheVoiceInside Posts: 361
    soulsinging wrote:
    we just do it with a bit more subtlety. american education is by no means operating under some private market force standard. the curriculum is carefully controlled by the state. witness the genesis debate. many states still flat out refuse to let anyone say the word evolution in a science classroom.



    I believe that there is an organization that does control private schools in the US. That is the Middle State Commission on Higher Education. If you dont follow their corriculum then they wont accredit you and that means your school aint worth dick.
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    soulsinging wrote:
    we just do it with a bit more subtlety. american education is by no means operating under some private market force standard. the curriculum is carefully controlled by the state. witness the genesis debate. many states still flat out refuse to let anyone say the word evolution in a science classroom.
    I disagree. curriculum is controlled by several organizations including the state. as they should, we cant have rogue teachers and cities teaching about porn or something in classrooms. I dont know much about you evolution claims but go to any state college and you can pick countless evolutions study courses. and you fail to mention the thousands of private schools that virtually go untouched by the state.

    chavez is doing the complete opposite. he wants controll of ALL schools, public and private.

    CARACAS, Venezuela (AP) — President Hugo Chavez threatened on Monday to close or take over any private school that refuses to submit to the oversight of his socialist government as it develops a new curriculum and textbooks.

    "Society cannot allow the private sector to do whatever it wants," said Chavez, speaking on the first day of classes.

    All schools, public and private, must admit state inspectors and submit to the government's new educational system, or be closed and nationalized, with the state taking responsibility for the education of their children, Chavez said.

    http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2007-09-17-venezuela-chavez_N.htm
    soulsinging wrote:
    not that i agree with what chavez is doing, but it's their country and their problem and i have trouble seeing him as "the worst." he's only gotten any attention becos he has been willing to talk shit about america to puff up his notoriety. if he had kept his mouth shut like everyone else in his neck of the world, you'd never even know his name. and you wouldn't dislike him any more than any other socialist ruler in the world. he's no better or worse. you only hate him becos he insulted your country and you reacted like a juvenile trading mom insults on the playground.
    I hate all socialist dictators. but he is the new kid on the block and trying to become one. sorry I'm picking on your buddy.
    soulsinging wrote:
    how about we worry about our own incredibly worthless schools and let venezuela deal with theirs?
    I dont see our schools as incredibly worthless. and sorry for bringing awareness to what chavez is doing. I think its sick.
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    TheVoiceInside wrote:
    I believe that there is an organization that does control private schools in the US. That is the Middle State Commission on Higher Education.

    first I heard of them...here is some info

    http://www.msche.org/?Nav1=ABOUT&Nav2=MISSION

    TheVoiceInside wrote:
    If you dont follow their corriculum then they wont accredit you and that means your school aint worth dick.

    sounds made up but if you say so.
  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    jlew24asu wrote:
    I disagree. curriculum is controlled by several organizations including the state. as they should, we cant have rogue teachers and cities teaching about porn or something in classrooms. I dont know much about you evolution claims but go to any state college and you can pick countless evolutions study courses. and you fail to mention the thousands of private schools that virtually go untouched by the state.

    chavez is doing the complete opposite. he wants controll of ALL schools, public and private.

    CARACAS, Venezuela (AP) — President Hugo Chavez threatened on Monday to close or take over any private school that refuses to submit to the oversight of his socialist government as it develops a new curriculum and textbooks.

    "Society cannot allow the private sector to do whatever it wants," said Chavez, speaking on the first day of classes.

    All schools, public and private, must admit state inspectors and submit to the government's new educational system, or be closed and nationalized, with the state taking responsibility for the education of their children, Chavez said.

    http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2007-09-17-venezuela-chavez_N.htm

    I hate all socialist dictators. but he is the new kid on the block and trying to become one. sorry I'm picking on your buddy.

    I dont see our schools as incredibly worthless. and sorry for bringing awareness to what chavez is doing. I think its sick.

    i think the state of our schools is pretty sick. the stats are increasingly depressing... plummeting math and science scores. no geographic knowledge. our schools are failing.

    american private schools are private in name only. if you don't meet federal curriculum guidelines that diploma isn't worth shit. and yeah, once you get to college you can take evolution eh? no need for our high schoolers to actually learn science right? venezuelans can come to an american college if they want to learn stuff the state doesn't like, just like americans have to do.

    i believe kansas and ohio are two states where the word evolution is not allowed in any curriculum. if this is not state control of ideology on a par with anything venezuela may or may not be doing, then i don't know what is.

    chavez is not my buddy. i don't like this but i don't live there so it isn't my problem. my question is if you are so concerned for state control of schools why aren't you calling for doing away with curriculums built around passing standardized tests and nothing else? with the department of education? with creationism imposed on classrooms? maybe chavez is doing this to make sure teachers aren't showing porn in school as you seem to be so frightened of here (seriously, is that a real threat? you think the dept of education is the only thing stopping that from happening?).
  • TheVoiceInside
    TheVoiceInside Posts: 361
    jlew24asu wrote:
    first I heard of them...here is some info

    http://www.msche.org/?Nav1=ABOUT&Nav2=MISSION




    sounds made up but if you say so.


    i suggets you do some more research on them. That organization is not as simple as they portray themselves out to be. I know of this orgaization since i was in grammar school. Here in PR the public school system in very unrealible except for the college level so most people put their kids in private schools. most if not all the private schools here warrent acreditation from the middle schools because people see it as validation from the American school system.

    They in turn get to say what is going to be tought in the schools. its a kind of form of blackmail.
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    soulsinging wrote:
    i think the state of our schools is pretty sick. the stats are increasingly depressing... plummeting math and science scores. no geographic knowledge. our schools are failing.
    our school system isnt the best I agree. I admit I mostly only follow the chicago school system which has been getting better year after year with a new CEO Arie Duncan..

    http://www.suntimes.com/news/education/284649,cst-nws-topweb06n.article

    overall, the school system needs to get better and I'm much more concerned about us at home then I am overseas. but we arent at risk of having ALL of our schools taken over by the federal government.
    soulsinging wrote:
    american private schools are private in name only. if you don't meet federal curriculum guidelines that diploma isn't worth shit.
    shouldn't there be a set of guidlines? I see nothing wrong with that. maybe we should raise the bar on that.
    soulsinging wrote:
    and yeah, once you get to college you can take evolution eh? no need for our high schoolers to actually learn science right? venezuelans can come to an american college if they want to learn stuff the state doesn't like, just like americans have to do.

    i believe kansas and ohio are two states where the word evolution is not allowed in any curriculum. if this is not state control of ideology on a par with anything venezuela may or may not be doing, then i don't know what is.
    I really dont know about your evolution claims. plenty of science is taught in grade schools and high school.
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    TheVoiceInside wrote:
    i suggets you do some more research on them. That organization is not as simple as they portray themselves out to be. I know of this orgaization since i was in grammar school. Here in PR the public school system in very unrealible except for the college level so most people put their kids in private schools. most if not all the private schools here warrent acredition from the middle schools because people see it as validation from the American school system.

    They in turn get to say what is going to be tought in the schools. its a kind of form of blackmail.

    thats interesting. thanks, I'll check it out
  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    jlew24asu wrote:
    our school system isnt the best I agree. I admit I mostly only follow the chicago school system which has been getting better year after year with a new CEO Arie Duncan..

    http://www.suntimes.com/news/education/284649,cst-nws-topweb06n.article

    overall, the school system needs to get better and I'm much more concerned about us at home then I am overseas. but we arent at risk of having ALL of our schools taken over by the federal government.

    shouldn't there be a set of guidlines? I see nothing wrong with that. maybe we should raise the bar on that.

    I really dont know about your evolution claims. plenty of science is taught in grade schools and high school.

    well then, assuming the evolution claims are true, would you not agree that that is as reprehensible as what chavez is doing? or does it get a pass becos state control only upsets you when the people in control are different from you?

    there is a large gap between guidelines or standards, and curriculum control. a national graduation test for elementary and high school would be one thing. but micro testing on a field as blurry and ever-shifting as education makes no sense.
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    soulsinging wrote:
    well then, assuming the evolution claims are true, would you not agree that that is as reprehensible as what chavez is doing? or does it get a pass becos state control only upsets you when the people in control are different from you?
    evolution or intelligent design is a debatable science....no?

    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5014428

    A federal judge has ruled that intelligent design is a religious view that does not belong in a science classroom. The ruling comes as school boards and legislatures across the country debate how to teach students about the origins of life on Earth.

    but no, I dont think it should be left out. I dont really know where I stand to be honest with you.

    if you told me schools stopping teaching that america had slaves then yes I'd be upset.
  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    jlew24asu wrote:
    evolution or intelligent design is a debatable science....no?

    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5014428

    A federal judge has ruled that intelligent design is a religious view that does not belong in a science classroom. The ruling comes as school boards and legislatures across the country debate how to teach students about the origins of life on Earth.

    but no, I dont think it should be left out. I dont really know where I stand to be honest with you.

    if you told me schools stopping teaching that america had slaves then yes I'd be upset.

    uh, last i checked, no it was not a debatable science. and the judge ruling, while absolutely correct and sound, is an indicator. how the hell did it even become necessary to litigate that in federal court? becos of school manipulation. we teach as much propaganda in our schools as anyone else.

    by the by, how do you know what chavez is saying should be taught in venezuela? werent you just pissing and moaning about europeans making judgments of american schools they've never attended? you been to a venezuelan school? you know what they teach? you know for a fact chavez's plan is suppressing dissent rather than improving standards?
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    soulsinging wrote:
    uh, last i checked, no it was not a debatable science. and the judge ruling, while absolutely correct and sound, is an indicator. how the hell did it even become necessary to litigate that in federal court? becos of school manipulation. we teach as much propaganda in our schools as anyone else.
    I disagree. ( I didnt mean debatable science, I meant debated whether or not it should be taught) from what I have read the debate and legal cases have been going on for decades. and even if its not taught in grade school, the information is taught on every major campus in america. but because of that you claim American schools are only brainwashing tools of the government? give me a fucking break. love the word propaganda too. what propaganda do we teach here?
    soulsinging wrote:
    by the by, how do you know what chavez is saying should be taught in venezuela? werent you just pissing and moaning about europeans making judgments of american schools they've never attended? you been to a venezuelan school? you know what they teach? you know for a fact chavez's plan is suppressing dissent rather than improving standards?

    chavez wants to run ALL school his way. why are you defending this? I dont need to go to a school in Venezuela. I'm going off what chavez himself is saying.

    All schools, public and private, must admit state inspectors and submit to the government's new educational system, or be closed and nationalized, with the state taking responsibility for the education of their children, Chavez said.

    "We want to create our own ideology collectively — creative, diverse," the president said, adding that it would help develop values of "cooperation and solidarity."

    All schools will be bound to "subordinate themselves to the constitution" and comply with the "new Bolivarian educational system," he said, referring to his socialist movement named after South American independence hero Simon Bolivar.


    this isn't happening in America or anywhere in Europe
  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    jlew24asu wrote:
    I disagree. ( I didnt mean debatable science, I meant debated whether or not it should be taught) from what I have read the debate and legal cases have been going on for decades. and even if its not taught in grade school, the information is taught on every major campus in america. but because of that you claim American schools are only brainwashing tools of the government? give me a fucking break. love the word propaganda too. what propaganda do we teach here?



    chavez wants to run ALL school his way. why are you defending this? I dont need to go to a school in Venezuela. I'm going off what chavez himself is saying.

    All schools, public and private, must admit state inspectors and submit to the government's new educational system, or be closed and nationalized, with the state taking responsibility for the education of their children, Chavez said.

    "We want to create our own ideology collectively — creative, diverse," the president said, adding that it would help develop values of "cooperation and solidarity."

    All schools will be bound to "subordinate themselves to the constitution" and comply with the "new Bolivarian educational system," he said, referring to his socialist movement named after South American independence hero Simon Bolivar.


    this isn't happening in America or anywhere in Europe

    You know something I see about what Chavez is doing is that he is very clear and honest on what his educational aim is. What does our Department of Education give us that is straight-up across the board honest? Year after year, decade after decade America's educational aims have been some sort of subvert claim of making our students more competitive with the rest of the world. You know what? We're failing miserably. It's all a lie. Our educational system is complacent and confused.
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  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    gue_barium wrote:
    You know something I see about what Chavez is doing is that he is very clear and honest on what his educational aim is.

    clear and honest? yea is aim is to teach all children to follow the great leader. awesome.
    gue_barium wrote:
    What does our Department of Education give us that is straight-up across the board honest? Year after year, decade after decade America's educational aims have been some sort of subvert claim of making our students more competitive with the rest of the world. You know what? We're failing miserably. It's all a lie. Our educational system is complacent and confused.

    so I guess we should let the government take over? you are a socialist arent you?
  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    jlew24asu wrote:
    clear and honest? yea is aim is to teach all children to follow the great leader. awesome.



    so I guess we should let the government take over? you are a socialist arent you?

    We are one country.
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    except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    gue_barium wrote:
    We are one country.

    made up of 280 million minds. not 1
  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    jlew24asu wrote:
    made up of 280 million minds. not 1

    As well, Venezuela. To discredit its citizens as pawns rather than individuals seems a bit trite. One country, one vision, no? Do we stand together or do we fold under the pettiness of 280 million different opinions?
    all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
    except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    gue_barium wrote:
    As well, Venezuela. To discredit its citizens as pawns rather than individuals seems a bit trite. One country, one vision, no? Do we stand together or do we fold under the pettiness of 280 million different opinions?

    I'll never understand the socialist mindset. nor do I care to debate with you.

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