How much jail time for women who've had abortions?

catefrances · August 2007

Ahnimus wrote:

Hey, if you are pro-life, then your pro-support-payment stance makes a lot of sense. But if you advocate pro-choice, then how would it make sense?

you know what ryan, women hold the power in this situation. guys are just gonna have to suck it up. but if you're fine with children growing up in poverty or without whatever privileges the father's support(in any form) would provide then whatc an i say? it doesn't look like we are going to come to a concensus on this issue.

catefrances · August 2007

you're right ryan, it is a double standard. but as i said before women hold the power in this situation so the guys are just gonna have to suck it up.

know1 · August 2007

know1 wrote:

Not sure if it's been mentioned in this thread, but what about this woman in the news who has allegedly killed 4 or 5 of her unborn children? I believe there is talk of charging her. Now if abortion is legal, how can they press charges against her?

Here's the quote I found:

"Freeman was charged with murder under a state law that allows murder prosecutions of those who cause the death of a fetus that may have been able to survive outside the womb."

That is one of the more hypocritical laws out there.

I'm surprised nobody really addressed this quote (above).

Jeanie · August 2007

know1 wrote:

I'm surprised nobody really addressed this quote (above).

I would have if I'd known the case you are speaking of.

Not heard anything about it here.

Cosmo · August 2007

know1 wrote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by know1
---
"Not sure if it's been mentioned in this thread, but what about this woman in the news who has allegedly killed 4 or 5 of her unborn children? I believe there is talk of charging her. Now if abortion is legal, how can they press charges against her?

Here's the quote I found:

"Freeman was charged with murder under a state law that allows murder prosecutions of those who cause the death of a fetus that may have been able to survive outside the womb."

That is one of the more hypocritical laws out there. "
---

I'm surprised nobody really addressed this quote (above).

...
Awesome, bud... you just quoted yourself... just like Dwight Schrute.

Ahnimus · August 2007

catefrances wrote:

you're right ryan, it is a double standard. but as i said before women hold the power in this situation so the guys are just gonna have to suck it up.

I'm actually looking at the effects of impoverishment on child development and it's not very good. But that is besides the point.

"women hold the power"

Let's look at this from natures perspective, without laws.

The male and female have sex, the woman is pregnant, the guy fucks of or sticks around, it's entirely his choice and in that sense he holds the 'power'. At least the power to choose his own actions.

Enter the law, the law says this is wrong, and the women should be in charge of the men's actions, while maintaining their own freedom.

So, yes, women have the power, by law, not because it's the natural course. But because of some seriously bias and ridiculous laws that have been passed.

Ahnimus · August 2007

know1 wrote:

I'm surprised nobody really addressed this quote (above).

I think abortion of actual fetuses is quite rare, or should be. The term fetus is used far too loosely.

Jeanie · August 2007

Ahnimus wrote:

I'm actually looking at the effects of impoverishment on child development and it's not very good. But that is besides the point.

"women hold the power"

Let's look at this from natures perspective, without laws.

The male and female have sex, the woman is pregnant, the guy fucks of or sticks around, it's entirely his choice and in that sense he holds the 'power'. At least the power to choose his own actions.

Enter the law, the law says this is wrong, and the women should be in charge of the men's actions, while maintaining their own freedom.

So, yes, women have the power, by law, not because it's the natural course. But because of some seriously bias and ridiculous laws that have been passed.

Ryan, I'm confused by this. How is it biased against men if we ultimately accept that people have a right to do what they will with their own body?

If you say that it's ok for a guy to screw without a condom and then leave if he chooses then you have to say that if his screwing a woman resulted in her pregnancy then she has the right to "leave" the situation also. As far as I can see both parties have rights and responsibilities they just come at different times in the equation.

I don't know I'm just reading this as it's ok for a guy to scatter his sperm wherever he wants and that if that then results in him "making a mess" so to speak in someone elses body then they have no right to clean up that mess.

There's nothing "powerful" about abortion. It is what it is.

Maybe I'm misreading what you mean?

RolandTD20Kdrummer · August 2007

surferdude wrote:

But your evidence takes a belief that it is factual.

You can tell me that your thermometer tells you it's 33 degrees celcius outside. It takes belief that the thermometer is right even though it is a tool of science. It takes belief that we even have a true understanding of heat and science to think that even a properly calibrated thermometer is the way to measure temperature. All your evidence takes just as much belief as any of my beliefs. I'm just not afraid to acknowledge them as beliefs. I don't try to quell any fears I may have by making our science to be omnipotent.

Science is as close to the truth as anything man has come up with so far. It stems from absolutes. Water freezes solid at a certain value, and holds true. It can even be cross referenced with various altitudes to perfection and 100% predictability. Everything is based upwards from solid and reliable reference. It's damn good, and it;s the best thing going for explaining this physical realm from every possible avenue, upwards from the table of all known elements.

It's a lot (lot) more than people realize. Especially in the US where the vast majority of people are very much science illiterate.

catefrances · August 2007

surferdude wrote:

maybe you just have had the wrong partner(s). The function of sex is to have a good, good time for two or more people.

i'm talking base function not fringe benefits.

catefrances · August 2007

Ahnimus wrote:

I'm actually looking at the effects of impoverishment on child development and it's not very good. But that is besides the point.

"women hold the power"

Let's look at this from natures perspective, without laws.

The male and female have sex, the woman is pregnant, the guy fucks of or sticks around, it's entirely his choice and in that sense he holds the 'power'. At least the power to choose his own actions.

Enter the law, the law says this is wrong, and the women should be in charge of the men's actions, while maintaining their own freedom.

So, yes, women have the power, by law, not because it's the natural course. But because of some seriously bias and ridiculous laws that have been passed.

no not just by law ryan. i am not speaking of forcing men to pay child support. i'm talking about the woman's decisions when it comes to her own body.

and honestly how much power does either sex have when we have no free will anyway?

Ahnimus · August 2007

Jeanie wrote:

Ryan, I'm confused by this. How is it biased against men if we ultimately accept that people have a right to do what they will with their own body?

If you say that it's ok for a guy to screw without a condom and then leave if he chooses then you have to say that if his screwing a woman resulted in her pregnancy then she has the right to "leave" the situation also. As far as I can see both parties have rights and responsibilities they just come at different times in the equation.

I don't know I'm just reading this as it's ok for a guy to scatter his sperm wherever he wants and that if that then results in him "making a mess" so to speak in someone elses body then they have no right to clean up that mess.

There's nothing "powerful" about abortion. It is what it is.

Maybe I'm misreading what you mean?

Yea, you are misreading it. I'm saying it's ok for women to walk away from pregnancy (a.k.a have an abortion), but it should be equally ok for men to walk away. That doesn't seem to be the case.

Jeanie · August 2007

Ahnimus wrote:

Yea, you are misreading it. I'm saying it's ok for women to walk away from pregnancy (a.k.a have an abortion), but it should be equally ok for men to walk away. That doesn't seem to be the case.

How so? Not man bashing, but it seems to me they do walk away and it is ok.

I mean it's not like a man is hounded because his girlfriend had an abortion. I mean when was the last time you heard people getting up in arms in the media about men contributing to the abortion rate? Or chasing a guy around waving placards because the child he helped concieve was aborted? When was the last time that men where even expected to consider a jail term for having contributed to the action of an abortion? Guys that get a girl pregnant don't have to undergo invasive surgery to ensure their freedom. They don't have to undergo psychological interviews to assertain if they are "allowed" to abort. They aren't vilified.

That's not to say that I think they should be. I'm just not understanding why you think they don't get to walk away and it's ok. Or that women do.

catefrances · August 2007

Jeanie wrote:

How so? Not man bashing, but it seems to me they do walk away and it is ok.

I mean it's not like a man is hounded because his girlfriend had an abortion. I mean when was the last time you heard people getting up in arms in the media about men contributing to the abortion rate? Or chasing a guy around waving placards because the child he helped concieve was aborted? When was the last time that men where even expected to consider a jail term for having contributed to the action of an abortion? Guys that get a girl pregnant don't have to undergo invasive surgery to ensure their freedom. They don't have to undergo psychological interviews to assertain if they are "allowed" to abort. They aren't vilified.

That's not to say that I think they should be. I'm just not understanding why you think they don't get to walk away and it's ok. Or that women do.

i don't see men as contributing to the abortion rate per se jeanie.
and you have to know in this patriarchal society we live in any bias will go the way of the being benficial to the man. the fact that laws are needed to be enacted in order that a child receives the benefits it does is testimony to the fact that men are dogs who given the choice probably would rather walk away than ensure their child has an advantage or even a chance at the life ALL children deserve, regardless of the circumstances under which it was bought into this shit hole of a world.
and of course i am not speaking of ALL men. it's just easier to use the term men generally for argument's sake.

Jeanie · August 2007

catefrances wrote:

i don't see men as contributing to the abortion rate per se jeanie.
and you have to know in this patriarchal society we live in any bias will go the way of the being benficial to the man. the fact that laws are needed to be enacted in order that a child receives the benefits it does is testimony to the fact that men are dogs who given the choice probably would rather walk away than ensure their child has an advantage or even a chance at the life ALL children deserve, regardless of the circumstances under which it was bought into this shit hole of a world.
and of course i am not speaking of ALL men. it's just easier to use the term men generally for argument's sake.

Well I guess I do. Lets face it men and women have been having sex for a very long time. We are all well aware of what the outcomes of sex can be.

To my way of thinking if there's an abortion taking place then a man contributed it to. Whether he is against abortion or not, by participating in the sex act in the first place he is contributing to the outcome. He gets a pat on the back for his efforts if the child is born and his contribution is acknowledged. Why then is this not also the case if the pregnancy ends in abortion? That his contribution is acknowledged? It can still only happen if a man is also present regardless the outcome. It's not new information.

And obviously not all of them, but it would be nice to see some stats on just how many women have been left "up the duff" and told to "get rid of it" as he's running out the door. I'm tired of hearing about "murderous" women. They don't get pregnant on their own, otherwise none of us would ever masturbate again!

Ahnimus · August 2007

Jeanie wrote:

How so? Not man bashing, but it seems to me they do walk away and it is ok.

I mean it's not like a man is hounded because his girlfriend had an abortion. I mean when was the last time you heard people getting up in arms in the media about men contributing to the abortion rate? Or chasing a guy around waving placards because the child he helped concieve was aborted? When was the last time that men where even expected to consider a jail term for having contributed to the action of an abortion? Guys that get a girl pregnant don't have to undergo invasive surgery to ensure their freedom. They don't have to undergo psychological interviews to assertain if they are "allowed" to abort. They aren't vilified.

That's not to say that I think they should be. I'm just not understanding why you think they don't get to walk away and it's ok. Or that women do.

This is why I wouldn't date you Jeanie.

Seriously, my GF and I talked about this over lunch and pretty much came to an agreement within 5 minutes.

All of those things you mentioned pertain to if the woman had an abortion. But what if she didn't? What would be the fate of the man then? Society constantly hounds "dead-beat dads" and does in-fact sentence them to prison.

I'm referring to this double-standard. Yes, it's ok for you to choose abortion or not, but it's not ok for that decision to dictate the fate of the man you had sex with.

Ahnimus · August 2007

It's like you said:

The men impregnate a woman and then jet, and so the women want to have abortions because they can't raise the child on their own. However, then it sounds like you want to not only have that option, but choose to raise the child on your own and stick the guy for support payments, then why isn't abortion illegal? It's like you want your cake and eat it too.

Nature has given women a bum rap, and instead of coming to a realistic solution for our current cultural flaws, you want to shift as much of the burden you can over to men, even unjustifiably.

Jeanie · August 2007

Ahnimus wrote:

This is why I wouldn't date you Jeanie.

Seriously, my GF and I talked about this over lunch and pretty much came to an agreement within 5 minutes.

All of those things you mentioned pertain to if the woman had an abortion. But what if she didn't? What would be the fate of the man then? Society constantly hounds "dead-beat dads" and does in-fact sentence them to prison.

I'm referring to this double-standard. Yes, it's ok for you to choose abortion or not, but it's not ok for that decision to dictate the fate of the man you had sex with.

Oh I think I'll survive the disappointment Ryan!

Again, I'll say that a man's right to choose is at the point of and/or before sexual contact.
If he doesn't want to be "hounded" for child support or have to stand by as his child is aborted then the thing to do would be to do what you've done with your girlfriend and have the conversation BEFORE a pregnancy occurs. And then take adequate precautions. Men do have choices, as do Women. They can choose to protect themselves. They can choose to make their views known in advance. They can choose not to have sex with a woman if they think she wouldn't honor their views in the advent of a pregnancy. I don't think it's a double standard as the law has had to find the fairest policy given the circumstances as they apply. And I think they've done that. You don't wanna play child support or abortion? Then wear a bloody condom or don't have sex! I don't think sending dead beat dad's to prison is the answer, but I'd love to know how those same men would feel if their own father was so abhorent at their arrival that they were prepared to go to prison instead of taking responsibility for their actions.

Ahnimus · August 2007

Jeanie wrote:

Oh I think I'll survive the disappointment Ryan!

Again, I'll say that a man's right to choose is at the point of and/or before sexual contact.
If he doesn't want to be "hounded" for child support or have to stand by as his child is aborted then the thing to do would be to do what you've done with your girlfriend and have the conversation BEFORE a pregnancy occurs. And then take adequate precautions. Men do have choices, as do Women. They can choose to protect themselves. They can choose to make their views known in advance. They can choose not to have sex with a woman if they think she wouldn't honor their views in the advent of a pregnancy. I don't think it's a double standard as the law has had to find the fairest policy given the circumstances as they apply. And I think they've done that. You don't wanna play child support or abortion? Then wear a bloody condom or don't have sex! I don't think sending dead beat dad's to prison is the answer, but I'd love to know how those same men would feel if their own father was so abhorent at their arrival that they were prepared to go to prison instead of taking responsibility for their actions.

Just apply this same logic to women and you have a reason to make abortion illegal. "You don't want to suffer the consequences... don't have sex."

That's why I'm saying the position of pro-choice pro-support is hypocritical.

catefrances · August 2007

Jeanie wrote:

They don't get pregnant on their own, otherwise none of us would ever masturbate again!

if that were the case, i'd be prepared take that chance.

How much jail time for women who've had abortions?

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