'I' am not consciousness

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  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    farfromglorified wrote:
    Why not?

    It's just a goat, it doesn't mean anything to me. Unless it's moses.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    Ahnimus wrote:
    It's just a goat, it doesn't mean anything to me. Unless it's moses.

    I don't understand. Are you suggesting that you applied reason to my response and determined, despite the fact that you were completely aware of that goat, that my response was insufficient, given your question?

    I think, then, that you just answered your own question. With a little help from a goat, of course.
  • angelica
    angelica Posts: 6,038
    Ahnimus wrote:
    But, 'I' am not my consciousness. 'I' am what 'I' am conscious of. 'I' am in no way my awareness of what 'I' am, but rather 'I' am what 'I' am aware of.
    I'm going to have to agree here. Because technically, the "I" of our individuality is what is called our ego, which is the tip of the iceberg of the Self. According to psychology, our ego is the part of us that interfaces with reality.

    Ahnimus wrote:
    Imagine this. In order for me to know what I think, or to know how I act, I must be self-aware. This is what we call consciousness.
    Here is where the twist comes in. There are two levels of self in psychology:
    1: the self is the ego, or the "I"; the individual
    2: the Self is the entire being of who we including the vast uncharted territory of us that is unconscious.

    The majority of the population is self-aware. A 2 percent minority is supposedly Self-aware, knowing themselves beyond their individuality.

    The Self is always aware, even when the "I" is not aware of the Self.
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    Ahnimus wrote:
    The processes of deliberation are sub-conscious.

    Hehe...then how would Collin be aware of it?
  • baraka
    baraka Posts: 1,268
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Consciousness is simply awareness.

    Simply awareness? But you said this in your initial post:
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Imagine this. In order for me to know what I think, or to know how I act, I must be self-aware. This is what we call consciousness.

    Awareness and self-awareness are not exactly the same thing.
    The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
    but the illusion of knowledge.
    ~Daniel Boorstin

    Only a life lived for others is worth living.
    ~Albert Einstein
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    baraka wrote:
    Simply awareness? But you said this in your initial post:

    Awareness and self-awareness are not exactly the same thing.

    They are both awareness. Whether I am aware of the clouds in the sky or the thorn in my side. It's still awareness. If I am aware of my decisions, self-awareness, it's still awareness, but it just happens to be my awareness of my decisions.

    If I were not self-aware, then how could I function as a human being? I am neccissarily self-aware, but I am not my self-awareness.

    Dictionary.com
    the state of being conscious; awareness of one's own existence, sensations, thoughts, surroundings, etc.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • angelica
    angelica Posts: 6,038
    Ahnimus wrote:
    They are both awareness. Whether I am aware of the clouds in the sky or the thorn in my side. It's still awareness. If I am aware of my decisions, self-awareness, it's still awareness, but it just happens to be my awareness of my decisions.

    If I were not self-aware, then how could I function as a human being? I am neccissarily self-aware, but I am not my self-awareness.

    Dictionary.com
    the state of being conscious; awareness of one's own existence, sensations, thoughts, surroundings, etc.
    I'd like clarification. Do you acknowledge that a goat is conscious?
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    farfromglorified wrote:
    Hehe...then how would Collin be aware of it?

    Collin is aware of certain thoughts that he needs to be aware of. He needs to be aware that he has made a deliberation. It doesn't mean that he needs to be aware of all the processes of deliberation.

    For example, your visual sense is not all it appears to be. You are aware of a complete image in-front of you, but in-fact that image is not a complete image of what is in-front of you, it is only what your brain determined was in-front of you. Everyone has only 3 photoreceptors for red, green and blue, although some are color-blind, they lack a photoreceptor for red. All these photoreceptors do is interpret light of different wave lengths and they don't do a very good job of it. Additionally you have a blind spot in your retina that gets filled-in by higher-level brain processes.

    Your awareness of what you see is not exactly what your retina sees and is not exactly what exists in reality. Thankfully, it's pretty damn close. But we are not aware of this blind-spot, nor are we aware that the image gets flipped around and items are seperated from 'ground' sub-consciously, we only need to be aware of the ultimate results. Being aware of these results allows other parts of our brain to make interpretations and decisions based on what our visual system makes us aware of.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    angelica wrote:
    I'd like clarification. Do you acknowledge that a goat is conscious?
    Yes
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • angelica
    angelica Posts: 6,038
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Yes
    Thank-you.
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    angelica wrote:
    Thank-you.

    Any animal would have to be conscious of pain in order to sense pain and react to it.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Collin is aware of certain thoughts that he needs to be aware of. He needs to be aware that he has made a deliberation. It doesn't mean that he needs to be aware of all the processes of deliberation.

    I never said he had to be "aware of all processes of deliberation". Collin is certainly not aware of neurons firing in his brain, his heart beating, or his hormones, all of which are necessary for deliberation.

    But if Collin was not aware of the conceptual contents of his deliberation, and if he has no free control over those concepts, he cannot be said to "agree", since that term implies a free application of reason to a contention. Furthermore, the same can be said about your deliberation over my goat. If you had no control over that deliberation, you have no right to suggest that my goat was a false response to your question anymore than you have a right to suggest that god is an incorrect idea in the head of a Catholic, the tooth fairy an incorrect idea in the head of a child, or the moon a correct idea in the head of a scientist. Each would simply be no different than the blood flowing through their veins, or the grass growing under their feet.

    Destroy the free application of the mind, and you destroy everything that your silly question at the start of this thread stands upon, as well as every silly contention you've made here on this board.
  • baraka
    baraka Posts: 1,268
    Ahnimus wrote:
    They are both awareness. Whether I am aware of the clouds in the sky or the thorn in my side. It's still awareness. If I am aware of my decisions, self-awareness, it's still awareness, but it just happens to be my awareness of my decisions.

    If I were not self-aware, then how could I function as a human being? I am neccissarily self-aware, but I am not my self-awareness.

    Dictionary.com
    the state of being conscious; awareness of one's own existence, sensations, thoughts, surroundings, etc.

    If something is aware of its surroundings but is not aware of itself as a distinct being, doesn't it have consciousness but not self-awareness?
    The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
    but the illusion of knowledge.
    ~Daniel Boorstin

    Only a life lived for others is worth living.
    ~Albert Einstein
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    farfromglorified wrote:
    I never said he had to be "aware of all processes of deliberation". Collin is certainly not aware of neurons firing in his brain, his heart beating, or his hormones, all of which are necessary for deliberation.

    But if Collin was not aware of the conceptual contents of his deliberation, and if he has no free control over those concepts, he cannot be said to "agree", since that term implies a free application of reason to a contention. Furthermore, the same can be said about your deliberation over my goat. If you had no control over that deliberation, you have no right to suggest that my goat was a false response to your question anymore than you have a right to suggest that god is an incorrect idea in the head of a Catholic, the tooth fairy an incorrect idea in the head of a child, or the moon a correct idea in the head of a scientist. Each would simply be no different than the blood flowing through their veins, or the grass growing under their feet.

    I'm not following you FFG. Can you please try to elaborate?
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    baraka wrote:
    If something is aware of its surroundings but is not aware of itself as a distinct being, doesn't it have consciousness but not self-awareness?

    Sure, but I don't know what that would be. :p

    Do you have an example?
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    Ahnimus wrote:
    I'm not following you FFG. Can you please try to elaborate?

    Ok. Let me try another route at this. Imagine you're in fifth grade again. And you're given a pop quiz by your teacher. This quiz contains the following question:

    Q: The fifth planet from the sun is:
    a: Zebra
    b: Nacho
    c: Mitt Romney
    d: Huggy Bear

    You must answer using one of the above 4 options. What answer do you choose?
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    farfromglorified wrote:
    Ok. Let me try another route at this. Imagine you're in fifth grade again. And you're given a pop quiz by your teacher. This quiz contains the following question:

    Q: The fifth planet from the sun is:
    a: Zebra
    b: Nacho
    c: Mitt Romney
    d: Huggy Bear

    You must answer using one of the above 4 options. What answer do you choose?

    If I didn't know then I would take a guess and that guess would likely reflect something that I am familiar with. However, if I did know that none of those are planets, then I would say there is no correct answer. So my decision depends on knowledge and emotional anchoring.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    Ahnimus wrote:
    If I didn't know then I would take a guess and that guess would likely reflect something that I am familiar with. However, if I did know that none of those are planets, then I would say there is no correct answer. So my decision depends on knowledge and emotional anchoring.

    Excellent. Now, let me pull something out of your post above:

    "I did know that none of those are planets"

    How do you know this?
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    farfromglorified wrote:
    Ok. Let me try another route at this. Imagine you're in fifth grade again. And you're given a pop quiz by your teacher. This quiz contains the following question:

    Q: The fifth planet from the sun is:
    a: Zebra
    b: Nacho
    c: Mitt Romney
    d: Huggy Bear

    You must answer using one of the above 4 options. What answer do you choose?


    and knowing my fifth grade self, i would have asked where jupiter was? why isnt it in this list of possible answers?
    if she said i had to provide an answer, i would have refused.
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • Bu2
    Bu2 Posts: 1,693
    "None of the above, that I know of, yet"

    and moved on to the next question.

    *EDIT*

    And then I would've asked Cate why she thinks the teacher is female.
    Feels Good Inc.

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