'I' am not consciousness

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  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    But was your raised hand completely determined by prior
    events or was it freely willed?
    "You mean, do the laws of physics leave room for
    a will that is free in the metaphysical sense?
    Everybody has opinions on this age-old problem,
    but there are no generally accepted answers. I do
    know of many instances of a dissociation between
    an individual’s action and her intentions. You can
    observe these slip-ups in your own life. When
    “you want” to climb above a ledge, for example,
    but your body doesn’t follow because it’s too
    scared. Or, when running in the mountains and
    your will slackens but your legs just keep on
    going. There are many extreme forms of dissociations
    between action and the experience of willing
    an action, including hypnosis, table turning,
    automatic writing, facilitated communications,
    spirit possession, deindividuation in crowds, and
    clinical dissociative identity disorders. But
    whether raising my hand was truly free, as free as
    Siegfried’s destruction of the world order of the gods
    in Wagner’s Der Ring des Nibelungen, I doubt it."

    What about religion? Most people on the planet believe
    in some sort of immortal soul that lives on after the body
    has died. What do you have to say to them?
    "Well, many of these beliefs can’t be reconciled
    with our current scientific world view. What is
    clear is that every conscious act or intention has
    some physical correlate. With the end of life,
    consciousness ceases, for without brain, there is no
    mind. Still, these irrevocable facts do not exclude
    some beliefs about the soul, resurrection, and God."
    -Christof Koch (The Quest for Consciousness, 2004)
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    Ahnimus wrote:
    But was your raised hand completely determined by prior
    events or was it freely willed?
    "You mean, do the laws of physics leave room for
    a will that is free in the metaphysical sense?
    Everybody has opinions on this age-old problem,
    but there are no generally accepted answers. I do
    know of many instances of a dissociation between
    an individual’s action and her intentions. You can
    observe these slip-ups in your own life. When
    “you want” to climb above a ledge, for example,
    but your body doesn’t follow because it’s too
    scared. Or, when running in the mountains and
    your will slackens but your legs just keep on
    going. There are many extreme forms of dissociations
    between action and the experience of willing
    an action, including hypnosis, table turning,
    automatic writing, facilitated communications,
    spirit possession, deindividuation in crowds, and
    clinical dissociative identity disorders. But
    whether raising my hand was truly free, as free as
    Siegfried’s destruction of the world order of the gods
    in Wagner’s Der Ring des Nibelungen, I doubt it."

    What about religion? Most people on the planet believe
    in some sort of immortal soul that lives on after the body
    has died. What do you have to say to them?
    "Well, many of these beliefs can’t be reconciled
    with our current scientific world view. What is
    clear is that every conscious act or intention has
    some physical correlate. With the end of life,
    consciousness ceases, for without brain, there is no
    mind. Still, these irrevocable facts do not exclude
    some beliefs about the soul, resurrection, and God."
    -Christof Koch (The Quest for Consciousness, 2004)

    Jesus (pardon the missive) dude, you're bored.
    all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
    except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    gue_barium wrote:
    Jesus (pardon the missive) dude, you're bored.

    I don't have this book... yet.
    I copied it from Koch's website, he has some sample chapters on there.

    http://www.questforconsciousness.com/Koch_Feature.pdf
    http://www.questforconsciousness.com/chapt.html
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    Ahnimus wrote:
    I don't have this book... yet.
    I copied it from Koch's website, he has some sample chapters on there.

    http://www.questforconsciousness.com/Koch_Feature.pdf
    http://www.questforconsciousness.com/chapt.html

    You're more intelligent than this. I know. So am I.

    We get bored sometimes. We get duldrumistic expectations. You're showing.

    And I think I just invented another word.

    The last one was "synchronicit". Without the 'y'.
    all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
    except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    gue_barium wrote:
    You're more intelligent than this. I know. So am I.

    We get bored sometimes. We get duldrumistic expectations. You're showing.

    And I think I just invented another word.

    The last one was "synchronicit". Without the 'y'.

    Well, I am reading off and on these ebooks on NLP. But they used OCR (Optical Character Recognition) to computerize the original books and it's got a lot of characters wrong, makes it hard to read and easy to be distracted.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Well, I am reading off and on these ebooks on NLP. But they used OCR (Optical Character Recognition) to computerize the original books and it's got a lot of characters wrong, makes it hard to read and easy to be distracted.

    I've never tried "control-alt-delete" in reply mode.

    I wonder what would happen?

    Is there something wrong with your eyes?
    all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
    except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    This section accurately describes my view of 'beliefs'

    "Beliefs are the rules we live by. They are our best guesses at reality and form our mental
    models - the principles of how the world seems to work, based on our experience,
    Beliefs are not facts, although we often mistake them for facts. We have beliefs about
    other people, about ourselves and about our relationships, about what is possible and
    about what we are capable of. We have a personal investment in our beliefs, i told you
    so'is a satisfying phrase because it means our beliefs were proved right. It gives us confidence
    in our ideas.
    Some things are not influenced by our belief in them - the law of gravity, for
    example, will not change whether we believe in it or not. Sometimes we treat other
    beliefe - about our relationships, abilities and possibilities - as if they were as fixed
    and as immutable as gravity, and they are not. Beliefs actively shape our social
    world."

    Neuro-Linguistic Programming Workbook by Joseph O'Connor
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    Ahnimus wrote:
    This section accurately describes my view of 'beliefs'

    "Beliefs are the rules we live by. They are our best guesses at reality and form our mental
    models - the principles of how the world seems to work, based on our experience,
    Beliefs are not facts, although we often mistake them for facts. We have beliefs about
    other people, about ourselves and about our relationships, about what is possible and
    about what we are capable of. We have a personal investment in our beliefs, i told you
    so'is a satisfying phrase because it means our beliefs were proved right. It gives us confidence
    in our ideas.
    Some things are not influenced by our belief in them - the law of gravity, for
    example, will not change whether we believe in it or not. Sometimes we treat other
    beliefe - about our relationships, abilities and possibilities - as if they were as fixed
    and as immutable as gravity, and they are not. Beliefs actively shape our social
    world."

    Neuro-Linguistic Programming Workbook by Joseph O'Connor

    I think Frogs have something to do with everything.
    all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
    except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    Ahnimus wrote:
    This section accurately describes my view of 'beliefs'

    "Beliefs are the rules we live by. They are our best guesses at reality and form our mental
    models - the principles of how the world seems to work, based on our experience,
    Beliefs are not facts, although we often mistake them for facts. We have beliefs about
    other people, about ourselves and about our relationships, about what is possible and
    about what we are capable of. We have a personal investment in our beliefs, i told you
    so'is a satisfying phrase because it means our beliefs were proved right. It gives us confidence
    in our ideas.
    Some things are not influenced by our belief in them - the law of gravity, for
    example, will not change whether we believe in it or not. Sometimes we treat other
    beliefe - about our relationships, abilities and possibilities - as if they were as fixed
    and as immutable as gravity, and they are not. Beliefs actively shape our social
    world."

    Neuro-Linguistic Programming Workbook by Joseph O'Connor


    Okay man, true: confidence plays a larger part in the human existence than many give it credit for.
    all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
    except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    gue_barium wrote:
    Okay man, true: confidence plays a larger part in the human existence than many give it credit for.

    I just find NLP interesting right now because it's aligned with my view of reality. There are 13 'presuppositions' in this book that I already believe. So it's an interesting self-help book for someone like me.

    For example:

    People make the best choice they can at the time.
    A person always makes the best choice theycan.given their map of the world.The
    choice may be self-defeating, bizarre or evil, but for them. It seems the best way forward.
    Give them a better choice and they will take it. Even better.glve them a superior map
    with more choices on It.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • Jeanie
    Jeanie Posts: 9,446
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Well, I am reading off and on these ebooks on NLP. But they used OCR (Optical Character Recognition) to computerize the original books and it's got a lot of characters wrong, makes it hard to read and easy to be distracted.

    I did a short course on NLP a few years ago. It was very insightful.
    I can't remember all the things that we covered but I do remember one quote very clearly. It's stuck with me.
    "There is no meaning other than that which we place upon it"
    NOPE!!!

    *~You're IT Bert!~*

    Hold on to the thread
    The currents will shift
  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    Ahnimus wrote:
    I just find NLP interesting right now because it's aligned with my view of reality. There are 13 'presuppositions' in this book that I already believe. So it's an interesting self-help book for someone like me.

    For example:

    People make the best choice they can at the time.
    A person always makes the best choice theycan.given their map of the world.The
    choice may be self-defeating, bizarre or evil, but for them. It seems the best way forward.
    Give them a better choice and they will take it. Even better.glve them a superior map
    with more choices on It.


    Whatever works for you. Cool.

    If you get a chance to jump out of an airplane, don't hesitate.
    all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
    except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
  • angelica
    angelica Posts: 6,038
    Ahnimus wrote:
    I just find NLP interesting right now because it's aligned with my view of reality. There are 13 'presuppositions' in this book that I already believe. So it's an interesting self-help book for someone like me.

    For example:

    People make the best choice they can at the time.
    A person always makes the best choice theycan.given their map of the world.The
    choice may be self-defeating, bizarre or evil, but for them. It seems the best way forward.
    Give them a better choice and they will take it. Even better.glve them a superior map
    with more choices on It.
    Ahnimus, I'm thrilled to say I completely and totally agree with you. Neurolinguistic programming has played a big part in my healing. With it you can retroactively change your perception of experiences from the past. When I saw the movie "the Butterfly Effect", I was dazzled, because that was what my healing was like--I could mentally go to the past, and change my experience in my mind, and it would change my experience in the now. Amazing. Not to mention, actual communication takes place when we meet people at their map of the world. I am totally at peace with the bizarreness of the world due to that what you've stated here is true about people doing the best they do with what they've got. And when they are offered a new concept or paradigm that they resonate with, they will absorb it. It's evolution. I changed and healed with new and empowering maps and I constantly redesign my own maps of the world in order to create my life to serve me. I'm glad you are learning this stuff. It's very real in how people experience it on the road to empowerment. Peace.
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    Jeanie wrote:
    I did a short course on NLP a few years ago. It was very insightful.
    I can't remember all the things that we covered but I do remember one quote very clearly. It's stuck with me.
    "There is no meaning other than that which we place upon it"

    Cool.

    This is very similar in a lot of ways to Stephen Covey's The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People a great self-help book.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • chadwick
    chadwick up my ass Posts: 21,157
    farfromglorified wrote:
    Are you a tree? Are you a boat? Are you a message board?

    oh yes, I am a tree.
    for poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7

    "Hear me, my chiefs!
    I am tired; my heart is
    sick and sad. From where
    the sun stands I will fight
    no more forever."
    Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    angelica wrote:
    Ahnimus, I'm thrilled to say I completely and totally agree with you. Neurolinguistic programming has played a big part in my healing. With it you can retroactively change your perception of experiences from the past. When I saw the movie "the Butterfly Effect", I was dazzled, because that was what my healing was like--I could mentally go to the past, and change my experience in my mind, and it would change my experience in the now. Amazing. Not to mention, actual communication takes place when we meet people at their map of the world. I am totally at peace with the bizarreness of the world due to that what you've stated here is true about people doing the best they do with what they've got. And when they are offered a new concept or paradigm that they resonate with, they will absorb it. It's evolution. I changed and healed with new and empowering maps and I constantly redesign my own maps of the world in order to create my life to serve me. I'm glad you are learning this stuff. It's very real in how people experience it on the road to empowerment. Peace.

    You may find it interesting that I tried hypnosis last night with a particular video I found on metacafe.com. It didn't work though, I was tired when I started doing it and I just ended up going to bed. It's not the first time I've tried hypnosis either, it's never worked, yet.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • angelica
    angelica Posts: 6,038
    Ahnimus wrote:
    You may find it interesting that I tried hypnosis last night with a particular video I found on metacafe.com. It didn't work though, I was tired when I started doing it and I just ended up going to bed. It's not the first time I've tried hypnosis either, it's never worked, yet.
    Hey, maybe you'll let me hypnotize you. ;) lol

    muahahahhahaha!
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • chadwick
    chadwick up my ass Posts: 21,157
    Ahnimus wrote:
    You may find it interesting that I tried hypnosis last night with a particular video I found on metacafe.com. It didn't work though, I was tired when I started doing it and I just ended up going to bed. It's not the first time I've tried hypnosis either, it's never worked, yet.

    hypnosis online @ a .com service?
    dude, that's not gonna work, i'm sure of that.
    i'm even shocked a man of your intelligence sunk to such a level
    at a .com hypnosis site, and thinking it may work.
    dude, stop it.
    haha.
    for poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7

    "Hear me, my chiefs!
    I am tired; my heart is
    sick and sad. From where
    the sun stands I will fight
    no more forever."
    Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
  • angelica
    angelica Posts: 6,038
    When I was really messed up, and gripped by horrific OCD, I'd read about all kinds of techniques. One I would do was visualizing myself from the future, being all peaceful, healed and healthy, coming to me and basking me in "her" light. Other than comforting me mildly, it seemed to do little. It's cool though that I eventually overcome OCD, and after that had to also work with healing my eating disorders. I had to heal old unresolved emotions that were paralyzing me from being mySelf. So, I was healed of OCD, and becoming a peaceful person, and I'd go to myself in the past and enshroud her in "light" and healing and peace. And it was a very profound inner experience that I was bringing that healing full circle and the self from the past and the one from the now were able to merge.
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • angelica
    angelica Posts: 6,038
    chadwick wrote:
    hypnosis online @ a .com service?
    dude, that's not gonna work, i'm sure of that.
    i'm even shocked a man of your intelligence sunk to such a level
    at a .com hypnosis site, and thinking it may work.
    dude, stop it.
    haha.
    I disagree, chadwick, my friend. :) Hypnosis is so natural and accessible for anyone to do with simple instructions. Some people are less suggestible than others, but it's amazing what can be done.
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!

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