'I' am not consciousness

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  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    sicnevol wrote:
    so what is that something else?

    What we can observe through critical analysis and empirics. This is easier than it seems. If I toss you an apple then we both know that the apple exists. It's corraborated by our senses and the shared experience of the apple. But we cannot easily convince everyone that the apple exists unless they can also see and feel the apple. If I show you an apple, you can't deny it's existence either. If you sense it, you can only verbally deny it.

    If I sit back and pray or meditate or sleep I can get some weird shit happening in my brain that causes some funky experiences, but no one else can duplicate my experience like the apple. They can do the same behavior but their experiences will be describably different.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    angelica wrote:
    When you, or I and say catefrances are sitting here having a debate, what is real? Is the theory of the brain more real than us sitting here having experiences as humans?

    Not the theory, but what the theory describes
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • angelica
    angelica Posts: 6,038
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Not the theory, but what the theory describes
    What the theory describes is more real than us sitting here having experiences?
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • RolandTD20Kdrummer
    RolandTD20Kdrummer Posts: 13,066
    catefrances wrote:
    in all honesty ryan, i dont know what happens to my consciousness when i sleep.

    It probably runs around naked in the dark....
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    Ahnimus wrote:
    I'm interested to know why a person can't just accept reality and work with it. It's not that hard.

    accept reality? who's reality ryan? society's reality is not my reality.
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • lucylespian
    lucylespian Posts: 2,403
    angelica wrote:
    When you, or I and say catefrances are sitting here having a debate, what is real? Is the theory of the brain more real than us sitting here having experiences as humans?

    Hey angelica, that's my line, you stole it!!

    how are you anyway girl, haven;t seen you much lately ??
    Music is not a competetion.
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:
    It probably runs around naked in the dark....

    oh no roland, that activity i do wide awake. :D:p
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • angelica
    angelica Posts: 6,038
    lucylespian wrote:
    Hey angelica, that's my line, you stole it!!

    how are you anyway girl, haven;t seen you much lately ??
    Hey lucy! It's great to see you! I've been doing less posting lately, aside from today. How are you? :)
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    catefrances wrote:
    accept reality? who's reality ryan? society's reality is not my reality.

    Hell no, society doesn't know it's ass from a hole in the ground. People don't trust those who know and if they do they don't properly scrutinize them. That's where you will find reality, seek out those who know, those who've dedicated their lives to discovering truth in a particular area, put all their ideas together and hash it out in your own mind. That is the closest to the truth that we can become. If you really sit down and subject yourself to what others know, it can be quite informative.

    Or, like Angelica, you can claim that the frontal insular cortex in your brain holds the ultimate truth to everything.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • RolandTD20Kdrummer
    RolandTD20Kdrummer Posts: 13,066
    catefrances wrote:
    oh no roland, that activity i do wide awake. :D:p

    lol...remind me to join you sometime in my dreams... :D
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • lucylespian
    lucylespian Posts: 2,403
    angelica wrote:
    Hey lucy! It's great to see you! I've been doing less posting lately, aside from today. How are you? :)

    Yeah, up and down, up today. I'm always stuck in front of a computer at work, so forum gossip is a continual bad habit.
    Splitting headaches recently, today is about teh first day in ages I don't have one.

    Anyway, work is done, I'm off home now.

    Cheers all, and a safe weekend, catch you all tuesday, holiday on Monday here in sunny Queensland !!
    Music is not a competetion.
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Hell no, society doesn't know it's ass from a hole in the ground. People don't trust those who know and if they do they don't properly scrutinize them. That's where you will find reality, seek out those who know, those who've dedicated their lives to discovering truth in a particular area, put all their ideas together and hash it out in your own mind. That is the closest to the truth that we can become. If you really sit down and subject yourself to what others know, it can be quite informative.

    Or, like Angelica, you can claim that the frontal insular cortex in your brain holds the ultimate truth to everything.

    shit ryan, you make out as if we don't already do that. i will decide my own truth. i take what i need and what i deem relevant to me and i form my own opinion, and i will continue to do so until the day i die.
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • angelica
    angelica Posts: 6,038
    lucylespian wrote:
    Yeah, up and down, up today. I'm always stuck in front of a computer at work, so forum gossip is a continual bad habit.
    Splitting headaches recently, today is about teh first day in ages I don't have one.

    Anyway, work is done, I'm off home now.

    Cheers all, and a safe weekend, catch you all tuesday, holiday on Monday here in sunny Queensland !!
    Be well and Enjoy. Peace. :)
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • angelica
    angelica Posts: 6,038
    Ahnimus wrote:

    Or, like Angelica, you can claim that the frontal insular cortex in your brain holds the ultimate truth to everything.
    Reality and the whole of existence holds the ultimate truth, and not some mere theory or a process of the brain.
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • Kann
    Kann Posts: 1,146
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Imagine this. In order for me to know what I think, or to know how I act, I must be self-aware. This is what we call consciousness.

    But, 'I' am not my consciousness. 'I' am what 'I' am conscious of. 'I' am in no way my awareness of what 'I' am, but rather 'I' am what 'I' am aware of.

    I disagree. If I do the Descartes exercise, I end up being a doubt. Not having a doubt, but being one, so I'm actually my awareness of a doubt.
    And why do you think you have a monopoly on truth?
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    Kann wrote:
    I disagree. If I do the Descartes exercise, I end up being a doubt. Not having a doubt, but being one, so I'm actually my awareness of a doubt.
    And why do you think you have a monopoly on truth?

    Descartes us old-school man. This is the guy that thought up the cartesian theatre and that is proven to be wrong. I don't know what exercise you are talking about. Nobody cares about Descartes anymore.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • sicnevol
    sicnevol Posts: 180
    catefrances wrote:
    accept reality? who's reality ryan? society's reality is not my reality.
    everytime you interact with society, it is your reality. Everytime you watch tv or go see a move, thats sociteys reality. the only way you would ever cut yourself off from "society" is to hole up in a little box. You have to accept the reality of the masses for this to work. Everytime you post here, or talk to another person, you are in societys reality,
    That's two things we've got, Tape and Time.
  • sicnevol
    sicnevol Posts: 180
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Descartes us old-school man. This is the guy that thought up the cartesian theatre and that is proven to be wrong. I don't know what exercise you are talking about. Nobody cares about Descartes anymore.
    that exercise is to reject anything that can be doubted as a non-truth.

    frrom wikipidea

    In his Discourse on the Method he attempts to arrive at a fundamental set of principles that one can know as true without any doubt. To achieve this, he employs a method called methodological skepticism: he rejects any idea that can be doubted in order to acquire a firm foundation for genuine knowledge.


    Initially, Descartes arrives at only a single principle: thought exists. Thought cannot be separated from me, therefore, I exist (Discourse on the Method and Principles of Philosophy). Most famously, this is known as cogito ergo sum ("I think, therefore I am").

    Therefore, Descartes concludes that he can be certain that he exists. But in what form? He perceives his body through the use of the senses; however, these have previously been proven unreliable. So Descartes concludes that the only indubitable knowledge is that he is a thinking thing. Thinking is his essence as it is the only thing about him that cannot be doubted. Descartes defines "thought" (cogitatio) as "what happens in me such that I am immediately conscious of it, insofar as I am conscious of it". Thinking is thus every activity of a person of which he is immediately conscious.

    To further demonstrate the limitations of the senses, Descartes proceeds with what is known as the Wax Argument. He considers a piece of wax: his senses inform him that it has certain characteristics, such as shape, texture, size, color, smell, and so forth. When he brings the wax towards a flame, these characteristics change completely. However, it seems that it is still the same thing: it is still a piece of wax, even though the data of the senses inform him that all of its characteristics are different. Therefore, in order to properly grasp the nature of the wax, he cannot use the senses: he must use his mind. Descartes concludes:

    "Thus what I thought I had seen with my eyes, I actually grasped solely with the faculty of judgment, which is in my mind."




    it's pretty much crap.
    That's two things we've got, Tape and Time.
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    sicnevol wrote:
    that exercise is to reject anything that can be doubted as a non-truth.

    frrom wikipidea

    In his Discourse on the Method he attempts to arrive at a fundamental set of principles that one can know as true without any doubt. To achieve this, he employs a method called methodological skepticism: he rejects any idea that can be doubted in order to acquire a firm foundation for genuine knowledge.


    Initially, Descartes arrives at only a single principle: thought exists. Thought cannot be separated from me, therefore, I exist (Discourse on the Method and Principles of Philosophy). Most famously, this is known as cogito ergo sum ("I think, therefore I am").

    Therefore, Descartes concludes that he can be certain that he exists. But in what form? He perceives his body through the use of the senses; however, these have previously been proven unreliable. So Descartes concludes that the only indubitable knowledge is that he is a thinking thing. Thinking is his essence as it is the only thing about him that cannot be doubted. Descartes defines "thought" (cogitatio) as "what happens in me such that I am immediately conscious of it, insofar as I am conscious of it". Thinking is thus every activity of a person of which he is immediately conscious.

    To further demonstrate the limitations of the senses, Descartes proceeds with what is known as the Wax Argument. He considers a piece of wax: his senses inform him that it has certain characteristics, such as shape, texture, size, color, smell, and so forth. When he brings the wax towards a flame, these characteristics change completely. However, it seems that it is still the same thing: it is still a piece of wax, even though the data of the senses inform him that all of its characteristics are different. Therefore, in order to properly grasp the nature of the wax, he cannot use the senses: he must use his mind. Descartes concludes:

    "Thus what I thought I had seen with my eyes, I actually grasped solely with the faculty of judgment, which is in my mind."




    it's pretty much crap.

    You see, he didn't grasp it solely with his mind, because he had sensory input from his senses, and he never doubted that the wax existed, even though he couldn't think as the wax. He also came up with a lot of theories that were highly doubtful and in-fact wrong. So I'm not sure if he was a hypocrite or insane. I think his biggest contribution was confusing the hell out of people. Didn't he also say we can never know what it's like to be bat?
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    sicnevol wrote:
    everytime you interact with society, it is your reality. Everytime you watch tv or go see a move, thats sociteys reality. the only way you would ever cut yourself off from "society" is to hole up in a little box. You have to accept the reality of the masses for this to work. Everytime you post here, or talk to another person, you are in societys reality,

    i disagree. i interact with society because i need to. because there are certain things that make it a necessity. that doesn't mean it is my reality. all it means is i adapt to suit my purpose, i enter, do what needs to be done and then i withdraw.
    and no i do not have to accept the reality of the masses. who says i have to accept what is some mindless collective consciousness?
    and to use the example of the internet as a reality is amusing. if ever there was a place where reality didnt count for anything it's the internet. the anonimity of the medium makes anything possible. you can be anyone you like on here but that doesn't necessarily make it so.
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say

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