Venezuela's Chavez may take over schools

12357

Comments

  • CaterinaA
    CaterinaA Posts: 572
    gue_barium wrote:
    I think you over-simply things to back your anti-chavista indoctornization. I have never seen you state anything to the effect that one thing Chavez is doing might be a good thing.

    Well, I could write a paper about why I oppose him, but I don't have the time to do so from my work, so that's why I rarely post and usually keep it short.

    Have you ever asked me if I think Chavez has done something right? I fully acknowledge why he's on power. I'm fully aware of the crisis that political parties were facing in 1998 and why people chose him. That does not mean I have to like him and agree with his actions. His government has made some improvements in the health department an there's been some poverty reduction and women are getting more respect and participation in public life. Yet, the cost-benefit equation is negative, the outcomes are way too modest and way too expensive.
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    gue_barium wrote:
    He's trying to implement a plan. Our State of Education does it all the time. There's nothing to be alarmed about here. At this point the Bolivarian System is in the first stages, and it is very oriented in Patriotism. I'm sure, in time, it will evolve and mature.

    the Chavez Plan: Enforce his own socialist thinking on all students.

    our dept of education doesnt do
  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    CaterinaA wrote:
    Well, I could write a paper about why I oppose him, but I don't have the time to do so from my work, so that's why I rarely post and usually keep it short.

    Have you ever asked me if I think Chavez has done something right? I fully acknowledge why he's on power. I'm fully aware of the crisis that political parties were facing in 1998 and why people chose him. That does not mean I have to like him and agree with his actions. His government has made some improvements in the health department an there's been some poverty reduction and women are getting more respect and participation in public life. Yet, the cost-benefit equation is negative, the outcomes are way too modest and way too expensive.

    So, your idea would be to keep it a society of haves and have-nots.
    all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
    except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    CaterinaA wrote:
    Great, you'll have a great time in Buenos Aires, it is an amazing city. If there's anything I can help just let me know.

    OK The Boliviarian System of Education is an educational plan they've implemented in some schools, with mediocre results at best. Yet they want to expand it to the whole system. The name Bolivarian, well, they just add it to everything nowadays :D. The proposal, which reverses the educational reform of 1982, is a comprehensive reform with strong emphasis on "bolivarian and anti-imperialist values". Since elementary school they'll be receiving socialist and marxist lessons...which could be fine (although,in my opinion 7 year olds should be learning math, grammar, history and such, you know the stuff you usally learn) if they taught all the scope.

    I can't find a link with the reform proposal in english :(

    that's ok. do they still learn math and science and whatnot?

    cos i have to say, despite jlew's praise of the open-minded and fair educational system, i NEVER learned in elementary or high school that anything but capitalism as good. the lesson from day one was "we are the only and best free country in the world and communist countries are all poor and dirty"
  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    jlew24asu wrote:
    the Chavez Plan: Enforce his own socialist thinking on all students.

    our dept of education doesnt do

    You're weak, Jlew.
    all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
    except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    gue_barium wrote:
    You're weak, Jlew.

    when you run out of something to say, resort to personal insults. well done.
  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    jlew24asu wrote:
    the Chavez Plan: Enforce his own socialist thinking on all students.

    our dept of education doesnt do

    that is bullshit man. if you had any schooling that suggested communism or socialism were valid alternatives, i want to know where. we were indoctrinated with the capitalist american dream and patriotism from day one and you cannot deny that. russia was evil no matter what they did, and any government but ours left people poor and hungry. it went right down to christian prayers in every school and forcing every kid to say the pledge daily.
  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    jlew24asu wrote:
    when you run out of something to say, resort to personal insults. well done.

    I'm not trying to insult you. But I can.

    Let me just suggest a course in critical thinking.

    Really.
    all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
    except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    soulsinging wrote:
    that is bullshit man. if you had any schooling that suggested communism or socialism were valid alternatives, i want to know where.

    I was taught about communism and socialism. you weren't?
    soulsinging wrote:
    we were indoctrinated with the capitalist american dream and patriotism from day one and you cannot deny that.
    and this is a bad thing?
    soulsinging wrote:
    russia was evil no matter what they did, and any government but ours left people poor and hungry.

    nope I was never taught this. cold war was over when I was in school. and never ever was taught your complete and utter bullshit last sentence.




    I was not taught your bullshit last sentence.
  • CaterinaA
    CaterinaA Posts: 572
    gue_barium wrote:
    So, your idea would be to keep it a society of haves and have-nots.

    Wow, you've got it all wrong. Listen, I work at the UN in poverty reduction projects and I used to work for Argentina's Bureau of Economics in an income distribution project. So it's not like I'm not familiar with the subject, trust me I know what I'm talking about

    My point is that you don't need to destroy a democracy and polarize an entire country to reduce poverty and to provide better healthcare and education. Poverty and inequality reduction strategies need functioning institutions in order to have success. And right now Venezuela's institutions are reaching their lowest point in history.
  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    jlew24asu wrote:
    I was taught about communism and socialism. you weren't?

    and this is a bad thing?

    nope I was never taught this. cold war was over when I was in school. and never ever was taught your complete and utter bullshit last sentence.

    I was not taught your bullshit last sentence.

    no, i wasn't. not until high school at best. even then it was mentioned dismissively and in passing.

    you seem to think it is a bad thing when venezuela does it.

    i was taught that.

    where did you go to school?
  • CaterinaA
    CaterinaA Posts: 572
    gue_barium wrote:
    Well, see, now you're suggesting they wouldn't be teaching the basics. That's just preposterous BS.

    ???????????????? Did we have a communication breakdown?

    I was stating that education should be more comprehensive than what Chavez is proposing. The Bolivarian system has shown extremely poor results and yet since it fits their ideological agenda they want to make it mandadoty for all schools. That's my problem! I think public schooling should be significantly improved, otherwise how can one reduce inequalities?

    I said I don't mind if they teach Marxism as long as they teach Capitalism. That's what I was trying to convey, you have to provide more, not fewer options.
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    gue_barium wrote:
    I'm not trying to insult you. But I can.

    Let me just suggest a course in critical thinking.

    Really.

    whenever you'd like to debate something, let me know. otherwise, how about you stop with the personal attacks?
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    soulsinging wrote:
    no, i wasn't. not until high school at best.
    you think 10 year olds need to learn about the complexities of different forms of government?
    soulsinging wrote:
    even then it was mentioned dismissively and in passing.
    I cant help that the school you went to sucked.
    soulsinging wrote:
    you seem to think it is a bad thing when venezuela does it.
    I was taught to understand what communism and socialism are. not forced to follow it. like chavez is doing.
    soulsinging wrote:
    where did you go to school?
    dont worry about it
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    CaterinaA wrote:
    ???????????????? Did we have a communication breakdown?

    I was stating that education should be more comprehensive than what Chavez is proposing. The Bolivarian system has shown extremely poor results and yet since it fits their ideological agenda they want to make it mandadoty for all schools. That's my problem! I think public schooling should be significantly improved, otherwise how can one reduce inequalities?

    I said I don't mind if they teach Marxism as long as they teach Capitalism. That's what I was trying to convey, you have to provide more, not fewer options.

    exactly what I'm trying to prove here. thank you Caterina
  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    jlew24asu wrote:
    you think 10 year olds need to learn about the complexities of different forms of government? I cant help that the school you went to sucked.

    I was taught to understand what communism and socialism are. not forced to follow it. like chavez is doing.


    dont worry about it

    that's the point... why should 10 year old venezuelan kids be taught very early about government complexities. sounds to me like it's just rah rah patriotism like what we have. we celebrate thanksgiving and columbus day and say the pledge and learn that anyone with a dream can pursue it, they celebrate revolutionaries and learn in their society that everyone is equal. doesn't seem outrageous to me.

    my grade school did kinda suck though ;)
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    soulsinging wrote:
    that's the point... why should 10 year old venezuelan kids be taught very early about government complexities.
    they shouldnt. but chavez certainly wants them to.
    soulsinging wrote:
    sounds to me like it's just rah rah patriotism like what we have. we celebrate thanksgiving and columbus day and say the pledge and learn that anyone with a dream can pursue it, they celebrate revolutionaries and learn in their society that everyone is equal. doesn't seem outrageous to me.
    we arent only taught way thing. one way of learning. they are.

    I mght be going out on a limb here but I dont see chavez teaching about capitalism and free choices.
  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    CaterinaA wrote:
    ???????????????? Did we have a communication breakdown?

    I was stating that education should be more comprehensive than what Chavez is proposing. The Bolivarian system has shown extremely poor results and yet since it fits their ideological agenda they want to make it mandadoty for all schools. That's my problem! I think public schooling should be significantly improved, otherwise how can one reduce inequalities?

    I said I don't mind if they teach Marxism as long as they teach Capitalism. That's what I was trying to convey, you have to provide more, not fewer options.

    How many years did it take for Venezuela to become one of the most disparate economic systems in the free world? That upper crust you hold in such high regard, and which you are from has no interest in raising the standard of living and education in that country. If you are so concerned about it, why aren't you there enjoined in the grassroots organizations that are taking place now like never before? Chavez is allowing this sort of organization among the poor that was never given a chance before, screw the Institutions of control you hold in such esteem. They failed Venezuela miserably, and there is no need to bring them back again now.
    all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
    except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    CaterinaA wrote:
    ???????????????? Did we have a communication breakdown?

    I was stating that education should be more comprehensive than what Chavez is proposing. The Bolivarian system has shown extremely poor results and yet since it fits their ideological agenda they want to make it mandadoty for all schools. That's my problem! I think public schooling should be significantly improved, otherwise how can one reduce inequalities?

    I said I don't mind if they teach Marxism as long as they teach Capitalism. That's what I was trying to convey, you have to provide more, not fewer options.

    ...and it's very naive of you to think that this boils down to a socialist vs capitalist point of view.
    all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
    except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
  • CaterinaA
    CaterinaA Posts: 572
    gue_barium wrote:
    How many years did it take for Venezuela to become one of the most disparate economic systems in the free world? That upper crust you hold in such high regard, and which you are from has no interest in raising the standard of living and education in that country. If you are so concerned about it, why aren't you there enjoined in the grassroots organizations that are taking place now like never before? Chavez is allowing this sort of orginization among the poor that was never given a chance before, screw the Institutions of control you hold in such esteem. They failed Venezuela miserably, and there is no need to bring them back again now.

    ¿What do you mean by disparate economy? What upper crost I hold in such high regard? I've always been very critical about many of the members of the opposition. I think you've got me totally wrong. I'm not rich and I've never been. I come from a very hard working familiy and I'd like to think I'm following my parent's example in my field (poverty reduction and democratic governance). Nevertheless, I'm fully aware that I was very lucky 'cause I was born in a middle class family, I don't take it for granted at all.

    You are just reading what you want to in my posts. I'm all for an improvement of Venezuela's public education. That's where Chavez' energy, monetary resources and proposals should focus. I'm advocating for the same thing. That's why I find useless to impose a very flawed system to the private schools, that's will lower the standards intsead of raising them. I want public schools in Venezuela and everywhere, for that matter, to improve.

    Why am I not currently living in Venezuela? Well, for plenty of reasons that are none of your business. About my work, I fully believe in the organization I work for: the UN.

    I'm gonna go out on a limp and state that prior to Chavez you knew nothing about Venezuela, yet you defend it so vehemently. Why don't you go and work at one of the Misiones? How dare you critize me for not working in a grassroot organization in Venezuela? I've always been respectful.

Categories