what's the fucking deal with Israel?

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  • sweetpotato
    sweetpotato Posts: 1,278
    Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:
    What the fuck is that supposed to mean?

    is that an answer?
    "Ladies and gentlemen, the President of the United States, Barack Obama."

    "Obama's main opponent in this election on November 4th (was) not John McCain, it (was) ignorance."~Michael Moore

    "i'm feeling kinda righteous right now. with my badass motherfuckin' ukulele!"
    ~ed, 8/7
  • Rhinocerous Surprise
    Rhinocerous Surprise Posts: 4,423
    sweetpotato wrote:
    is that an answer?

    What, do you think Ireland is still a pseudonym for "Catholic Church"? Pretty small-minded attitude, guy. Of course, I'm just a potato farmer who keeps a leprechaun as a pet, so what would I know?

    I refer you to this post: http://forums.pearljam.com/showpost.php?p=5427667&postcount=247
    Smokey Robinson constantly looks like he's trying to act natural after being accused of farting.
  • NMyTree
    NMyTree Posts: 2,374
    Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:
    What, do you think Ireland is still a pseudonym for "Catholic Church"? Pretty small-minded attitude, guy. Of course, I'm just a potato farmer who keeps a leprechaun as a pet, so what would I know?

    I refer you to this post: http://forums.pearljam.com/showpost.php?p=5427667&postcount=247

    NoTSoSweetPotato is a female:D

    But yeah, no doubt you're right, Rhino.
  • Rhinocerous Surprise
    Rhinocerous Surprise Posts: 4,423
    NMyTree wrote:
    NoTSoSweetPotato is a female:D

    But yeah, no doubt you're right, Rhino.

    Eh. I call everyone "guy" or "son", it's not a gender thing. :p

    I just can't believe this is the second time in two weeks I've been told I can't possibly know any Jews, cos I'm Irish. I thought people on the Train would be a little smarter than that. :rolleyes:

    But thanks for being among the smart ones. :)
    Smokey Robinson constantly looks like he's trying to act natural after being accused of farting.
  • sweetpotato
    sweetpotato Posts: 1,278
    Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:
    What, do you think Ireland is still a pseudonym for "Catholic Church"? Pretty small-minded attitude, guy. Of course, I'm just a potato farmer who keeps a leprechaun as a pet, so what would I know?

    I refer you to this post: http://forums.pearljam.com/showpost.php?p=5427667&postcount=247

    you know what they say about assuming? well, you're making an ass of yourself at least.

    but to answer your question, what i mean is that the US is home to a hugely diverse population, and our policies hopefully reflect that. as opposed to a primarily homogeneous country like ireland, which is relatively isolated, and let's be honest, not exactly a huge player in world politics. US foreign policy may not be perfect, surely it isn't, but we ARE a world leader. aside from all the american US-haters' claims that our support of israel is part of some conspiracy to take over the middle east and its oil, i think the fact that israel has been the underdog in so many instances for so many years, and right now sits among enemies who wish it ill at every turn, are the primary reasons the US supports israel's efforts to hold onto that land.

    that said, i do not agree with everything israel does, and i have said so in other threads. but i agree with evenkat that we it's equally wrong to assume that everything the palestinians do is right and justified.

    and the fact that you and helen are so vehemently anti-israel (and apparently anti-american) in this case is laughable, since you live in a country that went through something very similar, yet you haven't learned anything from it.
    "Ladies and gentlemen, the President of the United States, Barack Obama."

    "Obama's main opponent in this election on November 4th (was) not John McCain, it (was) ignorance."~Michael Moore

    "i'm feeling kinda righteous right now. with my badass motherfuckin' ukulele!"
    ~ed, 8/7
  • Rhinocerous Surprise
    Rhinocerous Surprise Posts: 4,423
    sweetpotato wrote:
    you know what they say about assuming? well, you're making an ass of yourself at least.

    but to answer your question, what i mean is that the US is home to a hugely diverse population, and our policies hopefully reflect that. as opposed to a primarily homogeneous country like ireland, which is relatively isolated, and let's be honest, not exactly a huge player in world politics. US foreign policy may not be perfect, surely it isn't, but we ARE a world leader. aside from all the american US-haters' claims that our support of israel is part of some conspiracy to take over the middle east and its oil, i think the fact that israel has been the underdog in so many instances for so many years, and right now sits among enemies who wish it ill at every turn, are the primary reasons the US supports israel's efforts to hold onto that land.

    that said, i do not agree with everything israel does, and i have said so in other threads. but i agree with evenkat that we it's equally wrong to assume that everything the palestinians do is right and justified.

    and the fact that you and helen are so vehemently anti-israel (and apparently anti-american) in this case is laughable, since you live in a country that went through something very similar, yet you haven't learned anything from it.

    That's not what you said. Let's quote, shall we?
    sweetpotato wrote:
    how many jews are there in irelend? i forget.

    oh, yeah. none.

    That's not the same as saying we're "primarily homogenous" - it's ignorant and condescending. The fact that we're not a huge player in world politics has absolutely nothing to do with the religious or ethnic diversity of our population.

    And I'm not even anti-Israel, or anti-America. I love America - it gave me my childhood TV shows. I'm anti-stupidity, and thinking Israel's "underdog" status gives them carte blanche to play the victim everytime they attack Palestine seems like stupidity to me. I'm not calling for the destruction of Israel - I'm calling for an end to the destruction of Palestine. Any anti-American sentiment is based on your government's blind support of that destruction.

    And the fact that myself and Helen live in a country that went through that... surely that makes our opinions on this more worthwhile?

    EDIT: And I should have said... Calling me an ass for responding to an offensive remark like yours is pretty low.
    Smokey Robinson constantly looks like he's trying to act natural after being accused of farting.
  • NMyTree
    NMyTree Posts: 2,374
    Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:
    That's not what you said. Let's quote, shall we?



    That's not the same as saying we're "primarily homogenous" - it's ignorant and condescending. The fact that we're not a huge player in world politics has absolutely nothing to do with the religious or ethnic diversity of our population.

    And I'm not even anti-Israel, or anti-America. I love America - it gave me my childhood TV shows. I'm anti-stupidity, and thinking Israel's "underdog" status gives them carte blanche to play the victim everytime they attack Palestine seems like stupidity to me. I'm not calling for the destruction of Israel - I'm calling for an end to the destruction of Palestine. Any anti-American sentiment is based on your government's blind support of that destruction.

    And the fact that myself and Helen live in a country that went through that... surely that makes our opinions on this more worthwhile?

    EDIT: And I should have said... Calling me an ass for responding to an offensive remark like yours is pretty low.

    Forget it, she's on a roll. Better off clapping with one hand:D

    Cue ............the mandatory NotSoSweetPotato preaching of how to debate, interact and communicate in a respectful, thougthful and polite manner; on the internet. Quicikly followed by the now infamous NotSoSweetPotato tips, scolding and condemnation on how to NOT insult people during said debates:D:D Which of course will be littered with lame attempts to insult in the form of childish potshots:D:D

    wait for it.............5....4...3...2..1...........
  • Rhinocerous Surprise
    Rhinocerous Surprise Posts: 4,423
    NMyTree wrote:
    Forget it, she's on a roll. Better off clapping with one hand: D

    Cue ............the mandatory NotSoSweetPotato preaching of how to debate, interact and communicate in a respectful, thougthful and polite manner; on the internet. Quicikly followed by the now infamous NotSoSweetPotato tips, scolding and condemnation on how to NOT insult people during said debates:D:D Which of course will be littered with lame attempts to insult in the form of childish potshots: D: D

    wait for it.............5....4...3...2..1...........

    Of course... It's my bad attitude that makes me want to set the record straight on her racist remarks. :p I should be more civil, and make broad, ignorant remarks, and call people asses for refuting them. :D


    I'm learneding. :)
    Smokey Robinson constantly looks like he's trying to act natural after being accused of farting.
  • sweetpotato
    sweetpotato Posts: 1,278
    i didn't call you an ass. i said you were making one of yourself. and i was drawing on an old saying, which you may be too young to have heard.

    as far a childish namecalling, no one does it better than NMyTree, apparently. i wasn't even speaking to him yet he felt the urge to call me names and ridicule me with no provocation whatsoever.

    Originally Posted by NMyTree
    "Forget it, she's on a roll. Better off clapping with one hand: D

    Cue ............the mandatory NotSoSweetPotato preaching of how to debate, interact and communicate in a respectful, thougthful and polite manner; on the internet. Quicikly followed by the now infamous NotSoSweetPotato tips, scolding and condemnation on how to NOT insult people during said debates Which of course will be littered with lame attempts to insult in the form of childish potshots: D: D

    wait for it.............5....4...3...2. .1..........."

    completely uncalled for.
    "Ladies and gentlemen, the President of the United States, Barack Obama."

    "Obama's main opponent in this election on November 4th (was) not John McCain, it (was) ignorance."~Michael Moore

    "i'm feeling kinda righteous right now. with my badass motherfuckin' ukulele!"
    ~ed, 8/7
  • NMyTree
    NMyTree Posts: 2,374
    sweetpotato wrote:
    i didn't call you an ass. i said you were making one of yourself

    Ah yes, quite the fine distinction. Much like the sweet potato and Yam:D

    sweetpotato wrote:
    ....as far a childish namecalling, no one does it better than NMyTree, apparently.

    Well, I didn't think I was all that good at it. Nor did I believe it was anything particulary creative or outstanding. But thank you for the compliment. We all have to be good at something, I suppose:D

    sweetpotato wrote:
    i wasn't even speaking to him yet he felt the urge to call me names and ridicule me with no provocation whatsoever.

    When have you ever needed for someone to be talking to you? That's never stopped you. Why would you expect different standards for others?

    sweetpotato wrote:
    ......completely uncalled for.


    Nevertheless, true.

    And I'll have to repeat myself...........

    When have you ever needed for someone to be talking to you? That's never stopped you. Why would you expect different standards for others?

    I think you're closer to a Yam, than a sweet potato:D;)
  • JordyWordy
    JordyWordy Posts: 2,261
    sweetpotato wrote:
    i think the fact that israel has been the underdog in so many instances for so many years, and right now sits among enemies who wish it ill at every turn, are the primary reasons the US supports israel's efforts to hold onto that land.

    im sure many middle easterns would argue that the links to the west are the reason they target Israel. for dragging the US into their culture and their politics when it has absolutely NOTHING to do with them
    sweetpotato wrote:
    but i agree with evenkat that we it's equally wrong to assume that everything the palestinians do is right and justified.
    Whoever said everything Palestinians do is right and justified? well maybe someone, i sure as shit didnt.

    i think the message seemed to be "theyre both wrong".
  • JordyWordy
    JordyWordy Posts: 2,261
    Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:
    What, do you think Ireland is still a pseudonym for "Catholic Church"? Pretty small-minded attitude, guy. Of course, I'm just a potato farmer who keeps a leprechaun as a pet, so what would I know?

    I refer you to this post: http://forums.pearljam.com/showpost.php?p=5427667&postcount=247

    haha, i clicked the link and got deja vu.
    that was some healthy venting right there on my part :)
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    sweetpotato wrote:
    you know what they say about assuming? well, you're making an ass of yourself at least.

    but to answer your question, what i mean is that the US is home to a hugely diverse population, and our policies hopefully reflect that. as opposed to a primarily homogeneous country like ireland, which is relatively isolated, and let's be honest, not exactly a huge player in world politics. US foreign policy may not be perfect, surely it isn't, but we ARE a world leader. aside from all the american US-haters' claims that our support of israel is part of some conspiracy to take over the middle east and its oil, i think the fact that israel has been the underdog in so many instances for so many years, and right now sits among enemies who wish it ill at every turn, are the primary reasons the US supports israel's efforts to hold onto that land.

    that said, i do not agree with everything israel does, and i have said so in other threads. but i agree with evenkat that we it's equally wrong to assume that everything the palestinians do is right and justified.

    and the fact that you and helen are so vehemently anti-israel (and apparently anti-american) in this case is laughable, since you live in a country that went through something very similar, yet you haven't learned anything from it.

    the united states had the chance to be world leader and they've blown it with their international law abuses. now they are nothing but a bully. unfortunately they have the firepower to back up their arrogance.

    please share with me how israel has been the underdog. it was created by western nations looking to appease their own guilt over an atrocity they chose to ignore until it couldnt be ignored any longer, with total disregard for the indigenous population of the area they decided to carve up.

    do not think for one minute i condone the actions of the palestinians either, but may i ask what you would do given the same situation. would you be content to live in the gaza strip? if israel were serious about peace the occupied territories would not exist and the right of return to refugee palestinians would be reinstated. and thats just for starters.
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  • Rhinocerous Surprise
    Rhinocerous Surprise Posts: 4,423
    JordyWordy wrote:
    haha, i clicked the link and got deja vu.
    that was some healthy venting right there on my part :)

    It seemed saddeningly relevant. :p
    Smokey Robinson constantly looks like he's trying to act natural after being accused of farting.
  • JordyWordy
    JordyWordy Posts: 2,261
    Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:
    It seemed saddeningly relevant. :p

    Don't worry. i've taken action. Those abusive americans arent gona belittle us or bully us around anymore....oh no sir.... NEVER AGAIN!!!
  • LikeAnOpeningBandForTheSun
    LikeAnOpeningBandForTheSun Posts: 6,097
    hi i'm new to this thread. just what is the fucking deal with Israel?
  • NMyTree
    NMyTree Posts: 2,374
    JordyWordy wrote:
    i think the message seemed to be "theyre both wrong".

    That's been my message for years and years.

    Both Israel and the Palestinians have commited attrocities for decades and decades.

    We've been long past the point of laying blame at only one side's feet.

    Responsibility, accountability and sanity must return to both sides. And of course the willingness to finally create an environment which provides a safe, happy and productive future for themselves and their children.

    I know this concept will conflict with the few here at the MT, who have their hearts set on defining and labeling me as an anti-semite. I know it will be quite disappointing for them to realize they missed my message all along. But they'll get over it. :D
  • evenkat
    evenkat Posts: 380
    Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:
    That's not what you said. Let's quote, shall we?


    That's not the same as saying we're "primarily homogenous" - it's ignorant and condescending. The fact that we're not a huge player in world politics has absolutely nothing to do with the religious or ethnic diversity of our population.

    And I'm not even anti-Israel, or anti-America. I love America - it gave me my childhood TV shows. I'm anti-stupidity, and thinking Israel's "underdog" status gives them carte blanche to play the victim everytime they attack Palestine seems like stupidity to me. I'm not calling for the destruction of Israel - I'm calling for an end to the destruction of Palestine. Any anti-American sentiment is based on your government's blind support of that destruction.

    And the fact that myself and Helen live in a country that went through that... surely that makes our opinions on this more worthwhile?

    EDIT: And I should have said... Calling me an ass for responding to an offensive remark like yours is pretty low.

    Well coming from a country that butts their nose in everyone's business, a quiet country in world politics sounds awesome to me.
    "...believe in lies...to get by...it's divine...whoa...oh, you know what its like..."
  • JordyWordy
    JordyWordy Posts: 2,261
    MrSmith wrote:
    hi i'm new to this thread. just what is the fucking deal with Israel?

    want a complicated topic over-simplified? cool.
    thus far the worthwhile information:

    Jews were victims of unspeakable crimes
    Israel was set up
    Israel now presents itself as a victim of continued persecution from Palestine
    but really, Israel is only as much of a victim as Palestine

    Hamas were democratically elected
    BUT...Hamas are terrorists

    Palestinians/Hamas use crude tactics and launch rockets into Israeli targets from residential areas.
    Israel responds by launching air strikes on those areas and kills Palestinians.

    Israel claims to be trying to keep peace yet still hasnt returned to the pre-67 borders

    So, theres the info. And to answer your question, i dont know
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    JordyWordy wrote:
    want a complicated topic over-simplified? cool.
    thus far the worthwhile information:

    Jews were victims of unspeakable crimes
    Israel was set up
    Israel now presents itself as a victim of continued persecution from Palestine
    but really, Israel is only as much of a victim as Palestine

    Hamas were democratically elected
    BUT...Hamas are terrorists

    Palestinians/Hamas use crude tactics and launch rockets into Israeli targets from residential areas.
    Israel responds by launching air strikes on those areas and kills Palestinians.

    Israel claims to be trying to keep peace yet still hasnt returned to the pre-67 borders

    So, theres the info. And to answer your question, i dont know

    dont forget there was a push before the shoah for a jewish state. and considering the amount of persecution jews have had to deal with throughout history who can blame them for wanting a haven. twas the execution in creating the state of israel, and its continued mode of maintenance, that was and remains the problem, not the fact that it exists.
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say

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