The Big Scary Word

245

Comments

  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    FiveB247x wrote:
    Not that I'm a socialist, but I always find it funny when people in our country get all worked up about discussing this. People obviously don't realize or recognize that in other industrialized nations which have particular areas which are "socialist" is that they pay far less and receive lots more. Meaning, we are US citizens as a whole, pay far more and receive a lot less for our tax dollars.

    Federal taxes are a form of socialism if you think about it. For example I live in NJ and for every dollar in federal taxes paid in this state we only receive around $.60. Other states in the union receive about $2.00 for ever $1.00 in federal taxes paid. So in a sense that is socialism, they government is redistributing the wealth from certain states to others that may not have the same level of capital.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • Gonzo1977
    Gonzo1977 Posts: 1,696
    pjalive21 wrote:
    if you work and get a paycheck, trickle down economics worked for you

    Really? Trickle Down Economics is the reason I get a paycheck? Are you really that Naive? Corporate CEO's now earn anywhere from 500-1000 times the salary of their average employee!!! Not to mention CEO's are pretty much guaranteed under a Trickle Down Republican Tax plan a "platinum" parachute worth hundreds of millions of dollars in severance and retirement pay. Do I really need to bring up AIG, ENRON as examples? Trickle Down economics prevents regulations against these abuses. Again...I'm glad it worked for you but arguments such as the above show a complete ignorance and utter lack of understanding of basic Economics.
    pjalive21 wrote:
    I also dont think someone who did something with their life and makes alot of money shouldnt have to give more money to someone who chose mediocrity

    Again...What the hell is wrong with you? Are you saying that because someone doesn't make as much money as you that they don't work incredibley hard for their living and that they chose "Mediocrity". That's Complete Bullshit!!! Again your utter lack of understanding in economics is what obviously leads you to make such ignorant and obtuse comments like the above.

    What you're failing to realize is that The typical "rich" person qualifies for more credits rebates and exceptions than middle class tax payers.
    This is because they recieve mostly unearned income". This is basically any income that you don't have to work for: interest, capital gains, dividends, rent paid on real estate, etc. They don't do anything for the interest their savings account earns. They basically get money just for having the money sitting there, hence it is "unearned" and This is where the very rich get a break in their taxes and with the right accountan pay less taxes then their lowest paid employee.
    pjalive21 wrote:
    a perfect example of Obama's policies are Indians..look at what the governemnt did to them and their reservations? they are amongst the poorest people in the US..why? the government gave them handouts

    WOW!!! I'll let this one stand on it's own.
  • FiveB247x
    FiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    Yes you are correct, but I think when most people refer to "socialism" or "socialist policy" they're refering to programs or policies that specifically are run as such. Like the new way our Banking system is..haha
    mammasan wrote:
    Federal taxes are a form of socialism if you think about it. For example I live in NJ and for every dollar in federal taxes paid in this state we only receive around $.60. Other states in the union receive about $2.00 for ever $1.00 in federal taxes paid. So in a sense that is socialism, they government is redistributing the wealth from certain states to others that may not have the same level of capital.
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • Indifference
    Indifference Posts: 2,784
    Should move to a flat tax that way everyone pays their fair share. Why should one dollar earned be taxed at 10% and another at 35%?

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  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    Indifference wrote:
    Should move to a flat tax that way everyone pays there fair share. Why should one dollar earned be taxed at 10% and another at 35%?

    A national sales tax is the system I prefer, like the Fair Tax.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • Gonzo1977
    Gonzo1977 Posts: 1,696
    Indifference wrote:
    Should move to a flat tax that way everyone pays their fair share. Why should one dollar earned be taxed at 10% and another at 35%?

    It sounds good in theory. And It's fair in principle

    But it can't work because our income and assets are not on an equal plain with the very wealthy in this Country. We'd in turn get royally screwed if that was the case.

    Especially because of all the Tax breaks that are currently in place for the Wealthy. Things like captial gains, and various loopholes that the rich utilize to avoid paying taxes on 90% of their actual income; Loopholes that aren't availible for Middle Class America.

    We'd get screwed because the Wealthy would continue to pay 0 taxes while the rest of us end up paying out the ass.

    Another overlooked fact is The very rich in this country don't pay into things like Medicare, or Social Securty unlike 95% of the American People. It just makes it all the more vile when Republican President's like Bush Sr. Reagan, and George W all tap into and Borrow from Social Security and suck it dry.

    We forget that things like Social Security used to work very well before Greedy Politicians "On both Sides of The Floor" decided to tap into it and bleed it dry.

    It's an absurd notion to think that keeping the very rich "Very Rich" is somehow magically going trickledown and improve the standard of living for all of us.

    This neither stimulates the economy or creates jobs.


    It's a myth. And It's a tax system that just doesn't work.
  • Indifference
    Indifference Posts: 2,784
    How would there be a loop hole for CG if there was a flat tax and CG are taxed at that same rate?

    Anyone that has income pays SS tax and Medicare - sure SS has a cap which is fair if your not allowed to receive SS for the amount you get taxed on. Is it fair for someone to pay 5-10 times the amount of SS and then when both people retire they collect the same amount?

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    Mexico=1, Colombia=1 



  • Gonzo1977
    Gonzo1977 Posts: 1,696
    Indifference wrote:
    How would there be a loop hole for CG if there was a flat tax and CG are taxed at that same rate?

    Anyone that has income pays SS tax and Medicare - sure SS has a cap which is fair if your not allowed to receive SS for the amount you get taxed on. Is it fair for someone to pay 5-10 times the amount of SS and then when both people retire they collect the same amount?


    Fact is our money isn't on the same level. The rich do not claim 90% of their income. Much of their money and assets are locked away in high yeild interest accounts, they gain a ton of money off of investments and other assets that although generate massive income, do not get taxed a single cent...It never get's touched by the Government. It's all in the way you move the money around.

    I'm not saying that flat tax wouldn't work on principle and theory. It's just there would have to be a ton of regulation implimented to prevent the rich from avoiding 90% of their income to get taxed.
  • Indifference
    Indifference Posts: 2,784
    Gonzo1977 wrote:
    Fact is our money isn't on the same level. The rich do not claim 90% of their income. Much of their money and assets are locked away in high yeild interest accounts, they gain a ton of money off of investments and other assets that although generate massive income, do not get taxed a single cent...It never get's touched by the Government. It's all in the way you move the money around.

    I'm not saying that flat tax wouldn't work on principle and theory. It's just there would have to be a ton of regulation implimented to prevent the rich from avoiding 90% of their income to get taxed.

    The top 1% pay 90% of the taxes - not sure where you get the fact they don't pay on 90% of their income?

    SHOW COUNT: (170) 1990's=3, 2000's=53, 2010/20's=114, US=124, CAN=15, Europe=20 ,New Zealand=4, Australia=5
    Mexico=1, Colombia=1 



  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    pjalive21 wrote:
    a perfect example of Obama's policies are Indians..look at what the governemnt did to them and their reservations? they are amongst the poorest people in the US..why? the government gave them handouts

    So you're saying Indians are fucked by policies similar to Obama's? If his policies are so bad for them, why have most (if not all) of the tribes endorsed Obama?

    Regardless of Obama, I can't believe you're saying the reason Indians are so poor/fucked is because the U.S. government has given them too much.... just... WOW... I don't even know what to say...
  • know1
    know1 Posts: 6,801
    Gonzo1977 wrote:
    Trickle Down Economics have failed us miserablely over and over again.

    The very rich in this country do not let their money trickle down...The wealth get's clogged at the top and it stays there.

    Oh come on!! Do you really see the rich living out in the woods somewhere in a tar paper shack with their money buried in the backyard??? Nope. They spend it.

    Do people really believe this crap?
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • know1
    know1 Posts: 6,801
    Gonzo1977 wrote:
    It sounds good in theory. And It's fair in principle

    But it can't work because our income and assets are not on an equal plain with the very wealthy in this Country. We'd in turn get royally screwed if that was the case.

    Especially because of all the Tax breaks that are currently in place for the Wealthy. Things like captial gains, and various loopholes that the rich utilize to avoid paying taxes on 90% of their actual income; Loopholes that aren't availible for Middle Class America.

    We'd get screwed because the Wealthy would continue to pay 0 taxes while the rest of us end up paying out the ass.

    Another overlooked fact is The very rich in this country don't pay into things like Medicare, or Social Securty unlike 95% of the American People. It just makes it all the more vile when Republican President's like Bush Sr. Reagan, and George W all tap into and Borrow from Social Security and suck it dry.

    We forget that things like Social Security used to work very well before Greedy Politicians "On both Sides of The Floor" decided to tap into it and bleed it dry.

    It's an absurd notion to think that keeping the very rich "Very Rich" is somehow magically going trickledown and improve the standard of living for all of us.

    This neither stimulates the economy or creates jobs.


    It's a myth. And It's a tax system that just doesn't work.

    You've really somehow convinced yourself that the wealthy are really only paying taxes on 10% of their income???!!! WOW!

    And with a sales tax you think the wealthy would pay $0. The only way they could do that would be to not purchase anything.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    pjalive21 wrote:
    1. all you have to do is have a job and you get money back, you dont ever of had to pay taxes to get a refund

    Will you please explain this a little further? Are you referring to people who work but don't make enough money to owe taxes? If so, I don't understand the problem.

    For instance, I've had a job for most of my life. Income tax has been deducted from every paycheck, no matter how little money I made. Let's say that Uncle Sam deducted $5000 of the money I earned this year for income tax. At the end of the year, I do my taxes and find that I owed $3000 in income tax for the year. Since I paid more than I owed, I get a refund of $2000. (These are just totally random amounts, of course.)

    Now, when I made minimum wage, let's say Uncle Sam deducted $3000 of the money I earned that year for income tax. At the end of the year, I did my taxes and found that I didn't make enough money to owe any income tax. Since I paid more than I owed (paid $3000; owed $0), I got a refund of $3000.

    Is that $3000 the refund you're talking about that I got even though I didn't pay taxes? If so, that's MY money, so the government is not giving me a handout or redistributing someone else's wealth to me even though I didn't earn it.

    But it's entirely possible that this isn't what you're talking about at all. Please explain...
  • Kann
    Kann Posts: 1,146
    Gonzo1977 wrote:
    What you're failing to realize is that The typical "rich" person qualifies for more credits rebates and exceptions than middle class tax payers.
    This is because they recieve mostly unearned income". This is basically any income that you don't have to work for: interest, capital gains, dividends, rent paid on real estate, etc. They don't do anything for the interest their savings account earns. They basically get money just for having the money sitting there, hence it is "unearned" and This is where the very rich get a break in their taxes and with the right accountan pay less taxes then their lowest paid employee.
    [obiwan]everything is allright, there is no widening income gap. The economic policies are not responsible for ever growing number of poor households in the general population[/obiwan]
  • Indifference
    Indifference Posts: 2,784
    scb wrote:
    Will you please explain this a little further? Are you referring to people who work but don't make enough money to owe taxes? If so, I don't understand the problem.

    For instance, I've had a job for most of my life. Income tax has been deducted from every paycheck, no matter how little money I made. Let's say that Uncle Sam deducted $5000 of the money I earned this year for income tax. At the end of the year, I do my taxes and find that I owed $3000 in income tax for the year. Since I paid more than I owed, I get a refund of $2000. (These are just totally random amounts, of course.)

    Now, when I made minimum wage, let's say Uncle Sam deducted $3000 of the money I earned that year for income tax. At the end of the year, I did my taxes and found that I didn't make enough money to owe any income tax. Since I paid more than I owed (paid $3000; owed $0), I got a refund of $3000.

    Is that $3000 the refund you're talking about that I got even though I didn't pay taxes? If so, that's MY money, so the government is not giving me a handout or redistributing someone else's wealth to me even though I didn't earn it.

    But it's entirely possible that this isn't what you're talking about at all. Please explain...

    Using your example above the fact that you paid (after refund) no federal taxes for the year means everything the govt provides is a handout for you and someone else is paying for it.

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  • unsung
    unsung I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
    pjalive21 wrote:
    if you work and get a paycheck, trickle down economics worked for you

    AMEN




    And if you sit and collect a welfare check and live Section 8 socialism works for you.

    I'm sick of paying for losers.
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    unsung wrote:
    AMEN




    And if you sit and collect a welfare check and live Section 8 socialism works for you.

    I'm sick of paying for losers.

    Do you realize that the amount of tax dollars spent on welfare abuse is far less than is spent on cost plus contracts by our defense department or on agricultural subsidies or corporate welfare. I agree that we need some serious welfare reform but the amount of money from your paycheck that actually goes to welfare is insignificant compared to the amount that is spent on the other three areas I mentioned.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • Gonzo1977
    Gonzo1977 Posts: 1,696
    Indifference wrote:
    The top 1% pay 90% of the taxes - not sure where you get the fact they don't pay on 90% of their income?


    That is completley false. They do not pay 90% of the taxes that's absurd!!
    If they do they should seriously consider murdering their accountant.

    First of all on 60% of America actually pays income tax

    Secondly The top 1% only pay 26% of taxes in this country.

    The very rich in this country do not pay taxes on 90% of their income. The rich don't need the paycheck, and so can elect to defer income until a better deal comes along, or take it in a preferential way--capital gains for example.
    Not to mention they are able to move their money around into non-taxable but profit generating accounts. Their money is also mobile. They can move a bulk of it to places where the tax climate is more favorable

    Beyond all this, the federal budget is top-heavy with corporate welfare handing out massive tax credits to the rich. Much of their income is derived from dividends and capital gains, which are taxed at only a 15% Federal rate, as opposed to a Federal rate more than twice that for ordinary income, bonuses, etc. Most of theses assets, although they generate massive anual revenue end up getting taxed very little.

    Somone like Warren Buffet actually pays less taxes then his Secretary.
    Buffet pays 18% of his wages to the IRS while his staff pays nearly double at 33%.
  • Indifference
    Indifference Posts: 2,784
    here is the source for the top 1% - not sure where you get the 26% from.

    http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/22652.html

    SHOW COUNT: (170) 1990's=3, 2000's=53, 2010/20's=114, US=124, CAN=15, Europe=20 ,New Zealand=4, Australia=5
    Mexico=1, Colombia=1 



  • Gonzo1977
    Gonzo1977 Posts: 1,696
    know1 wrote:
    You've really somehow convinced yourself that the wealthy are really only paying taxes on 10% of their income???!!! WOW!

    And with a sales tax you think the wealthy would pay $0. The only way they could do that would be to not purchase anything.

    No.
    I think it is you that have convinced yourself of some magic dream world where Corporate Greed and Loopholes for the very rich do not exist.

    As for your theory on the rich buying so much into America.

    I think you seriously need to look where the top 5% of this country spends their money. IIt sure as fuck isn't in America.

    I don't know about you...But I don't see many Billionaires driving American Made Cars.

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