I'm sitting in a Pro Life meeting right now...

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  • meistereder
    meistereder Posts: 1,577
    It's truly the perfect topic for the ultimate debate. Always has been. Lots of emotion on both sides, and plenty of ammunition on either side to use logically (at least most of the time).

    I don't see one side winning any time soon.

    For the record, I am pro choice. I acknowledge that in an abortion, the doctor is ending a "life" or at least the potential life of a human being. I believe the downside of that (which is significant) is outweighed by the right of a woman to have control over her body, coupled with the proven disastrous consequences of having abortion be illegal. Abortion is a horrible reality, but the choice to have one is, sadly, necessary in a free country. I guess that is the best way I can explain it on my side. I am sure half of you disagree though.
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  • emily18
    emily18 Posts: 489
    meistereder wrote:
    coupled with the proven disastrous consequences of having abortion be illegal. Abortion is a horrible reality, but the choice to have one is, sadly, necessary in a free country.

    VERY very true. To get rid of abortions all together would be so disastrous...woman would just be getting back alley abortions, which would cause way more complications to women, possibly even death.
  • meistereder
    meistereder Posts: 1,577
    emily18 wrote:
    VERY very true. To get rid of abortions all together would be so disastrous...woman would just be getting back alley abortions, which would cause way more complications to women, possibly even death.


    History showed the horror stories. If not "back alleys," at least unlicensed doctors in the US, or doctors in Mexico or other countriess. The rich would go to Canada or Europe. The very poor would try to do it themselves or have someone who doesn't know how do it for them. Not good alternative for most people. These things have already happened within some of our lifetimes, but I think lots of people don't know how bad it was.
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  • PJBuckeye
    PJBuckeye Posts: 1,102
    cincybearcat wrote:
    Part of that made me laugh...

    My stance on abortion has nothing to do with religion.

    Mine too. My stance against abortion started before I refound my religion. I always have thought of abortion as a terrible act, while I spent a good amount of my life questioning my faith.

    I find it funny how the proaborts will throw the judemental label on the ProLifers when they are just as guilty.
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  • SDHSClassof82
    SDHSClassof82 Seattle Posts: 306
    cincybearcat wrote:
    Interesting, but I still believe a difference between a natural ending of a pregnancy and a purposeful intervention to end a pregnancy that otherwise would have resulted in a baby being born.

    I'm pro-choice too...women and men have the right to choose to have sex...and the right to choose to use contraception...and the right to do so knowing that contraceptives are not 100% effective.

    For me, the issue of abortion is very simple and easy...except for women who get raped. There is no choice there and I can not begin to understand the potential damage done by having to give birth to the child of a rapist...but I also have not been convinced that you "punish" onew of th evictim (the baby) by killing it. Man I wish it was simple.

    Well stated. I understand your position and the reasons supporting it with one exception. Do you not agree that an unplanned pregnancy also can devastate people's lives (not just the mother's) in circumstances other than rape?

    Maybe you do, but also consider that the life of the baby always takes higher precedence? Carrying a child, giving birth and giving it up for adoption is not very simple and easy. Becoming a mother changes the course of a woman's life, even if she doesn't raise the child. Historically, the lack of control over childbearing has been a huge factor in women's health and poverty.

    In my mind, there is a definite distinction between ending the potential life of a fetus in early gestation and killing someone who has been born. I understand that others don't see it that way.
    “Wind in my hair, I feel part of everywhere...
    Late at night I hear the trees, they're singing with the dead...overhead...”
  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,839
    SDHSClassof82 wrote:
    Well stated. I understand your position and the reasons supporting it with one exception. Do you not agree that an unplanned pregnancy also can devastate people's lives (not just the mother's) in circumstances other than rape?

    Maybe you do, but also consider that the life of the baby always takes higher precedence? Carrying a child, giving birth and giving it up for adoption is not very simple and easy. Becoming a mother changes the course of a woman's life, even if she doesn't raise the child. Historically, the lack of control over childbearing has been a huge factor in women's health and poverty.

    In my mind, there is a definite distinction between ending the potential life of a fetus in early gestation and killing someone who has been born. I understand that others don't see it that way.

    Yes, I agree that any unplanned pregnancy could have a negative effect on someone's life...but I do think that th elife of the child trumps that effect on it;s parents/siblings, etc. Innocent life trumps.

    I understand your position well though, and while I disagree, it makes sense to me.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • meistereder
    meistereder Posts: 1,577
    cincybearcat wrote:
    Yes, I agree that any unplanned pregnancy could have a negative effect on someone's life...but I do think that th elife of the child trumps that effect on it;s parents/siblings, etc. Innocent life trumps.

    I understand your position well though, and while I disagree, it makes sense to me.


    I think your point of view is pretty common, and I understand it. But it also unfortunately begs the question of where "life" begins, which is one of the abortion debate's pitfalls. At birth? At viability? At conception? Before conception (one can say that the sperm and egg are themselves "alive")? At what point does the right of the innocent sperm+egg combination trump the rights of the people who are alive?
    San Diego 10/25/00, Mountain View 6/1/03, Santa Barbara 10/28/03, Northwest School 3/18/05, San Diego 7/7/06, Los Angeles 7/9/06, 7/10/06, Honolulu (U2) 12/9/06, Santa Barbara (EV) 4/10/08, Los Angeles (EV) 4/12/08, Hartford 6/27/08, Mansfield 6/28/08, VH1 Rock Honors The Who 7/12/08, Seattle 9/21/09, Universal City 9/30/09, 10/1/09, 10/6/09, 10/7/09, San Diego 10/9/09, Los Angeles (EV) 7/8/11, Santa Barbara (EV) 7/9/11, Chicago 7/19/13, San Diego 11/21/13, Los Angeles 11/23/13, 11/24/13, Oakland 11/26/13, Chicago 8/22/16, Missoula 8/13/18, Boston 9/2/18, Los Angeles 2/25/22 (EV), San Diego 5/3/22, Los Angeles 5/6/22, 5/7/22, Imola 6/25/22, Los Angeles 5/21/24, [London 6/29/24], [Boston 9/15/24]
  • urbanhippie
    urbanhippie Posts: 3,007
    cincybearcat wrote:
    Yes, I agree that any unplanned pregnancy could have a negative effect on someone's life...but I do think that th elife of the child trumps that effect on it;s parents/siblings, etc. Innocent life trumps.

    I understand your position well though, and while I disagree, it makes sense to me.
    The negative effect may not just be on the mothers/siblings life. It can be on the baby life too.
    I had an unplanned pregancy that I chose to carry on with. I had the choice. If that had been taken from me, if I was forced to carry it on with no say, who's to say that I wouldn't have resented the child for that? Blamed a baby for the negative effects on mine and other lives? No mother wants that.

    Because the decision was mine, that never happened. I had no regrets about having another child. I was fully aware of what could have happened and accepted it. Because I made the choice.
    A human being that was given to fly.

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  • SDHSClassof82
    SDHSClassof82 Seattle Posts: 306
    cincybearcat wrote:
    Yes, I agree that any unplanned pregnancy could have a negative effect on someone's life...but I do think that th elife of the child trumps that effect on it;s parents/siblings, etc. Innocent life trumps.

    Got it. I hear you.
    “Wind in my hair, I feel part of everywhere...
    Late at night I hear the trees, they're singing with the dead...overhead...”
  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    PJBuckeye wrote:
    I find it funny how the proaborts will throw the judemental label on the ProLifers when they are just as guilty.

    How so?
  • Dylan Stone
    Dylan Stone Posts: 1,145
    One major point to remember is that women will ALWAYS terminate pregnancies.

    The rich will ALWAYS have access to safe terminations.

    The poor and maybe the young, scared and uninformed will figure out ways to terminate pregnancies. However unsafe they may be.

    Do we want to put these populations at risk?

    That is all overturning Roe v Wade will do.

    If you are against abortion DON'T HAVE ONE.

    You will not stop free will by trying to impose your values on others.

    CHOICE FOR ALL.... NOT ONLY THE RICH!
  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    cincybearcat wrote:
    Yes, I agree that any unplanned pregnancy could have a negative effect on someone's life...but I do think that th elife of the child trumps that effect on it;s parents/siblings, etc. Innocent life trumps.

    But when two lives are equally innocent (unborn baby & born sibling), how do you decide that one necessarily trumps the other? Or do you not believe them to be equally innocent?
  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,839
    scb wrote:
    But when two lives are equally innocent (unborn baby & born sibling), how do you decide that one necessarily trumps the other? Or do you not believe them to be equally innocent?


    Having an abortion kills the "unborn baby"

    Not having the abortion does not kill the "born sibling"

    So, not having the abortion wins because no one dies.

    They are equally innocent, the outcome is what drives the decision.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,839
    GTFLYGIRL wrote:
    One major point to remember is that women will ALWAYS terminate pregnancies.

    The rich will ALWAYS have access to safe terminations.

    The poor and maybe the young, scared and uninformed will figure out ways to terminate pregnancies. However unsafe they may be.

    Do we want to put these populations at risk?

    That is all overturning Roe v Wade will do.

    If you are against abortion DON'T HAVE ONE.

    You will not stop free will by trying to impose your values on others.

    CHOICE FOR ALL.... NOT ONLY THE RICH!

    I will never understand this argument...in that case, sense people will continue to do whatever they want anyhow, we shouldn't have any laws.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    GTFLYGIRL wrote:
    One major point to remember is that women will ALWAYS terminate pregnancies.

    The rich will ALWAYS have access to safe terminations.

    The poor and maybe the young, scared and uninformed will always figure out ways to terminate pregnancies.

    Do we want to put these populations at risk?

    Of course we do! :rolleyes:

    Otherwise, we would care more about the large and growing disparity in unintended pregnancy rates based on income and race and maybe work to do something about it.
  • Kilgore_Trout
    Kilgore_Trout Posts: 7,334
    cincybearcat wrote:
    I will never understand this argument...in that case, sense people will continue to do whatever they want anyhow, we shouldn't have any laws.
    she put it more eloquently and concisely than most in this thread... if you dont understand it then so be it... but dont try to draw connections between getting an abortion and breaking a real law... laws are established to protect the peace of the general public... how does something as private as an abortion effect anyone other than the mother and the "baby"?
    "Senza speme vivemo in disio"

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  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,839
    scb wrote:
    Of course we do! :rolleyes:

    Otherwise, we would care more about the large and growing disparity in unintended pregnancy rates based on income and race and maybe work to do something about it.


    Well, there you go, that is where it shoudl start, because whether you are pro-choice or pro-life, we all benefit from eliminating the need for abortions...the argument/disagreement/conversation goes away to a large extent.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,839
    sgossard3 wrote:
    she put it more eloquently and concisely than most in this thread... if you dont understand it then so be it... but dont try to draw connections between getting an abortion and breaking a real law... laws are established to protect the peace of the general public... how does something as private as an abortion effect anyone other than the mother and the "baby"?


    There are child endangerment laws...no? I see it as the same thing. If you don't think the fetus is a child, then I can see being pro-choice. But to say that people will do something anyway as a reason for allowing it, it just not an effective argument in my opinion.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • decides2dream
    decides2dream Posts: 14,977
    the abortion debate. :)


    If I, I get to know your name
    Well, if I could trace your private number, baby

    All I know is that to me
    You look like you’re lots of fun
    Open up your lovin’ arms
    I want some, want some

    I set my sights on you
    (And no one else will do)
    And I, I’ve got to have my way now, baby

    All I know is that to me
    You look like you’re havin’ fun
    Open up your lovin’ arms
    Watch out, here I come

    Chorus:
    You spin me right ‘round, baby
    Right ‘round like a record, baby
    Right ‘round, ‘round, ‘round,
    You spin me right ‘round, baby
    Right ‘round like a record, baby
    Right ‘round, ‘round, ‘round

    I-I got to be your friend now, baby
    And I would like to move in just a little bit closer

    All I know is that to me
    You look like you’re lots of fun
    Open up your lovin’ arms
    Watch out, here I come

    Chorus (x1)

    I want your love
    I want your love

    All I know is that to me
    You look like you’re lots of fun
    Open up your lovin’ arms
    Watch out, here I come

    Chrous (x2)




    hope it's not in poor taste to point out that the song originates with the band, Dead or Alive.


    just a bit of levity on a poor, beaten dead horse of a debate here. :D
    Stay with me...
    Let's just breathe...


    I am myself like you somehow


  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    cincybearcat wrote:
    But to say that people will do something anyway as a reason for allowing it, it just not an effective argument in my opinion.

    I believe this is what's called a harm reduction approach, which makes sense from a public health perspective.

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