"Free" Healthcare: Our Founding Fathers' Opinions

DriftingByTheStorm
DriftingByTheStorm Posts: 8,684
edited March 2008 in A Moving Train
All though i've noticed that a lot of the people on this board could give two shits what the great people who founded America thought about anything, i never the less though i would at least put these up here to demonstrate just how far away from the true American ideal the thought process in this country has regressed:

“Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated.” -Thomas Jefferson

“With respect to the two words ‘general welfare,’ I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators.” - James Madison

“…[T]he government of the United States is a definite government, confined to specified objects. It is not like the state governments, whose powers are more general. Charity is no part of the legislative duty of the government.” -James Madison

“When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.” -Benjamin Franklin

“A wise and frugal government … shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.” -Thomas Jefferson

Keep on blindly believing in freedom by government decree and thus heradling the end of the republic.
:rolleyes:

"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." - Jefferson
If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • dontloseyourheat
    dontloseyourheat Posts: 483
    It's kind of pointless to base a government off a 200 yr old document. If we went by what our founding fathers specified, only white male land owners would have rights.
    "Don't lose your inner heat...ever" - EV 5/13/06
  • Kann
    Kann Posts: 1,146
    With all due respect to all these people, they lived 200 years ago. The founding fathers of the occidental democracies had slaves and found that normal. All of these people, greeks and americans, did really good things but that doesn't mean the world stopped 200 (or 2500) years ago.
  • DriftingByTheStorm
    DriftingByTheStorm Posts: 8,684
    So living in a country with a document that provided you with the very freedoms that allow you to disagree with it,
    you therefore think that because said document is over 200 years old, we can just disgard it?

    If you want to change its intention, shoudn't we at least be honest and modify it to fit our changing wants?

    It is a LIVING document.
    It is not DEAD.

    So if you want to change it,
    just man up and say, "i don't like it, lets change it"
    but lets not ignore it.

    And if you think the wisdom of our fathers is no longer wisdom, because it is 200 year old wisdom, well that is another problem.

    Also, i was just waiting for the standard canned, "yeah but they had slaves" response. Just suprised it was the first and second i received.

    Yup you know,
    you're all right.

    They had slaves.
    It therefore negates the very foundation of our country's principles.

    Oh well,
    fuck it.
    If I was to smile and I held out my hand
    If I opened it now would you not understand?
  • Kel Varnsen
    Kel Varnsen Posts: 1,952
    If you base your government around those quotes then I suppose that government funding for education should be outlawed as well. How come even people who are totally against government funding for health care also aren't totally against public education?
  • Pacomc79
    Pacomc79 Posts: 9,404
    Honestly I still think the root of the problem is the insurance companies and thier rise since World War 2 due to witholding of money from paychecks and people not really knowing what they pay for healthcare. It's the same deal as income tax really.
    My Girlfriend said to me..."How many guitars do you need?" and I replied...."How many pairs of shoes do you need?" She got really quiet.
  • DriftingByTheStorm
    DriftingByTheStorm Posts: 8,684
    Kel Varnsen wrote:
    If you base your government around those quotes then I suppose that government funding for education should be outlawed as well.

    Well you wouldn't get an argument from me on that one either.
    I'm sure the welfare mothers would disagree.
    Along with all the bourgeoise who love just giving their kids a bowl of cereal before the big yellow bus comes to take their kid away for "free".

    They also talked a WHOLE lot about how the constitution was meant for a MORAL people who believed in god and personal responsibility, and the idea of rights being assigned by a supreme creator, not by human legislation.

    :D
    If I was to smile and I held out my hand
    If I opened it now would you not understand?
  • Pacomc79
    Pacomc79 Posts: 9,404
    Kel Varnsen wrote:
    If you base your government around those quotes then I suppose that government funding for education should be outlawed as well.


    from the federal government absolutely. I think the original idea was a protectorate national government with strong state governments giving the people the most direct influence over their governance... currently this is not the case.
    My Girlfriend said to me..."How many guitars do you need?" and I replied...."How many pairs of shoes do you need?" She got really quiet.
  • dontloseyourheat
    dontloseyourheat Posts: 483
    Pacomc79 wrote:
    from the federal government absolutely. I think the original idea was a protectorate national government with strong state governments giving the people the most direct influence over their governance... currently this is not the case.


    If I remember correctly, the Articles of Confederation gave the states much more power than the national government. Eventually it resulted in a disjointed mess as states had different laws and regulations.
    "Don't lose your inner heat...ever" - EV 5/13/06
  • DriftingByTheStorm
    DriftingByTheStorm Posts: 8,684
    dontloseyourheat wrote:
    If I remember correctly, the Articles of Confederation gave the states much more power than the national government. Eventually it resulted in a disjointed mess as states had different laws and regulations.

    Yep.
    That is why they wrote the constitution.

    You should try reading The Federalist Papers sometime.
    You'd better understand what the actual intent of the federal governmetn was meant to be.

    It wasn't to dish out free welfare and subisdization.

    It was meant for providing a fundamental commonality of law. It helps keep the members of the union from pissing off eachother and from pissing off foreign powers, by providing such commonality, and furthermore it was meant to provide for a common defense from invasion. Lastly it was intended to preserve the Union!

    Beyond that, the scope of the federal government was intended to be VERY VERY VERY LIMITED.

    The Federalist Papers
    If I was to smile and I held out my hand
    If I opened it now would you not understand?
  • Pacomc79
    Pacomc79 Posts: 9,404
    dontloseyourheat wrote:
    If I remember correctly, the Articles of Confederation gave the states much more power than the national government. Eventually it resulted in a disjointed mess as states had different laws and regulations.


    and yes that's the potential, but that's the whole reason to have a federal government... to provide standards, to deal with interstate issues currency etc and to help everything run smooth, basically it's what made the constition necessary... Framework. The more power a national government has the people have less control over thier own personal governance.

    The country was fairly new a the time of the AOC... there are always some problems anytime a new system is put in place.
    My Girlfriend said to me..."How many guitars do you need?" and I replied...."How many pairs of shoes do you need?" She got really quiet.
  • rearviewmiror
    rearviewmiror Posts: 894
    what has government become? Voting themselves money. I would contend that national health care is no where near the danger that special interests and businessmen writing policy is.
    9/7/98, 8/3/00, 9/4/00, 4/15/03, 7/1/03, 9/28/04, 9/29/04, 5/24/06, 5/25/06, 6/17/08, 6/22/08, 6/28/08, 6/30/08, 5/17/10, 10/15/13, 10/16/13.
  • Pacomc79
    Pacomc79 Posts: 9,404
    rearviewmiror wrote:
    what has government become? Voting themselves money. I would contend that national health care is no where near the danger that special interests and businessmen writing policy is.

    I'm kind of with you on that. It opens an entire new set of problems... but I don't think largely we would be worse off that we are currently in many areas. Wait times suck already, people go to hospitals and doctors offices needlessly already, they over use 911 already...the quality one gets for the money is deplorable in some cases... marketers and insurance companies pretty much own the system.
    My Girlfriend said to me..."How many guitars do you need?" and I replied...."How many pairs of shoes do you need?" She got really quiet.
  • blackredyellow
    blackredyellow Posts: 5,889
    dontloseyourheat wrote:
    It's kind of pointless to base a government off a 200 yr old document. If we went by what our founding fathers specified, only white male land owners would have rights.


    And let's not forget that in those days, doctor's care could be traded for couple dozen eggs or fixing the doctor's wagon wheel.

    People wouldn't have to sell their homes or farms to pay a doctor bills.
    My whole life
    was like a picture
    of a sunny day
    “We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
    ― Abraham Lincoln
  • DriftingByTheStorm
    DriftingByTheStorm Posts: 8,684
    blackredyellow wrote:
    And let's not forget that in those days, doctor's care could be traded for couple dozen eggs or fixing the doctor's wagon wheel.

    People wouldn't have to sell their homes or farms to pay a doctor bills.

    Yeah and had we actualy listened to what they put in our constitution for us, we would still have very affordable healthcare.

    Unfortuantely we let the banks control the money supply, and now they have inflated the currency by untold multiples, causing the price of everything to increase exponentialy.

    :cool:
    If I was to smile and I held out my hand
    If I opened it now would you not understand?
  • macgyver06
    macgyver06 Posts: 2,500
    Pacomc79 wrote:
    Honestly I still think the root of the problem is the insurance companies and thier rise since World War 2 due to witholding of money from paychecks and people not really knowing what they pay for healthcare. It's the same deal as income tax really.


    insurance companies are responsible for the false rise in health care prices its a pretend system..


    make the insurance companies illegal and the working class will have health care.

    otherwise people will continue to get super rich... and remember.. these people do not want change when they in their own..sick...tiwsted heads are living what they assume is the american dream.. but in actuality is just greed and they are still slaves.. money cant buy you out of that
  • DriftingByTheStorm
    DriftingByTheStorm Posts: 8,684
    macgyver06 wrote:
    insurance companies are responsible for the false rise in health care prices its a pretend system..


    make the insurance companies illegal and the working class will have health care.

    otherwise people will continue to get super rich... and remember.. these people do not want change when they in their own..sick...tiwsted heads are living what they assume is the american dream.. but in actuality is just greed and they are still slaves.. money cant buy you out of that

    Or maybe it is a combination of the facts that we have rampant inflation, a healthcare system that is one of the most disgustingly regulated systems in the country, and a government that is subsidizing an entire class of people with medicare and medicade and forcing the industry to shift the balance of the difference over to the honest man for payment.

    Then you could add corporate manipulation at the bottom of that list if you wanted.

    Maybe FarFromGlorified could clear some of that up.
    Since he seems to be Free Market Guru.

    :D
    If I was to smile and I held out my hand
    If I opened it now would you not understand?
  • Dylan Stone
    Dylan Stone Posts: 1,145
    macgyver06 wrote:
    insurance companies are responsible for the false rise in health care prices its a pretend system..


    make the insurance companies illegal and the working class will have health care.

    otherwise people will continue to get super rich... and remember.. these people do not want change when they in their own..sick...tiwsted heads are living what they assume is the american dream.. but in actuality is just greed and they are still slaves.. money cant buy you out of that

    The aristocrat choir sings
    "What's the ruckus?"
    The haves have not a fucking clue
    The immenseness of suffering
    And the odd negotiation a rarity
    With onionskin plausabilty of life
    And a keyboard reaffirmation
  • DriftingByTheStorm
    DriftingByTheStorm Posts: 8,684
    GTFLYGIRL wrote:
    The aristocrat choir sings
    "What's the ruckus?"
    The haves have not a fucking clue
    The immenseness of suffering
    And the odd negotiation a rarity
    With onionskin plausabilty of life
    And a keyboard reaffirmation

    The part you are missing is:

    "I remember when you sang ... that song about today
    But now its tomorrow ... and everything has changed."

    Bottom line.
    Promise one thing, and its all a bunch of bullshit.

    The promise? "Free healthcare"
    The reality? Enslaving taxes and a sytsem that violates the free market even worse than the current system. A crippling national debt that will mushroom beyond the current insanity and totally derail this country and throw it in to the fire to burn.

    And i'm sure at that point they will have a new booige man to sell you.

    And the people will swallow it, saying "yes master, may i have some more".

    And they will get their way again, and we will get fucked again. And the people will be offered another "solution" and it will in turn fuck us again.

    and again and again and again.
    If I was to smile and I held out my hand
    If I opened it now would you not understand?
  • macgyver06
    macgyver06 Posts: 2,500
    DriftingByTheStorm wrote:
    The part you are missing is:

    "I remember when you sang ... that song about today
    But now its tomorrow ... and everything has changed."

    Bottom line.
    Promise one thing, and its all a bunch of bullshit.

    The promise? "Free healthcare"
    The reality? Enslaving taxes and a sytsem that violates the free market even worse than the current system. A crippling national debt that will mushroom beyond the current insanity and totally derail this country and throw it in to the fire to burn.

    And i'm sure at that point they will have a new booige man to sell you.

    And the people will swallow it, saying "yes master, may i have some more".

    And they will get their way again, and we will get fucked again. And the people will be offered another "solution" and it will in turn fuck us again.

    and again and again and again.

    free health care was a lost cause once they started opening walgreens with drive-thrus in them.

    eat a banana, run a mile and shut the fuck up
  • DriftingByTheStorm
    DriftingByTheStorm Posts: 8,684
    macgyver06 wrote:
    free health care was a lost cause once they started opening walgreens with drive-thrus in them.

    eat a banana, run a mile and shut the fuck up

    huh?
    I am staunchly opposed to universal health care tax.
    ?
    If I was to smile and I held out my hand
    If I opened it now would you not understand?

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