In countries with socialized medicine, is a "fat tax" fair?

RockinInCanada · July 2007

I apologize if this pisses some people off but like I stated in another thread yesterday socialized medicine will never work in the USA due to the cultural attitude of me before the group in the USA (which is directly related to capatilism system your society is based on).

It is not an insult but it is the truth (it is generalizing for sure but it is a popular attitude). If you call B/S on me just read some of the posts here and it is readily apparent. Everything is my tax dollars/my choice/my..../my.../my....

That is something I truely love about the world you know we are neighbours (USA and Canada) and we are precieved to be alike and this is a perfect example of how we are not.

When you realize in Canada when they did an entire summer program dedicated to the most popular Canadian ever a man by the name of Tommy Douglas won that by a land-slide...for those who do not him research him and right there it proves a big difference (culturally) between our fine nations.

From my point of view as someone involved with a socialized system the fear mongering some people on this board use to this system is crap. It ain't pefect but when 100% of your people get the same healthcare it is a good thing because it helps society which leads to greater things.

Jeanie · July 2007

Rockin'InCanada wrote:

No I think cigarettes are justified due to the vast amount of lying attributed to the companies that promoted them...booze whatever (its negligible IMHO)...the lotto tax in the USA is absurd (I heard 25% of your winnings are taxed...is that true?)

I go back on my vouch for the fat tax because I do agree with you that there are better methods...the first starts at home...eat meals with your children and teach good eating habits. Plus a run to the local fast food joint every once in awhile is not going to kill you.

But then again it the thread specifically states for those places with socialized medicine...therefore the arguement for it is strong and somewhat validated. But for the system in America this would not make much sense and would be strongly opposed (I hope for the tax reasons and not the craving of McDonalds' )

This one I am very conflicted about because I see the points of both sides....therefore I am going to perch myself on the fence for a bit.

I'm in Australia so I'm not sure what happens with lotto winnings in the US but I'm quite sure if it can be taxed here it is. They tax everything.
And I don't see the money raised being spent on preventative or educational progams. Well not nearly as much as is raised.

Also here in Australia it is becoming prohibitively expensive to buy fresh fruit and vegetables and meat and a whole bunch of other "healthy" foods. So I can only see a "fat tax" making life much more difficult for lower socio economic groups that traditionally spend money on cheap shitty food because that's all they can afford.

I guess for me if taxing things actually meant that the money raised was utilized to resolve the problem the item caused then I'd be for it. But I don't see that happening. I see it that it'll be just another excuse for government and big business to make a fast buck!

But then it's not like I believe that our government really gives a shit about the health of our people anyway. I'm quite sure everything they do is only motivated by the bottom line anyway. So the only reason they're even remotely interested in the obesity epidemic is because they know that in the future it's going to cost them shitloads of money. Not because they actually care about any of us.

RockinInCanada · July 2007

Jeanie wrote:

I'm in Australia so I'm not sure what happens with lotto winnings in the US but I'm quite sure if it can be taxed here it is. They tax everything.
And I don't see the money raised being spent on preventative or educational progams. Well not nearly as much as is raised.

Also here in Australia it is becoming prohibitively expensive to buy fresh fruit and vegetables and meat and a whole bunch of other "healthy" foods. So I can only see a "fat tax" making life much more difficult for lower socio economic groups that traditionally spend money on cheap shitty food because that's all they can afford.

I guess for me if taxing things actually meant that the money raised was utilized to resolve the problem the item caused then I'd be for it. But I don't see that happening. I see it that it'll be just another excuse for government and big business to make a fast buck!

But then it's not like I believe that our government really gives a shit about the health of our people anyway. I'm quite sure everything they do is only motivated by the bottom line anyway. So the only reason they're even remotely interested in the obesity epidemic is because they know that in the future it's going to cost them shitloads of money. Not because they actually care about any of us.

Question then who is really watching out for you your government or the big corporations????

It really is one or the other? Then again are either of them any good.

At least I can put a choice to those in government...

jeffbr · July 2007

Rockin'InCanada wrote:

Once again total and 100% misconception about the system

Clearly I was exaggerating. But I don't understand how one could advocate for choice on one side of an equation and advocate removal of choice from the other side.

RockinInCanada · July 2007

jeffbr wrote:

Clearly I was exaggerating. But I don't understand how one could advocate for choice on one side of an equation and advocate removal of choice from the other side.

I think the answer lies in the fact that I have grown up in the system and view it entirely differently as you have the other side...maybe one of us is completey wrong or both....like I said it is obvious cultural differences which is great....I am not trying to insult anyone....

jeffbr · July 2007

Rockin'InCanada wrote:

I apologize if this pisses some people off but like I stated in another thread yesterday socialized medicine will never work in the USA due to the cultural attitude of me before the group in the USA (which is directly related to capatilism system your society is based on).

It is not an insult but it is the truth (it is generalizing for sure but it is a popular attitude). If you call B/S on me just read some of the posts here and it is readily apparent. Everything is my tax dollars/my choice/my..../my.../my....

This doesn't piss me off. I readily admit to caring more about myself than someone I don't know in some place I've never heard of. I readily admit to caring more about my kids than someone else's kids I don't know in some place I've never heard of.

Perception is an interesting thing. You perceive people who prioritize themselves and their families as being selfish. I perceive people who demand things of others for their own benefit as being selfish.

RockinInCanada · July 2007

jeffbr wrote:

This doesn't piss me off. I readily admit to caring more about myself than someone I don't know in some place I've never heard of. I readily admit to caring more about my kids than someone else's kids I don't know in some place I've never heard of.

Perception is an interesting thing. You perceive people who prioritize themselves and their families as being selfish. I perceive people who demand things of others for their own benefit as being selfish.

I view everyone as equal and that healthcare is a need not a want.

Of course I would put my kids first BUT with a socialized system my kids are covered just as good as the neighbours kids. What the hell is shelfish about that...the system in the south is flawed because it is IMPOSSIBLE for everyone to get the 100% coverage based upon the simple premise that good jobs get good benefits there are WAY more people than good jobs so it is going to be obvious that millions are being shut-out of something they need to live and that is access to quality healthcare....now tell me how fighting for the rights of those that work hard at their low paying jobs is shelfish?

Jeanie · July 2007

Rockin'InCanada wrote:

Question then who is really watching out for you your government or the big corporations????

It really is one or the other? Then again are either of them any good.

At least I can put a choice to those in government...

Yeah, see I don't know that you actually can RiC. I mean you may think you have a choice because you vote and you can protest and lobby if you don't like what your government does, but everything these days gets down to money and power and how we can all give more of it to the upper echelons of big business. So even if you vote, chances are that's not making much of a difference anyway. Because the government does what the WEF and the World Bank and big business wants. The little people down the bottom, they just pat us on the head and let us believe that we live in a democratic society, but that's not really what's going on as far as I can see.
But I'm no politically active mental giant. I'm probably just paranoid and jaded.

RockinInCanada · July 2007

Jeanie wrote:

Yeah, see I don't know that you actually can RiC. I mean you may think you have a choice because you vote and you can protest and lobby if you don't like what your government does, but everything these days gets down to money and power and how we can all give more of it to the upper echelons of big business. So even if you vote, chances are that's not making much of a difference anyway. Because the government does what the WEF and the World Bank and big business wants. The little people down the bottom, they just pat us on the head and let us believe that we live in a democratic society, but that's not really what's going on as far as I can see.
But I'm no politically active mental giant. I'm probably just paranoid and jaded.

Hey Jeanie don't for one second dismiss the idea that I don't think just like you said.

But I remain hopeful that my choices and actions are contributing to something (or someone) in the world that will make a difference....if I lose that hope then my life is the equivalent of a long vacation where nothing matters and I choose not to live that way. Without us at the bottom they have no legs to stand on.

polaris · July 2007

i'm all for it ... there is a lot of grey area - so, that could result in a bureaucratic nightmare ...

having said that - maybe the option is to make companies more transparent instead ... if there are known carcinogens in products - they have to be clearly labelled ... things like that ...

we clearly don't spend enuf money preventing illness mainly because the pharmaceuticals and such would get mad ...

chopitdown · July 2007

jeffbr wrote:

and anyone who's BMI identifies them as obese should be denied entrance.
.

maybe thats what we should have as a fat tax. Have body comp assemssments done and anyone with a body fat %age over X amount pay more. That way people who are just craving mcdonalds don't pay more if they are healthy, but those that clearly abuse food pay more. Granted i'm sure it would never happen, but wouldn't that be a bit more fair than just taxing sugar etc?

RockinInCanada · July 2007

polaris wrote:

i'm all for it ... there is a lot of grey area - so, that could result in a bureaucratic nightmare ...

having said that - maybe the option is to make companies more transparent instead ... if there are known carcinogens in products - they have to be clearly labelled ... things like that ...

we clearly don't spend enuf money preventing illness mainly because the pharmaceuticals and such would get mad ...

Great point Polaris...some spend so much time flaming their fellow country-men and government when we should direct our attentions to those that hand out that harmful crap (which I guess are somewhat protected by the government).

Heaven forbid Big Pharm. losing profits to mask symptoms only to lead to other side affects....

polaris · July 2007

Rockin'InCanada wrote:

Great point Polaris...some spend so much time flaming their fellow country-men and government when we should direct our attentions to those that hand out that harmful crap (which I guess are somewhat protected by the government).

Heaven forbid Big Pharm. losing profits to mask symptoms only to lead to other side affects....

exactly why they are too far gone in the US to do this ... everything is mandated by corporations down there ...

anyhoo - what is the burden on our health care for people with respiratory illnesses related to smog and air pollution ... do people know going to dry cleaners is a major source of air pollutants? ... not likely ...

chopitdown · July 2007

polaris wrote:

we clearly don't spend enuf money preventing illness mainly because the pharmaceuticals and such would get mad ...

here's a good link that has some scientific basis for exercise and preventative medicine...but it's much harder to do this than pop a pill, so my guess is most would take the easy way out, which is too bad.
http://www.wellsource.com/pdf/fitnessaspreventivemedicine.pdf

it's a pdf file, but it's packed with good info

onelongsong · July 2007

if you're going to let government be in charge of our healthcare; then yes; they have to right to dictate how you live. after all; they are paying for your care. you shouldn't be allowed to smoke or drink because that increases illness which increases costs. by your own wants; government has to control spending. what a better way?

RockinInCanada · July 2007

polaris wrote:

exactly why they are too far gone in the US to do this ... everything is mandated by corporations down there ...

quote]

Agree 100% again.....

RockinInCanada · July 2007

onelongsong wrote:

if you're going to let government be in charge of our healthcare; then yes; they have to right to dictate how you live. after all; they are paying for your care. you shouldn't be allowed to smoke or drink because that increases illness which increases costs. by your own wants; government has to control spending. what a better way?

Booze and cigarettes are taxed (mildly at that) therefore you make some change from people indulging in these activities....don't need to make them illegal...

Jeanie · July 2007

Rockin'InCanada wrote:

Hey Jeanie don't for one second dismiss the idea that I don't think just like you said.

But I remain hopeful that my choices and actions are contributing to something (or someone) in the world that will make a difference....if I lose that hope then my life is the equivalent of a long vacation where nothing matters and I choose not to live that way. Without us at the bottom they have no legs to stand on.

I agree!

It does all just get so bloody tiresome though!

These issues that we are facing in the world today, they really shouldn't be happening in my opinion. We're smart enough, we're wealthy enough, there's enough to go around.
I suppose because I'm still too bloody idealistic and won't be happy till there's a eutopia for all, I get pretty disenchanted with all the bullshit that goes on.

Just wish that these problems could be solved without "blaming" and "finger pointing" and that governments truly were concerned with the welfare of their citizens, the people who elect them, and not because there's money or power in it, but because it's the right thing to do.

polaris · July 2007

chopitdown wrote:

here's a good link that has some scientific basis for exercise and preventative medicine...but it's much harder to do this than pop a pill, so my guess is most would take the easy way out, which is too bad.
http://www.wellsource.com/pdf/fitnessaspreventivemedicine.pdf

it's a pdf file, but it's packed with good info

absolutely ... i know there are many who hate gov't interference and regulations ... but if we're gonna make people accountable - we should also make corporations and businesses as well ...

why spend so much money on cancer treatment drugs and nothing on removing carcinogens and toxins in the environment or getting people to eat healthier ...

onelongsong · July 2007

Rockin'InCanada wrote:

polaris wrote:

exactly why they are too far gone in the US to do this ... everything is mandated by corporations down there ...

quote]

Agree 100% again.....

americans have freedoms. we have the right to do with our bodies as we choose. the government cannot protect us from ourselves. right or wrong; that's how it is. many states don't tax food at all. but it still comes down to: "live in my house and live by my rules". when you invite government into your personal life; you give them the right to dictate the rules concerning what they are paying for. maybe it hasn't been put in those words yet; but legally; that's what it comes down to.

In countries with socialized medicine, is a "fat tax" fair?

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