I Don't Understand the Mentality of Movin Train Posters re: Pope comments

rationalthought wrote:

Israel has been facing this same exact situation for years. Whenever the Palestinians don't get exactly what they want, they riot. They kidnap. They murder. They make threats of Death to Israel, Death to Jews. And, this board has defended their actions for years.

Now, that they have directed their aggression at the Pope (it was only a matter of time before Christianity got involved), the Board takes the opposite view that they are acting ridiculously.

Because these instances aren't necessarily comparable, unless you hold a specific view about the middle eastern conflict?

Your asessment of the palestinians is very much arguable, and I will add to it my own questionmark behind which palestinians you refer to. The leadership of both sides have a lot of skeletons in their respective closets, and switch back and forth between who prolongs the conflict this time.

In any case, I do not see the parallell to another "moral outrage" by some muslim groups based on some unfortunate comments made by the pope. By the way, "the muslim world" is not in anoutrage about this, there are groups and some demonstrations that protest and demand an apology. And some fringe wackos calling for his death.

Actually, the common denominator between these instances is how a small group ruin it for everyone else.

To sum up, your presentation of Israel-Palestine conflict is very biased, and a lot of the people on here don't see it that way. Neither do I, unless you direct just as much criticism towards the other side as well. And most on here think the pope fumbled his statements, but it's pretty harsh to demand his death for that. (which is called for by some extremist groups and imams)

It really ain't that hard to understand.

Peace
Dan

jlew24asu wrote:

since when has Israel kidnapped anyone? do you mean imprisioning militants and would be suicide bombers?

no

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=107&ItemID=10838

'Israel has been kidnapping Lebanese for years, a hefty chunk of the 10,000 or so rotting in horrifying Israeli prisons, like the secret Facility 1391 in central Israel, worse than Camp X-Ray in Guantanamo. On June 25 Corporal Gilad Shalit was kidnapped in Gaza, prompting an escalation in Israel's already barbaric assaults on the civilian population there. Since June 25, says the Palestinian Ministry of Detainees, Israel has kidnapped over 35 Palestinian Parliament Members and 10 cabinet Ministers. It was certainly hard to find in any US paper or newscast any reference to the fact that one day before, on 24 June, Israeli forces kidnapped two civilians in Gaza, a doctor and his brother, and sent them off to some Israeli dungeon. As Noam Chomsky remarked to an interviewer from al-Ahram, "The timing alone reveals with vivid clarity that the show of outrage over the capture of Israeli soldiers is cynical fraud, and undermines any shreds of moral legitimacy for the ensuing actions."

El_Kabong wrote:

maybe it was b/c sharon 'visited' the temple mount w/ over a thousand armed men during a holy day in islam?

Hey, what's the big deal? In the Middle East, holy days in Islam have become a reason to step up violent attacks. Par for the course ...

reborncareerist wrote:

Hey, what's the big deal? In the Middle East, holy days in Islam have become a reason to step up violent attacks. Par for the course ...

so you honestly see nothing wrong w/ sending in a thousand men dressed in riot gear during a day of prayers at the 3rd holiest site in their religion?

jsand wrote:

Oh yeah, that definitely justifies all the suicide bombings and murdering of Israeli children. Third holiest site my ass.

did i say it justifed anything? no, i simply pointed out how something like that could create an extreme reaction, seems like a provocation to me. he could've waited until it was all over to go investigate the vandalism claims w/ his thousand men in riot gear

anyway, israel kills something like 5 palesitinian kids for every 1 israeli child killed by a suicide bomber.

jsand wrote:

Oh please. Keep spitting out numbers. Did you ever stop and think about the fact that Palestinian terrorists deliberately surround themselves with children (Hezbollah learned from them pretty well). And do Palestinians really give a shit about their children? I don't think a mother loves her child when she happily sends him off on a "martyrdom" mission. It's not like there's one isolated incident.

so the suicide bombers take their kids? is it like a field trip? both sides are doing wrong, it's a shame you can only see 1/2 that while the other is hoisted upon a valliant white horse

jsand wrote:

How ridiculously hypocritical. This coming from the guy who posts stories about some mysterious Israeli weapon. Oh wait, there's no evidence whatsoever to support it, but I'll post it anyway. Anything to paint Israelis as monsters.

And don't distort my words. I never said suicide bombers take their kids - especially since most of them are really young. That's just good economics by Palestinian parents. Why waste money on raising a kid to adulthood when you can send him (or her) out as a suicide bomber?

you have issues, i know you don't like the stats b/c it shows such a wiiiiiiide gap in who dies, who has their homes bulldozed to make way for more illegal settlements.

both sides are filled w/ hate. there are palestinian clerics calling for all israelis to die, there are israeli rabbi's calling for a final solution and the death of all male palestinians. there is brainwashing of palestinians and brainwashing of israelis...all to further the cycle of hate. try stepping out of that circle sometime and see it's not a 1-way street

El_Kabong wrote:

you have issues, i know you don't like the stats b/c it shows such a wiiiiiiide gap in who dies, who has their homes bulldozed to make way for more illegal settlements.

both sides are filled w/ hate. there are palestinian clerics calling for all israelis to die, there are israeli rabbi's calling for a final solution and the death of all male palestinians. there is brainwashing of palestinians and brainwashing of israelis...all to further the cycle of hate. try stepping out of that circle sometime and see it's not a 1-way street

I agree that both sides are at fault here and just fueling the hatred..but as far as the #'s go. I would be just as critical of one side's #'s as you usually are the other's.

Case in point...Hezbollah's lies about Qana #'s. They're all full of shit and trying to win a PR game.

jsand wrote:

I have issues? Ok - keep peddling the blood libels. Enjoy the fabricated stories of the evil Israeli weapons that eat away at the Palestians' organs.

Please show me an example (statements, perhaps) of rabbis calling for a final solution and death to all male Palestinians.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1270038.stm

Rabbi calls for annihilation of Arabs

The spiritual leader of Israel's ultra-orthodox Shas party, Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, has provoked outrage with a sermon calling for the annihilation of Arabs.
"It is forbidden to be merciful to them. You must send missiles to them and annihilate them. They are evil and damnable," he was quoted as saying in a sermon delivered on Monday to mark the Jewish festival of Passover.

Rabbi Yosef is one of the most powerful religious figures in Israel, He is known for his outspoken comments and has in the past referred to the Arabs as "vipers".

Through his influence over Shas, Israel's third largest political party, he is also a significant political figure.

As founder and spiritual leader of the political party Shas, Rabbi Yosef is held in almost saintly regard by hundreds of thousands of Jews of Middle Eastern and North African origin.

The Palestinian Authority has condemned the sermon as racist and is calling on international organisations to treat the rabbi as a war criminal.

'Arab terrorists'

Rabbi Yosef said in his sermon that enemies have tried to hurt the Jewish people from the time of the exodus from Egypt to this day.

"The Lord shall return the Arabs' deeds on their own heads, waste their seed and exterminate them, devastate them and vanish them from this world," he said.

Shas spokesman, Yitzhaq Suderi defended the rabbi, saying his remarks referred only to "Arab murderers and terrorists" and not the Arab people as a whole.

'Stirring up hatred'

Palestinian cabinet minister Hassan Asfur urged international civil institutions and human rights organisations to consider Rabbi Yosef a war criminal in future.

The utterances were "a clear call for murder and a political an intellectual terrorism that will lead to military terrorism", he said in remarks reported on Palestinian radio.

He added that no punishment would come from Israel "because its political culture and action are in line with [the rabbi's] racist statements".

Israeli Justice Minister Meir Sheetrit also condemned the sermon, saying: "A person of Rabbi Ovadia Yosef's stature must refrain from acrid remarks such as these."

And he added: "I suggest that we not learn from the ways of the Palestinians and speak in verbal blows like these."

Salah Tarif, the only Arab cabinet minister in the Israeli government, also criticized Rabbi Yosef, saying "his remarks add nothing but hatred".

---

http://www.rense.com/general47/etn.htm

Israeli Official Proposes
Palestinian 'Ethnic Cleansing'
Calls For 'Final Solution' Of The Palestinians
By Khalid Amayreh in the West Bank

A member of the Likud party has proposed "massive ethnic cleansing" of non-Jews in Palestine-Israel as a "final solution" of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict.

Uzi Cohen, a member of Ariel Sharon's right-wing party and a deputy mayor of the town of Raanana, told Israeli public radio on Sunday there was widespread support in Israel for "the idea of ethnic cleansing".

"Many people support the idea but few are willing to speak about it publicly."

Cohen, an influential figure in Likud, proposed that Israel, the United States, the European Union as well as oil-rich Arab states make concerted efforts to create a Palestinian state in northern Jordan.

He suggested the Hashimi royal family in Amman "might view favorably this idea".

Cohen said Palestinians should be given 20 years to "leave voluntarily".

"In case they don't leave, plans would have to be drawn up to expel them by force."

'Israel's ugly face'

Cohen's racist ideas have drawn strong reactions from Palestinian leaders in Israel. Israeli Arab Knesset member Ahmad Taibi described Cohen as representing "Israel's ugly face".

"This man espouses Jewish fascism and he is trying to foster his venomous ideas, and I must say he is achieving remarkable success," Taibi told Aljazeera.net.

"The idea of ethnic cleansing is no longer confined to the far-right parties in Israel; many in the Likud support ethnic cleansing."

Taibi said tabling a racist proposal for discussion is in itself a grave development.

"It is not important what the result will be. The important thing is that they are going to dignify a fascist proposal like this by discussing it in a formal meeting."

Demographic threat

Israeli leaders have lately been warning of an "encroaching Palestinian demographic threat".

On Friday, a leading Jewish demographer warned Jews were on the verge of becoming a minority in mandatory Palestine, the historic region administered by Britain until late 1947 from the River Jordan to the Mediterranean.

Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has so far been circumspect about the idea of banishing the Palestinians from their ancestral land.

Last year, when members of his Likud party approached him with the idea, Sharon reportedly told them "the international situation wouldn't be conducive to expelling the Palestinians".

In 1948, the newly-born Jewish state expelled the bulk of the Palestinian population from what is now Israel and destroyed more than 460 Arab towns and villages.

Israel has consistently refused to allow the repatriation of the refugees, arguing that allowing some or all of them back to their homes, many of which no longer exist, would undermine the "Jewish identity" of Israel