I'd go just to view the people ...

small town beck · May 2007

angelica wrote:

Ever heard of the famed Madame Tussauds Wax Museum? Not only can we see our fave actors and actors immortalized in.... wax.... but we can also gleefully delight in wax conceptions of Britney Spears, Madonna and Beyonce! Sounds scientific, huh....er, at least...uh, historic maybe?

See my point? ...... people can, for the most part, differentiate between science and religion. People can be trusted to discern for themselves. They won't be "hoodwinked" unless they already believe this stuff.

So uhmmm was that not really Brad Pitt's ass I grabbed :eek:

I agree with what you said not my cup of tea but whatever floats your boat. I do find it odd though I have an uncle who I consider quite religious( I am NOT

) and he would never hesitate to tell me I am wrong yet I don't think he is wrong per se or would never say "your beliefs are wrong".. who would I be to say that??? Not what I believe but your beliefs are the one thing you truly own.

RolandTD20Kdrummer · May 2007

"Its inspiration is the Bible — the literal interpretation that contends God created the heavens and the earth and everything in them just a few thousand years ago."

" 'If the Bible is the word of God, and its history really is true, that’s our presupposition or axiom, and we are starting there,” museum founder Ken Ham said during recent tour of the sleek and modern facility' "

"Ham said he believes most fossils are the result of the Great Flood described in Genesis."

“Americans just aren’t gullible enough to believe that they came from a fish,” he said.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14122311/

anyone that believes the earth is only a few thousand years old is a stone cold lunatic...

angelica · May 2007

Purple Hawk wrote:

it's always easier to assume that others with a different perspective are whack jobs (not that I'VE ever been guilty of that, of course!) than to understand the perspective itself.

we all have the right to impose our opinions on their (people we disagree with) beliefs, and there's nothing wrong with calling out views we disagree with. gotta get down into the issues, and that's not an easy process...before you can really understand where all sides are coming from...or even understand your own view.

either way...way to derail a pointless thread into a meaningful discussion

...that darn gue...stirring up meaning and value in this discussion....

I, personally, do not have the right to impose my views on others. I have the right to have my view, and to share my view, even if I'm sharing a view of what another does. But if I am being psychologically sound and honest, I must own that it is my view. If I were to impose my view on another, analyzing and telling them what they "are" doing, or what beliefs they "should" hold, I would be infringing on them. It is this base fact of psychology that has 98% of the population tied up with one another, rather than being psychologically indivual and "whole". I'm not making this up, either.

angelica · May 2007

small town beck wrote:

So uhmmm was that not really Brad Pitt's ass I grabbed :eek:

I agree with what you said not my cup of tea but whatever floats your boat. I do find it odd though I have an uncle who I consider quite religious( I am NOT ) and he would never hesitate to tell me I am wrong yet I don't think he is wrong per se or would never say "your beliefs are wrong".. who would I be to say that??? Not what I believe but your beliefs are the one thing you truly own.

I spent many years telling people they were wrong, and it sure didn't work for me. It actually ensured a lot of conflict for me! I've come to totally agree with your perspective here: "who would I be to say that???" in regards to someone's view being wrong. I do get opinionated, and I do think others are "wrong" a lot.

Ultimately, the only safe bet for me is to present what I see. That way I know I'm being accurate, 'cause I can speak for myself and my view.

Purple Hawk · May 2007

angelica wrote:

...that darn gue...stirring up meaning and value in this discussion....

I, personally, do not have the right to impose my views on others. I have the right to have my view, and to share my view, even if I'm sharing a view of what another does. But if I am being psychologically sound and honest, I must own that it is my view. If I were to impose my view on another, analyzing and telling them what they "are" doing, or what beliefs they "should" hold, I would be infringing on them. It is this base fact of psychology that has 98% of the population tied up with one another, rather than being psychologically indivual and "whole". I'm not making this up, either.

well...gue is obviously a wing nut

, but there are a number of views held by credible people I disagree with...i don't view it as "imposing" anything...it's more of differentiating right and wrong. granted, that perspective varies, but i think all of us, regardless of background, can agree on certain core principles...and agreeing on those is not imposing anything, it's recognizing what we think is right, i think we all have a common grasp of what is right and wrong...that is the most basic of human concepts. it's where we go from there.

angelica · May 2007

Purple Hawk wrote:

well...gue is obviously a wing nut , but there are a number of views held by credible people I disagree with...i don't view it as "imposing" anything...it's more of differentiating right and wrong. granted, that perspective varies, but i think all of us, regardless of background, can agree on certain core principles...and agreeing on those is not imposing anything, it's recognizing what we think is right, i think we all have a common grasp of what is right and wrong...that is the most basic of human concepts. it's where we go from there.

Disagreeing is valid, imo. The idea is that there are two different views, and they are at odds with each other. It's when we are infringing in our disagreement that I take issue with.

If you see that people agree on core principles, I disagree!

If we did agree on those core principles, that would not be infringing. But when we believe our core principles are "right" and try telling another they are "wrong" for their core principles when we disagree, I say we've overstepped our bounds. And we get payback when we infringe--we create disharmony and will incur the consequences. It's not a crime, and as I say, basically everyone does it. If we're sensitive to it, we can always adjust, and get our balance back and learn. But, at base, these consequences are very real. We pay the price for less than ideal behaviours. Evolutionarily speaking, it would be great if we were in synch with that feedback. Unfortunately, us masses have ourselves numbed out by the external world and our TVs and gadgets, etc, that we're really out of touch and are not learning so much.

RolandTD20Kdrummer · May 2007

anyone that completely tosses science out the window (as in this case) is in for a pretty serious reality crash one day...

maybe that's what Prozac is for...

Any way to make a buck off people I suppose.

small town beck · May 2007

angelica wrote:

I spent many years telling people they were wrong, and it sure didn't work for me. It actually ensured a lot of conflict for me! I've come to totally agree with your perspective here: "who would I be to say that???" in regards to someone's view being wrong. I do get opinionated, and I do think others are "wrong" a lot. Ultimately, the only safe bet for me is to present what I see. That way I know I'm being accurate, 'cause I can speak for myself and my view.

Just to be clear I still haven't lost my passion for a good argument

And I have been told I hate to be wrong... I believe the term my good friend used was "a know it all" and sure if I know I am right I do NOT back down but if I am wrong I will admit it. usually

Thank goodness that doesn't happen often

I am still trying to figure out whose ass that was??

.

Abookamongstthemany · May 2007

angelica wrote:

I spent many years telling people they were wrong, and it sure didn't work for me. It actually ensured a lot of conflict for me! I've come to totally agree with your perspective here: "who would I be to say that???" in regards to someone's view being wrong. I do get opinionated, and I do think others are "wrong" a lot. Ultimately, the only safe bet for me is to present what I see. That way I know I'm being accurate, 'cause I can speak for myself and my view.

Same here...I am so tired of telling people they are wrong. What does it accomplish number one and number two...everyone thinks they are right, so how is my 'right' any better than their 'right'? All I can do is accept that people see things very differently and speak of my own truth...speak of what matters to me and hope it resonates with others. This board is living proof that shouting out how wrong the other guy is just a waste of time and energy. We've been posting here for years and how many people have really changed their stances? Nothing ever changes that way...people just shut you out. If you focus on the positives of what you believe, it will gain support and people will more readily flow towards your point of view.

NMyTree · May 2007

Rumor has it Adam ate Eve long before the apple was bitten.

Vegetarians my ass!

Purple Hawk · May 2007

angelica wrote:

Disagreeing is valid, imo. The idea is that there are two different views, and they are at odds with each other. It's when we are infringing in our disagreement that I take issue with.

If you see that people agree on core principles, I disagree!

then we will have to agree to disagree..even though i hate cliches...

i think you can agree on core principles, but disagree on how to get there. you can disagree on which "side" espouses your own core principles, even though both sides have the same goal in mind.

way i see it...almost everyone agrees on individual freedoms...it's about how to achieve that goal is where we disagree. and maybe the motives of the other side... we cynically view the other side as the enemy...if we "impose" our views, i.e. express them, maybe that's a start to communication.

gue_barium · May 2007

angelica wrote:

If you remember the infamous Einstein article* from the other day, we're all attributing arbitrary value to everything. It's all dependent on our worldviews. Again, it's about how humans process information, and our "signifiers" that represent what IS real. The signifiers aren't what is real. They are all arbitrary, due to what we are predisposed to comprehend.

I, for some reason, happen to understand all points of religious view, and how they all stem from the exact same basic principles, and are sculped and molded by our different psychological and cultural views. I totally support even the fundamental Christian view. Their idea of reality is different than, say, a scientist's. Each one is perceiving reality. This illusion that science is any less manmade, in my opinion, is the big hoax here. I say this with complete and utmost seriousness.

*http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3671/is_200310/ai_n9308281

I asked a simple question.
Children's stories are children's stories, I think. You're bringing all sorts of other things into this. Are children's stories not indeed children's stories? That's a pretty basic question.

angelica · May 2007

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

anyone that completely tosses science out the window (as in this case) is in for a pretty serious reality crash one day...

maybe that's what Prozac is for...

Any way to make a buck off people I suppose.

It was the opposite for me. I needed medication and all kinds of help when I was detached of my deep center, being my potential--my spiritual Presence.

People's beliefs are valid if they serve people. Most people use religion because it serves them. For those, like many on this board, who grow past that, great. You don't spontaneously combust doing so, apparently. What's the harm? It's actually religious people who get medical benefits of living longer and feeling quality of life rewards from religion, rather than the consequences of cynicism.

When I was a child and started growing out of magical thinking, I didn't crumble in pain. Some people, in perfect synch with nature, will live out their lives leaning towards magical thinking. It's okay when we can get over our own feelings about it.

angelica · May 2007

gue_barium wrote:

I asked a simple question.
Children's stories are children's stories, I think. You're bringing all sorts of other things into this. Are children's stories not indeed children's stories? That's a pretty basic question.

I'm saying all of our "stories" we use to describe life are just that. If you are referring to the idea of "magical thinking", it's not just children who share in that developmental phase. Also many new age people share that...and fundamentalists of any kind, obviously, and tribal peoples...

Whatever narratives we use are just that. Our society dramatically approves of science as the acceptable stories to use. And we don't realize we're as biased as a society who relies mostly on religion. I guess that's bias for you.

gue_barium · May 2007

angelica wrote:

I'm saying all of our "stories" we use to describe life are just that. If you are referring to the idea of "magical thinking", it's not just children who share in that developmental phase. Also many new age people share that...and fundamentalists of any kind, obviously, and tribal peoples...

Whatever narratives we use are just that. Our society dramatically approves of science as the acceptable stories to use. And we don't realize we're as biased as a society who relies mostly on religion. I guess that's bias for you.

So, in your understanding of Christianity, you don't see a childish aspect to this sort of teaching?

angelica · May 2007

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

Same here...I am so tired of telling people they are wrong. What does it accomplish number one and number two...everyone thinks they are right, so how is my 'right' any better than their 'right'? All I can do is accept that people see things very differently and speak of my own truth...speak of what matters to me and hope it resonates with others. This board is living proof that shouting out how wrong the other guy is just a waste of time and energy. We've been posting here for years and how many people have really changed their stances? Nothing ever changes that way...people just shut you out. If you focus on the positives of what you believe, it will gain support and people will more readily flow towards your point of view.

I completely agree. The amazing thing about people resonating with each other or not is that is the real natural selection stuff. When we're in touch with our own vision, and living that, we naturally attract like-minded individuals who tend to include all the differences needed to inspire our growth, too. It's so natural and works so nicely. I especially get amazed on boards like this, where I see how I gravitate to certain people who resonate with me, including one's with opposite opinions. It pays to focus on what we DO want to create.

RolandTD20Kdrummer · May 2007

angelica wrote:

It was the opposite for me. I needed medication and all kinds of help when I was detached of my deep center, being my potential--my spiritual Presence.

People's beliefs are valid if they serve people. Most people use religion because it serves them. For those, like many on this board, who grow past that, great. You don't spontaneously combust doing so, apparently. What's the harm? It's actually religious people who get medical benefits of living longer and feeling quality of life rewards from religion, rather than the consequences of cynicism.

When I was a child and started growing out of magical thinking, I didn't crumble in pain. Some people, in perfect synch with nature, will live out their lives leaning towards magical thinking. It's okay when we can get over our own feelings about it.

I feel ok that there's no heaven or hell. I am quite happy and don't feel it will shorten my life by having any grief over it. For those that go haywire thinking there's no heaven and that they will actually die one day...or they will suffer eternally in hell unless they jump through hoops and made to feel guilty about being human all their lives...oh well... ignorance can definitely be bliss in many circumstances. Religion is extremely flawed in that it is very unaccepting of others that differ from the "chosen" word or "true god". I believe the notion of it it has arisen merely out of the human condition of being sentient...which would definitely explain all the different flavors and glaring contradictions between them all across different races and countries etc... obvious cause and effect.

angelica · May 2007

gue_barium wrote:

So, in your understanding of Christianity, you don't see a childish aspect to this sort of teaching?

You think these are simple questions. But, in my own integration, a HUGE aspect (and apparently huge in much psychological healing stuff) is integrating the inner child. And I've done this for a longgg time.

So when you say "childish" you hook all kinds of wonderful feelings about my inner potential. Much of our unconscious self is not rational, but is rather all kinds of childish impulses. These impulses are also our very base, honest, and artistic and creative impulses. They are literally our potential, before our parents warped this potential by teaching us to be "reasonable".

In working on integrating these impulses, I've had to let go of logical "judgments" of them that our parents laid on us, that were...well...crap. That our true base nature is foolish, and that imagination is "imaginary" and false. And that we should be "realistic".

What I'm saying is if you mean do I see these stories as having a holistic, poetic reality that resonates with my inner child, yes. Do I logically believe them....no. But keep in mind that it's my inner child/potential/essense that I align with--my more base energy. And this energy uses logic as a tool, not as a game plan. This energy uses vibrant and creative power and potential as it's game plan.

angelica · May 2007

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

I feel ok that there's no heaven or hell. I am quite happy and don't feel it will shorten my life by having any grief over it. For those that go haywire thinking there's no heaven and that they will actually die one day...or they will suffer eternally in hell unless they jump through hoops and made to feel guilty about being human all their lives...oh well... ignorance can definitely be bliss in many circumstances. Religion is extremely flawed in that it is very unaccepting of others that differ from the "chosen" word or "true god". I believe the notion of it it has arisen merely out of the human condition of being sentient...which would definitely explain all the different flavors and glaring contradictions between them all across different races and countries etc... obvious cause and effect.

Do you think your ideas about this phenomena, that I've bolded, actually reflects what this phenomena is in the experience of those who are living it?

gue_barium · May 2007

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

I feel ok that there's no heaven or hell. I am quite happy and don't feel it will shorten my life by having any grief over it. For those that go haywire thinking there's no heaven and that they will actually die one day...or they will suffer eternally in hell unless they jump through hoops and made to feel guilty about being human all their lives...oh well... ignorance can definitely be bliss in many circumstances. Religion is extremely flawed in that it is very unaccepting of others that differ from the "chosen" word or "true god". I believe the notion of it it has arisen merely out of the human condition of being sentient...which would definitely explain all the different flavors and glaring contradictions between them all across different races and countries etc... obvious cause and effect.

I don't think 'religion' is the problem per se'. I think it is the teaching of lies as truth that is harmful. I have no problem with the great human history of storytelling, even in the Biblical context, but at some point in time the teacher/parent has got to let on to the child that it is only storytelling.

I'd go just to view the people ...

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