'I' am not consciousness

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Comments

  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    angelica wrote:
    Right, so in order to see it, you require the inner equipment that sees, correct? Are you overlooking the inner equipment when being so-called "objective"? Like seeing what is seen requires the inner ability to see, before the act can take place, to learn, one needs the inner equipment that learns. When the inner and outer come together at once, whether in seeing or learning, then the act takes place.

    Ok, but what difference is made?
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    What do you see when you think of 'you'?
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    farfromglorified wrote:
    GAH!!! Do you not see the contradiction here?????

    The situation above has never occurred to you, yet you obviously have a thought on it.

    No. I'm sorry FFG. I don't see a contradiction.

    Would you like me to explain the causes of me having the thought?
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    What do you see when you think of 'you'?

    I see a lot of different things. Everything that makes a human being.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    Ahnimus wrote:
    No. I'm sorry FFG. I don't see a contradiction.

    Would you like me to explain the causes of me having the thought?

    The cause of you having the thought is your reaction to an idea inconsistent with your beliefs. You manifested the contradiction between the two by simply merging them together. In other words, you didn't apply reason to your response.

    But you still owe me an answer, Ahniums:

    Do you believe determinsm is truth?
  • baraka
    baraka Posts: 1,268
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Neuroscientists say that we will be able to measure qualia. It's a little premature to claim that we can never measure it.

    That would be quite impressive, indeed! ;)
    Ahnimus wrote:
    I don't see where qualia is going as an argument though. I'm sorry, I just don't get how that is a major issue.

    I thought I presented it pretty clear in my post, I am tired so perhaps not. Take away qualia, and we wouldn't be able to have these discussions. Maybe we operate with different definitions of what qualia is, but what I'm talking about is the raw experience that our consciousness has to have in order to be conscious. It comes before consciousness. A computer can store information, but for it to be conscious it needs some sort of experience. The experience itself doesn't necessary have any influence on anything, but it's there and doesn't turn into an illusion just because we find it handy. Anyway, I'm ready for an altered state of consciousness, so I'm off to bed. ;)
    The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
    but the illusion of knowledge.
    ~Daniel Boorstin

    Only a life lived for others is worth living.
    ~Albert Einstein
  • angelica
    angelica Posts: 6,038
    Ahnimus wrote:
    No. I'm sorry FFG. I don't see a contradiction.

    Would you like me to explain the causes of me having the thought?
    Do you realize, Ahnimus, you are learning here, all about observations, and the ball rolling down the hill, using reasoning, having your understanding being "educed" and the fact is, there is no objective ball rolling down the hill for you to observe? Rather, your potential is unfolding and being educed in learning situations as we speak.

    You said: "I'm just saying I would never think "The ball rolls..." if I hadn't ever seen it occur"....And the truth, Ahnimus is you ARE LITERALLY THINKING "the ball rolls", without seeing it occur! Your own words prove you are thinking that.
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • angelica
    angelica Posts: 6,038
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Ok, but what difference is made?
    What do you mean?
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    angelica wrote:
    Do you realize, Ahnimus, you are learning here, all about observations, and the ball rolling down the hill, using reasoning, having your understanding being "educed" and the fact is, there is no objective ball rolling down the hill for you to observe? Rather, your potential is unfolding and being educed in learning situations as we speak.

    You said: "I'm just saying I would never think "The ball rolls..." if I hadn't ever seen it occur"....And the truth, Ahnimus is you ARE LITERALLY THINKING "the ball rolls", without seeing it occur! Your own words prove you are thinking that.

    lol, but I have seen balls roll and I've seen balls and gravity at work. So I'm not just making it up.

    If you think such a thing is possible, then I challenge you to invent a colour. I'd be especially impressed if you could invent a colour that cannot be made from red, green and blue
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    Ahnimus wrote:
    I see a lot of different things. Everything that makes a human being.

    You are not your physical attributes.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • angelica
    angelica Posts: 6,038
    Ahnimus wrote:
    lol, but I have seen balls roll and I've seen balls and gravity at work. So I'm not just making it up.

    If you think such a thing is possible, then I challenge you to invent a colour. I'd be especially impressed if you could invent a colour that cannot be made from red, green and blue
    Okay, scratch that one.

    in the act of learning, you do not have learning, until there is the joining of both parts: what is learned and the processes that are learning. do you agree?
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    Ahnimus wrote:
    lol, but I have seen balls roll and I've seen balls and gravity at work. So I'm not just making it up.

    If you think such a thing is possible, then I challenge you to invent a colour. I'd be especially impressed if you could invent a colour that cannot be made from red, green and blue

    Ok...I've invented the color farfromglorified, at 100 nanometers.
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    You are not your physical attributes.

    Why not?
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    angelica wrote:
    Okay, scratch that one.

    in the act of learning, you do not have learning, until there is the joining of both parts: what is learned and the processes that are learning. do you agree?

    Right. I can't learn about a black cat unless there is a black cat to learn about and I have the ability to learn about it.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • angelica
    angelica Posts: 6,038
    Further, Ahnimus, can you have an act of learning, if you do not have a potential to learn, in any given instance, not cumulatively speaking? Let's say we can take something to be learned and the learner and put them in a vacuum. Can the act of "education" or "knowing" take place with the start, being merely the existence of the object to be learned about? Or do we need equally what is to be learned and the potential for learning to take place?
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Right. I can't learn about a black cat unless there is a black cat to learn about and I have the ability to learn about it.

    Ugh....I can't take this anymore. Would you say the same thing above about the Loch Ness Monster?
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Why not?

    Because what is a body without you creating it's reality?
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Why not?

    your body is just a vessel. everything that matters is inside.
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    farfromglorified wrote:
    Ok...I've invented the color farfromglorified, at 100 nanometers.

    What does the colour look like?

    This isn't a thought experiment where you don't have to actually think about it. You cannot think of a colour that is not made up of red, green and blue. That is a fact because your brain can only understand red, green and blue. You only have photoreceptors of red, green and blue. It may seem odd, but even yellow is a combination of pure red and pure green. You simply cannot think of a colour that does not consist of red, green and/or blue. It's impossible. You cannot invent something entirely new. You can think of a 5-legged creature, because you've seen creatures and legs, but you can't genuinely think of something entirely new.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    angelica wrote:
    Further, Ahnimus, can you have an act of learning, if you do not have a potential to learn, in any given instance, not cumulatively speaking? Let's say we can take something to be learned and the learner and put them in a vacuum. Can the act of "education" or "knowing" take place with the start, being merely the existence of the object to be learned about? Or do we need equally what is to be learned and the potential for learning to take place?

    I guess so. I don't know where this is going so I'm having a hard time choosing to allocate time to it. Can you try to get to the point Angelica?
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire

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