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  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    tooferz wrote:
    it works for guys too ;)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kegel_exercise

    ill check it out when i get home, lest people at school start to think wierdly of me. in the meantine, does that give tips for how to broach the subject with a gf?
  • genie
    genie Posts: 2,222
    angelica wrote:
    That and because young girls are pliable and manipulatable as they've not yet had the chance to develop discernment skills. And because grown women can be scary and too challenging to people with serious issues pertaining to women and relationships.

    totally agree :)

    older men who like to control......
  • tooferz
    tooferz Posts: 135
    soulsinging wrote:
    ill check it out when i get home, lest people at school start to think wierdly of me.
    aww man..no guts no glory.
    soulsinging wrote:
    in the meantine, does that give tips for how to broach the subject with a gf?
    uh tell her doing that during sex makes it feel more intense? don't know really. my gyno told me after i had 9 n 10 lb babies.
  • OutOfBreath
    OutOfBreath Posts: 1,804
    You know, not that I am a fan of objectivization, and having bad rolemodels for children and so on. But, bear with me here, these things tend to be blown out of all proportions, and are very quick to be drawn into a moral panic kind of situation. People often assume that what they see in the news is what's going on. What you see in the news is the most sensationalized and extreme angles and cases, because those are the ones that are "interesting" and news-worthy.

    Another part of it is the good old "kids nowadays are going straight to hell. In my day...." which has been sported about by anyone over the age of 30 since Socrates.

    As for girls having more sex and enjoying it and so forth. Good. That evens out the playing field, and makes them catch up to what the guys have been openly doing for decades. Doesn't make them no-good sluts, that makes them humans with a sex-drive (as most humans have incidentally). Sex is a more acceptable topic these days as well, and I dont necessarily think that's a bad thing.

    Now I wouldn't like having Paris or Britney or the like as role-models for my kids, but it is also possible to over-estimate to what degree they actually are. They are in the media and you read about them everywhere, sure. That does not equate that everyone wants to be like them. Maybe younger kids are more impressionable, sure, but they grow up too, and often realize that they were pretty stupid back then.

    So in conclusion, I do agree somewhat with what you all are saying here, BUT I feel these things tend to lose all proportions, and it allows us to attribute alot of our problems to the fuzzy "media" or the like. Remember when reading those news, they are sensationalized, and thus hardly representative or indicative of anything other than being a extreme(ly) juicy single case.

    And finally: "Monkey see" does not at all equal "monkey do".

    *End of sociologist's rant*

    Peace
    Dan
    "YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death

    "Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
  • angelica
    angelica Posts: 6,038
    OutOfBreath wrote:
    You know, not that I am a fan of objectivization, and having bad rolemodels for children and so on. But, bear with me here, these things tend to be blown out of all proportions, and are very quick to be drawn into a moral panic kind of situation. People often assume that what they see in the news is what's going on. What you see in the news is the most sensationalized and extreme angles and cases, because those are the ones that are "interesting" and news-worthy.

    Another part of it is the good old "kids nowadays are going straight to hell. In my day...." which has been sported about by anyone over the age of 30 since Socrates.

    As for girls having more sex and enjoying it and so forth. Good. That evens out the playing field, and makes them catch up to what the guys have been openly doing for decades. Doesn't make them no-good sluts, that makes them humans with a sex-drive (as most humans have incidentally). Sex is a more acceptable topic these days as well, and I dont necessarily think that's a bad thing.

    Now I wouldn't like having Paris or Britney or the like as role-models for my kids, but it is also possible to over-estimate to what degree they actually are. They are in the media and you read about them everywhere, sure. That does not equate that everyone wants to be like them. Maybe younger kids are more impressionable, sure, but they grow up too, and often realize that they were pretty stupid back then.

    So in conclusion, I do agree somewhat with what you all are saying here, BUT I feel these things tend to lose all proportions, and it allows us to attribute alot of our problems to the fuzzy "media" or the like. Remember when reading those news, they are sensationalized, and thus hardly representative or indicative of anything other than being a extreme(ly) juicy single case.

    And finally: "Monkey see" does not at all equal "monkey do".

    Peace
    Dan
    I went through eating disorder treatment for numerous body-image issues connected with my own over-sexualization. I had believed the media was the big evil in my life. What I found in the eating disorder treatment world is that the media contributes to the problem but does not cause it. I believe many problems that are actually within our very own grasp are blamed on the media. This is the nature of our "scripts". When we lack the inner understanding and inner dialogue of understanding of our own issues, it's easy to project our problems "out there" on the seeming evil. The good news is that there is a whole lot we can do for ourselves and others, in unhooking from the effects of the media, which by the way, also are very real.
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • OutOfBreath
    OutOfBreath Posts: 1,804
    angelica wrote:
    I went through eating disorder treatment for numerous body-image issues connected with my own over-sexualization. I had believed the media was the big evil in my life. What I found in the eating disorder treatment world is that the media contributes to the problem but does not cause it. I believe many problems that are actually within our very own grasp are blamed on the media. This is the nature of our "scripts". When we lack the inner understanding and inner dialogue of understanding of our own issues, it's easy to project our problems "out there" on the seeming evil. The good news is that there is a whole lot we can do for ourselves and others, in unhooking from the effects of the media, which by the way, also are very real.
    Couldn't agree more.

    But my post was mostly an attempt to counter the finger-pointing holier-than-thouishness that tends to accompany these debates. Media, movies, music is too easily blamed for our ills, that go alot deeper than that. As you said, your problems were not the media, they started before that, although it certainly didn't help either.

    Peace
    Dan
    "YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death

    "Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
  • angelica
    angelica Posts: 6,038
    OutOfBreath wrote:
    Couldn't agree more.

    But my post was mostly an attempt to counter the finger-pointing holier-than-thouishness that tends to accompany these debates. Media, movies, music is too easily blamed for our ills, that go alot deeper than that. As you said, your problems were not the media, they started before that, although it certainly didn't help either.

    Peace
    Dan
    I hear you.
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    it's a real bitch raising daughters in this society. i have three. i am constantly running interference between my youngest who is seven and those people she interacts with who think its okay for a child this age to wear makeup (even if it is 'just pretend') or to be held up as a princess. i look at the clothing targetted at my child and basically weep at what is being done to our daughters. i look at how the media portrays females and talk to my daughters about what a crock of shit it is. and the double standard involved. are men so threatened by women that they have to continually degrade us this way? do they even realise that their mothers are women. that their sisters are women? why is it always the britneys and the lindsays in the spotlight. where are the boys? are they not doing the same thing? or are they all tucked up in bed by 9pm dreaming of a virginal wife who'll bring them their pipe and slippers and blow them when they ask?
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    catefrances wrote:
    or are they all tucked up in bed by 9pm dreaming of a virginal wife who'll bring them their pipe and slippers and blow them when they ask?

    man that would be awesome...

    ;)

    jk, ive found virgins to be a right pain in the ass.
  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    OutOfBreath wrote:
    Maybe younger kids are more impressionable, sure, but they grow up too, and often realize that they were pretty stupid back then.

    the trouble is, a stupid decision by a girl in that area can have dire consequences... pregnancy, a sterilizing std (yeah, guys can get em too, but the way the systems are built women are far more vulnerable), etc.

    it's not like a petty vandalism charge or underage drinking ticket that won't be too bad. it's just a dangerous "mistake" to make... up there with drunk driving. cos if you go to the like dressed like a slut like paris and go home with the first hot guy you find... you can wake up with aids. that's not good.

    now before anyone gets me on a double standard or moral high ground thing... i think guys are as guilty too. im not saying women should be virgins while guys play... im saying we need to teach some common sense and moderation for both.

    as to the guys' end of the deal, they're getting it too. look at hip hop videos and what young men are being taught. women are another accessory, you need lots of bling, have to be alpha male and have a pimped ride, etc etc. both genders are susceptible.
  • decides2dream
    decides2dream Posts: 14,977
    b/c is money isn't spent on 'studies' to actually 'prove' such things...people don't believe it. oftentimes, people STILL don't believe it, but at least with some scientific data to back it up, it holds merit, and thus some sway, in possible changes in society, the media, etc. at the very least, for those parents not really paying attention...perhaps it helps them realize wtf they should be paying attention to for their children's well-being.
    Stay with me...
    Let's just breathe...


    I am myself like you somehow


  • decides2dream
    decides2dream Posts: 14,977
    angelica wrote:
    That and because young girls are pliable and manipulatable as they've not yet had the chance to develop discernment skills. And because grown women can be scary and too challenging to people with serious issues pertaining to women and relationships.


    yea...basically they don't know any better...and certainly don't know good sex from bad yet...great boon for lazy/bad lovers. ;)


    tooferz...i never knew mice had tight ears? :p hahahaha. what an analogy!
    Stay with me...
    Let's just breathe...


    I am myself like you somehow


  • OutOfBreath
    OutOfBreath Posts: 1,804
    soulsinging wrote:
    the trouble is, a stupid decision by a girl in that area can have dire consequences... pregnancy, a sterilizing std (yeah, guys can get em too, but the way the systems are built women are far more vulnerable), etc.

    it's not like a petty vandalism charge or underage drinking ticket that won't be too bad. it's just a dangerous "mistake" to make... up there with drunk driving. cos if you go to the like dressed like a slut like paris and go home with the first hot guy you find... you can wake up with aids. that's not good.

    Well, educate them. They won't get pregnant or stds if they know how to protect themselves. Not as many anyway. Certainly we should teach them moderation and not rushing this stuff. At the same time, we have to realize that after 16, many of them will try it out. (and some of them earlier too)

    We should teach them moderation, and give them all the information they need to go about it safely. And hand out condoms to all of them. That would go a long way to deal with the negative consequences.

    Peace
    Dan
    "YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death

    "Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
  • angelica
    angelica Posts: 6,038
    This isn't just about girls having sex at a young age, it's about their sense of self being mostly tied to their sexuality, rather than to their emotional self, their intellectual or their spiritual nature. Being out of touch with the large aspects of whom one is can be an extremely unsatisfying and imbalanced way to live life. The disorders listed as a consequence of this can be treacherous. Take for example my over 30 year history with eating disorders.

    "Sexualisation was defined as occurring when a person's value comes only from her or his sexual appeal or behaviour, to the exclusion of other characteristics, and when a person is portrayed purely as a sex object."


    'We have ample evidence to conclude that sexualisation has negative effects in a variety of domains, including cognitive functioning, physical and mental health, and healthy sexual development.' "
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • genie
    genie Posts: 2,222
    soulsinging wrote:
    look at hip hop videos and what young men are being taught. women are another accessory, you need lots of bling, have to be alpha male and have a pimped ride, etc etc. both genders are susceptible.

    so you listen and watch shitty hip hop videos when not listening to Pearl Jam music? :D hmm...... never thought that of you (only joking )
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    genie wrote:
    so you listen and watch shitty hip hop videos when not listening to Pearl Jam music? :D hmm...... never thought that of you (only joking )

    oh yeah. don't you know? he's souldiddy. :D:D:p doesn't like to advertise it but we've got his number. he's representin' for all the pj hiphop fans down with that action cuz.


    i feel so white. :D
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • onelongsong
    onelongsong Posts: 3,517
    angelica wrote:
    This isn't just about girls having sex at a young age, it's about their sense of self being mostly tied to their sexuality, rather than to their emotional self, their intellectual or their spiritual nature. Being out of touch with the large aspects of whom one is can be an extremely unsatisfying and imbalanced way to live life. The disorders listed as a consequence of this can be treacherous. Take for example my over 30 year history with eating disorders.

    "Sexualisation was defined as occurring when a person's value comes only from her or his sexual appeal or behaviour, to the exclusion of other characteristics, and when a person is portrayed purely as a sex object."


    'We have ample evidence to conclude that sexualisation has negative effects in a variety of domains, including cognitive functioning, physical and mental health, and healthy sexual development.' "

    i agree with you so much angelica except i believe it convinces the girls that they need to have sex at an early age. i just stopped working with troubled and abused girls last month because of health reasons; but i found that they idolized people like paris hilton and believe that by dressing and acting provocatively and having sex; they will become as popular as her. paris hilton may be celebat for all we know but they believe she's having sex all the time. so they mimic their idol as they see her sacrificing their self esteem.

    ( i wonder how he knows mice have tight ears too.)
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    onelongsong wrote:
    i agree with you so much angelica except i believe it convinces the girls that they need to have sex at an early age. i just stopped working with troubled and abused girls last month because of health reasons; but i found that they idolized people like paris hilton and believe that by dressing and acting provocatively and having sex; they will become as popular as her. paris hilton may be celebat for all we know but they believe she's having sex all the time. so they mimic their idol as they see her sacrificing their self esteem.

    ( i wonder how he knows mice have tight ears too.)

    they think paris is having sex anyway. and they see so many skinny bitches who don't seem to do anything worthwhile, parading in the media that it becomes ingrained into their heads. they come to believe that if they give it and put it out there, then they will get what they're missing in return. but the thing is, they're not missing anything in the first place. paris hilton contributes absolutely nothing to society. she's like fairy floss(cotton candy for my american friends :D ). all sugar and air and no substance. girls need to be taught to value themselves more highly. not to be just like paris, nicole or whoever the flavour of the week is.
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    OutOfBreath wrote:
    Well, educate them. They won't get pregnant or stds if they know how to protect themselves. Not as many anyway. Certainly we should teach them moderation and not rushing this stuff. At the same time, we have to realize that after 16, many of them will try it out. (and some of them earlier too)

    We should teach them moderation, and give them all the information they need to go about it safely. And hand out condoms to all of them. That would go a long way to deal with the negative consequences.

    Peace
    Dan

    i agree with all of that, but i also don't think that being vocally critical of a culture that makes sex a cheap, popular commodity like a flashy new pair of shoes is a bad thing.

    aren't you norwegian? ;)
  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    genie wrote:
    so you listen and watch shitty hip hop videos when not listening to Pearl Jam music? :D hmm...... never thought that of you (only joking )

    no more than you are learning to party pantyless from paris ;)

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