President George Bush Won't Close Guantanamo: Should It Be Closed?

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Comments

  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,975
    g under p wrote:
    The war on terror is set up to NEVER EVER end. Any incident that happens around the world from now until can or will be considered to be part of the WOT.

    Peace


    I agree with this, the War on Terror is set up to continue for as long as there are people out there committing violent terriorist attacks. Probably forever.

    It should see a focus from the all out war we see now to improved intelligence and tactical strikes.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • g under p
    g under p Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,249
    cincybearcat wrote:
    I agree with this, the War on Terror is set up to continue for as long as there are people out there committing violent terriorist attacks. Probably forever.

    It should see a focus from the all out war we see now to improved intelligence and tactical strikes.

    For as much as this Country has become a militarized nation this is the perfect war cause it will never end. Our country has now become motivated in the era of war by the powers that be in war profiteering and other hidden agenda.

    Checkout the last two books by Chalmers Johnson.....*Blowback* and especially on militarism *The Sorrows of Empire*

    Peace
    *We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti

    *MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
    .....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti

    *The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)


  • Quak
    Quak Posts: 14
    jbalicki10 wrote:
    Give them rights?? They are not US citzens.

    Court? What Court could you trial them in? It can't be a US Court because they are not US citizens and were not in the US when the crimes were commited. I am not familar with any World Court. There could be one?? As far as I know they are POWs.

    Most of these people that are detained here are the world's most dangerous people. It would be foolish to release them. The US army should have killed them when they had the chance. Instead, they interrogated them and are left a huge mess of what to do with them. Releasing them should not be an option period.

    What a scary world view you have. Have you ever been outside US? Let me guess the world is black and white, USA is the "always" the good guys and Jesus knows you?
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    jbalicki10 wrote:
    Yes I think the war will end. How and when are big questions.

    Tell me how do you win a war against an ideology. Do you bomb the ideology away or maybe water board it. Tell me what is the way we can, through force, defeat this ideology because that is basically what the "War on Terror" is. You can kill terrorists by the truck load but the ideology still exists and as long as it does you will have oppressed young uneducated muslims being drawn in by that ideology.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,975
    Quak wrote:
    What a scary world view you have. Have you ever been outside US? Let me guess the world is black and white, USA is the "always" the good guys and Jesus knows you?


    Your comments are just as scary.

    You seemed to combine all the sterotypes into one, good work.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    I believe it was Robert Baer who said that if these people over in the Middle East had hope for a future, an education, a job, a means to provide for their families and didn't live under an oppressive regime they would be less likely to strap an explosive vest on and blow themselves up. By using military force, or torture for that matter, you only deepen their hopeless situation.

    In one of his books Baer discusses how religious schools, in places like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, use food to draw in these young men. They feed them and give them and their families food and necessities. This gives them a sense of hope and purpose only to use that as a mean to indoctrinate them into their ideology.

    Take away their despair and you lessen the likelihood that these parasites, like Bin Laden, will be able to take advantage of them.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • jbalicki10
    jbalicki10 Posts: 517
    Quak wrote:
    What a scary world view you have. Have you ever been outside US? Let me guess the world is black and white, USA is the "always" the good guys and Jesus knows you?

    Rhetorical question: Why do you hate America so much?
  • jbalicki10
    jbalicki10 Posts: 517
    mammasan wrote:
    Tell me how do you win a war against an ideology. Do you bomb the ideology away or maybe water board it. Tell me what is the way we can, through force, defeat this ideology because that is basically what the "War on Terror" is. You can kill terrorists by the truck load but the ideology still exists and as long as it does you will have oppressed young uneducated muslims being drawn in by that ideology.

    How did we defeat the Soviets and Communist Expansion? Wasn't that an ideology? Yes, you can defeat ideology.
  • g under p
    g under p Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,249
    jbalicki10 wrote:
    How did we defeat the Soviets and Communist Expansion? Wasn't that an ideology? Yes, you can defeat ideology.

    How can you defeat an idealogy when that idealogy can be anywhere, any country, just about ant person even someone in our country the US. Remember Timothy McVie.

    Peace
    *We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti

    *MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
    .....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti

    *The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)


  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    jbalicki10 wrote:
    How did we defeat the Soviets and Communist Expansion? Wasn't that an ideology? Yes, you can defeat ideology.

    So Communism is dead? We defeated the Soviet Union, a nation, we didn't defeat Communism because guess what it is still alive today and growing in areas of South America.

    Also we didn't defeat anyone. The Soviet Union collapsed due to internal reform.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • jbalicki10
    jbalicki10 Posts: 517
    g under p wrote:
    How can you defeat an idealogy when that idealogy can be anywhere, any country, just about ant person even someone in our country the US. Remember Timothy McVie.

    Peace

    Your right in the fact you can't just wipe out an idealogy off the globe. However, you can certainly contain it. Fascism and Communsim still exists in our world, but it is contained and not spreading like wildfire as it once did.
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    jbalicki10 wrote:
    Your right in the fact you can't just wipe out an idealogy off the globe. However, you can certainly contain it. Fascism and Communsim still exists in our world, but it is contained and not spreading like wildfire as it once did.

    That is because both these ideologies where incorporate into a form of government. Once the government was defeat the ideology dwindled away. With terrorism it is not confined to a form of government or a state. It is free flowing without boundries. You find the ideology in the US, in South America, in Europe, in the Middle East and in Asia. You can't contain the ideology by toppling a government of defeating another country with military force. Unlike Facism and Communism which where more of a political ideology, terrorism is a means to an end. Terrorism has been around for hundred's of years and will continue to be so because it is a mean for the weak to fight the strong.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • jbalicki10
    jbalicki10 Posts: 517
    mammasan wrote:
    That is because both these ideologies where incorporate into a form of government. Once the government was defeat the ideology dwindled away. With terrorism it is not confined to a form of government or a state. It is free flowing without boundries. You find the ideology in the US, in South America, in Europe, in the Middle East and in Asia. You can't contain the ideology by toppling a government of defeating another country with military force. Unlike Facism and Communism which where more of a political ideology, terrorism is a means to an end. Terrorism has been around for hundred's of years and will continue to be so because it is a mean for the weak to fight the strong.

    Terrorism was once supported in the Taliban's form of government. The Tehran supports terrorists groups. These terrorist group have much power in a lot of countries. We have to do what we must in order for them to lose that power. True, terrorism has been around for hundreds of years and wont be erraticated. However, it is at a boiling point and we have to stop it before it blows up on everyone.
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    jbalicki10 wrote:
    Terrorism was once supported in the Taliban's form of government. The Tehran supports terrorists groups. These terrorist group have much power in a lot of countries. We have to do what we must in order for them to lose that power. True, terrorism has been around for hundreds of years and wont be erraticated. However, it is at a boiling point and we have to stop it before it blows up on everyone.

    I agree that terrorism must be dealt with but force is not the answer. The British learned this with the IRA. Force did nothing to stop the IRA's activities and our use of military force will not stem the tide of terrorism.

    As to the point you made in your post these government provided aid, in many forms, to organizations that used terrorism as a mean to achieve their goals. So you may be able to kill hundreds of Islamic militants who use terrorism as a mean but you would still have the basque Seperatist in Spain or FARC in Columbia. That is why the War on Terror is a sham.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • jbalicki10
    jbalicki10 Posts: 517
    mammasan wrote:
    I agree that terrorism must be dealt with but force is not the answer. The British learned this with the IRA. Force did nothing to stop the IRA's activities and our use of military force will not stem the tide of terrorism.

    As to the point you made in your post these government provided aid, in many forms, to organizations that used terrorism as a mean to achieve their goals. So you may be able to kill hundreds of Islamic militants who use terrorism as a mean but you would still have the basque Seperatist in Spain or FARC in Columbia. That is why the War on Terror is a sham.

    Both Force and Infiltration defeated the IRA from the Uk. It ripped them apart internally as well as externally. Unfortunately, we were severly lagging in this department of infiltration. Once we get this going, we will be a better fighting force in the middle east. My knowledge of this is from the Military Channel, so I can't say I studied this topic of the IRA all that well. But I believe it was pretty accurate.

    The Basque Seperatists is a whole different story. These are people are rebelling against their country to form another country. However, these groups are using terrorist activities to deal with the situtation. I agree we should help Spain fight the terrorist activity. But the problem is they won't accept our help. Same goes go the break away republic chennai and the terrorist activities there. (Remember the Moscow Theater Massacre?) The Russians won't let us help them either.
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    jbalicki10 wrote:
    Both Force and Infiltration defeated the IRA from the Uk. It ripped them apart internally as well as externally. Unfortunately, we were severly lagging in this department of infiltration. Once we get this going, we will be a better fighting force in the middle east. My knowledge of this is from the Military Channel, so I can't say I studied this topic of the IRA all that well. But I believe it was pretty accurate.

    The Basque Seperatists is a whole different story. These are people are rebelling against their country to form another country. However, these groups are using terrorist activities to deal with the situtation. I agree we should help Spain fight the terrorist activity. But the problem is they won't accept our help. Same goes go the break away republic chennai and the terrorist activities there. (Remember the Moscow Theater Massacre?) The Russians won't let us help them either.

    The British government has stated that force would have never been able to defeat the IRA. Just like military force will not defeat ETA in Spain, just like force will not defeat FARC in Columbia because with the use of force there is always civilian casualties which only created more despair which these organizations can use to recruit.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • jbalicki10
    jbalicki10 Posts: 517
    mammasan wrote:
    The British government has stated that force would have never been able to defeat the IRA. Just like military force will not defeat ETA in Spain, just like force will not defeat FARC in Columbia because with the use of force there is always civilian casualties which only created more despair which these organizations can use to recruit.

    I agree, use force alone only will not be the only means to defeat the ETA and FARC. However, it will be necessary I believe. This is not a peacful revolution like solidarity.
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    jbalicki10 wrote:
    I agree, use force alone only will not be the only means to defeat the ETA and FARC. However, it will be necessary I believe. This is not a peacful revolution like solidarity.

    It's not just limited to ETA or FARC it's extremist all the world over. As I stated earlier the quote by, I believe Robert Baer, about suicide bombers. Give them a reason to live, an education, work, a future for them and their family and they will not go off on some suicide bombing mission. They will not pick up a weapon to fight the Western Satan. Yes we need to stop those that have already been indoctrinated but we could do more harm to these organizations by taking actions to better the society they prey on for foot soldiers and martyrs then by dropping missiles on their hide outs. If you don't believe me look at the Sunni regions in Iraq, look at the Shia regions in Iraq. Both where plagued by Foreign jihadists in the north and Shia militias in the south and as long as the people had no hope they turned to these groups because they gave the people a false sense of hope. As the situation on the ground improved these people had more to live for, more jobs, more food, better living conditions. The situation is still far from ideal there but it is getting better. All of a sudden these organizations could no longer prey upon the public's hopelessness. In the north the Shia started to turn on the foreign jihadists. In the south the people started to turn on the militias. While police and military actions may still be needed to root out the forces that exists it was the betterment of these people's lives that dealt the greatest blow.

    You want to curb these organizations that employ terrorism then you need to take away their power to draw people to their cause because as long as they hold that power it doesn't matter how many we kill or how many we jail or how many bombs we drop there will be another young muslin ready to fill the ranks of the dead.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • VINNY GOOMBA
    VINNY GOOMBA Posts: 1,828
    mammasan wrote:
    You want to curb these organizations that employ terrorism then you need to take away their power to draw people to their cause because as long as they hold that power it doesn't matter how many we kill or how many we jail or how many bombs we drop there will be another young muslin ready to fill the ranks of the dead.

    EXACTLY.

    Which leaves us with 2 theories about our government, and their response to this whole mess:

    A) They're ignorant-- they obviously think this is a war that can be won, and are spending way too much money trying to win it.

    B) They know it can't be won, and it's only purposes are serious profiteering, and further control of the globe. This control is implemented over us here in America through heavy taxation, suspension of our civil liberties, and an increasing police state.

    I think the original intent may have been A) for the most part. However, it didn't take long to really start taking advantage with B).
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    VINNY GOOMBA wrote:
    EXACTLY.

    Which leaves us with 2 theories about our government, and their response to this whole mess:

    A) They're ignorant-- they obviously think this is a war that can be won, and are spending way too much money trying to win it.

    B) They know it can't be won, and it's only purposes are serious profiteering, and further control of the globe. This control is implemented over us here in America through heavy taxation, suspension of our civil liberties, and an increasing police state.

    I think the original intent may have been A) for the most part. However, it didn't take long to really start taking advantage with B).

    I believe it is a little bit of both. Our own hubris blinds us to the fact that our highly expensive and well trained military may not be able to win this war. It is unimaginable for any of leaders to even comprehend that. They are incapable of uttering the word "failure". I also believe that they view this war without borders as a means of making money. Look at how many corporations have fattened their wallets because of this war. Combine the two, hubris and profits, and you have a terribly bad situation in which unending war will be fought regardless of it's effectiveness.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul

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