Venezuela's Chavez may take over schools

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  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    jlew24asu wrote:
    I'll never understand the socialist mindset. nor do I care to debate with you.

    I have my own mindset. You know that. You shouldn't buffer your individuality with political artifices of defeat.
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  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    jlew24asu wrote:
    chavez wants to run ALL school his way. why are you defending this? I dont need to go to a school in Venezuela. I'm going off what chavez himself is saying.

    All schools, public and private, must admit state inspectors and submit to the government's new educational system, or be closed and nationalized, with the state taking responsibility for the education of their children, Chavez said.

    "We want to create our own ideology collectively — creative, diverse," the president said, adding that it would help develop values of "cooperation and solidarity."

    All schools will be bound to "subordinate themselves to the constitution" and comply with the "new Bolivarian educational system," he said, referring to his socialist movement named after South American independence hero Simon Bolivar.

    this isn't happening in America or anywhere in Europe

    maybe that's a good thing. maybe their education needs a serious kick in the ass so this doesn't happen:

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070917/od_nm/autopsy_dc_1

    of course, you'll probably find a way to blame chavez for that one too.
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    soulsinging wrote:
    maybe that's a good thing. maybe their education needs a serious kick in the ass so this doesn't happen:

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070917/od_nm/autopsy_dc_1

    of course, you'll probably find a way to blame chavez for that one too.

    sorry, I don't see how having one man take over all schools a good thing.
  • CaterinaA
    CaterinaA Posts: 572
    soulsinging wrote:
    maybe that's a good thing. maybe their education needs a serious kick in the ass so this doesn't happen:

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070917/od_nm/autopsy_dc_1

    of course, you'll probably find a way to blame chavez for that one too.

    Yes, I agree that Venezuela's educative system needs a serious kick in the ass. However the main focus should on the public schools, 'cause private schools are the only place to get something similar to a decent education in Venezuela. I, like every kid whose parents could afford it, attended a private elementary and then a private high-school in Venezuela. When I entered the university I could fully see the huge gap between us the lucky ones who attended private schools and those who attended public schools. That gap has not been closed, those getting their education via the public system still get much lower scores on Venezuela's SAT and have much more trouble to get accepted at universities.

    And no, private schools are not allowed do as they please in Venezuela. There's a Ministry of Education, currently lead by Adan Chavez (Hugo's brother), and it has always been in charge of designing the curricula for both private and public schools (elementary and high). The beef of several experts in the field and of the private schools is that this Boliviarian System of Education has not been effective, particularly, in terms of quality for the public schooling system. It doesn't make any sense to mess up with something that's been working in a decent fashion. That and the fact, that the reform proposal is crearly a form of indoctrination.

    http://www.eluniversal.com/2007/09/19/sistemabolivariano.pdf

    (Full reform proposal for those who can read Spanish)

    Saludos,
    Caterina
  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    CaterinaA wrote:
    Yes, I agree that Venezuela's educative system needs a serious kick in the ass. However the main focus should on the public schools, 'cause private schools are the only place to get something similar to a decent education in Venezuela. I, like every kid whose parents could afford it, attended a private elementary and then a private high-school in Venezuela. When I entered the university I could fully see the huge gap between us the lucky ones who attended private schools and those who attended public schools. That gap has not been closed, those getting their education via the public system still get much lower scores on Venezuela's SAT and have much more trouble to get accepted at universities.

    And no, private schools are not allowed do as they please in Venezuela. There's a Ministry of Education, currently lead by Adan Chavez (Hugo's brother), and it has always been in charge of designing the curricula for both private and public schools (elementary and high). The beef of several experts in the field and of the private schools is that this Boliviarian System of Education has not been effective, particularly, in terms of quality for the public schooling system. It doesn't make any sense to mess up with something that's been working in a decent fashion. That and the fact, that the reform proposal is crearly a form of indoctrination.

    http://www.eluniversal.com/2007/09/19/sistemabolivariano.pdf

    (Full reform proposal for those who can read Spanish)

    Saludos,
    Caterina

    And your anti-chavez sentiments come from?
    Could it be...indoctrinization?
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  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    CaterinaA wrote:
    Yes, I agree that Venezuela's educative system needs a serious kick in the ass. However the main focus should on the public schools, 'cause private schools are the only place to get something similar to a decent education in Venezuela. I, like every kid whose parents could afford it, attended a private elementary and then a private high-school in Venezuela. When I entered the university I could fully see the huge gap between us the lucky ones who attended private schools and those who attended public schools. That gap has not been closed, those getting their education via the public system still get much lower scores on Venezuela's SAT and have much more trouble to get accepted at universities.

    And no, private schools are not allowed do as they please in Venezuela. There's a Ministry of Education, currently lead by Adan Chavez (Hugo's brother), and it has always been in charge of designing the curricula for both private and public schools (elementary and high). The beef of several experts in the field and of the private schools is that this Boliviarian System of Education has not been effective, particularly, in terms of quality for the public schooling system. It doesn't make any sense to mess up with something that's been working in a decent fashion. That and the fact, that the reform proposal is crearly a form of indoctrination.

    http://www.eluniversal.com/2007/09/19/sistemabolivariano.pdf

    (Full reform proposal for those who can read Spanish)

    Saludos,
    Caterina

    i cant read spanish unfortunately ;) i hope to learn soon though, im planning to study abroad next year in your city!

    that's interesting though. from that perspective, it sounds like the easy-out socialist plan of restricting the top rather than bringing up the bottom. rather than bring the public schools up to make sure the elite or wealthy don't have an edge, they bring the latter down by controlling their schools.

    what is the boliviaran system? if it's not too much to get a layman's guide.
  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    jlew24asu wrote:
    sorry, I don't see how having one man take over all schools a good thing.

    it was kind of a joke... as in "where did this guy get his education that he couldn't tell his subject was dead? they need someone to fix their schools."
  • CaterinaA
    CaterinaA Posts: 572
    gue_barium wrote:
    And your anti-chavez sentiments come from?
    Could it be...indoctrinization?

    Nope, I have not been indoctrinated and I've not been bought by the opposition as someone suggested on a previous thread. I don't have any political affiliation and I work for the UN, so as you it's not like I work for an anti-Chavez organization. My anti-Chávez sentiments come from my principles, my values, my academic background and me having lived in Venezuela and being there in Caracas during both of his attempts to overthrow a democratically elected President.

    And yes, I see a huge difference between me being 34 year old and deciding my political beliefs and 7 year old kids being taught that only Marxism will bring them happiness. I was given the chance to have a choice those kids won't, and for me that's wrong. If they want to be Marxists or Chavistas fine by me, but give them all the tools to make an informed decision.
  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    CaterinaA wrote:
    Nope, I have not been indoctrinated and I've not been bought by the opposition as someone suggested on a previous thread. I don't have any political affiliation and I work for the UN, so as you it's not like I work for an anti-Chavez organization. My anti-Chávez sentiments come from my principles, my values, my academic background and me having lived in Venezuela and being there in Caracas during both of his attempts to overthrow a democratically elected President.

    And yes, I see a huge difference between me being 34 year old and deciding my political beliefs and 7 year old kids being taught that only Marxism will bring them happiness. I was given the chance to have a choice those kids won't, and for me that's wrong. If they want to be Marxists or Chavistas fine by me, but give them all the tools to make an informed decision.

    I think you over-simply things to back your anti-chavista indoctornization. I have never seen you state anything to the effect that one thing Chavez is doing might be a good thing.
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  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    gue_barium wrote:
    I think you over-simply things to back your anti-chavista indoctornization. I have never seen you state anything to the effect that one thing Chavez is doing might be a good thing.

    then what does that make you? sounds like you're rather indoctrinated too. i have never seen you state anything to the effect that one thing bush is doing might be a good thing. i have never seen you state anything to the effect that one thing chavez is doing might be a bad thing.
  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    soulsinging wrote:
    then what does that make you? sounds like you're rather indoctrinated too. i have never seen you state anything to the effect that one thing bush is doing might be a good thing. i have never seen you state anything to the effect that one thing chavez is doing might be a bad thing.

    Indoctrinated to what? You'll have to do better than that.

    Search my posts. You'll be hard pressed to even find a Bush reference. Or even a Chavez one.

    And you're contributing to the problem with your oversimplification. This sort of Bush=bad Chavez=good analogy. That isn't what this is about. But that's what you are doing, and that is what caterina does when it comes to Chavez, without fail.
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  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    gue_barium wrote:
    Indoctrinated to what? You'll have to do better than that.

    Search my posts. You'll be hard pressed to even find a Bush reference. Or even a Chavez one.

    And you're contributing to the problem with your oversimplification. This sort of Bush=bad Chavez=good analogy. That isn't what this is about. But that's what you are doing, and that is what caterina does when it comes to Chavez, without fail.

    it's what i've seen you doing... us government is evil and murdering, socialist governments are angelic. you seem pretty simplified to me.

    i've never seen caterina posting about chavez before. and seeing as she's from venezuela, i'd say she's got a pretty good case to be a touch more knowledgeable about what's going on there than you, who gets your news from prisonplanet or whatever other paranoid conspiracy driven source you like. her post did not seem over-simplified at all. her post seemed very specific, intelligent, and informed in its analysis of the effect of this move on venezuela's education system.
  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    soulsinging wrote:
    becos that's what i've seen you doing. i've never seen caterina posting about chavez before. and seeing as she's from venezuela, i'd say she's got a pretty good case to be a touch more knowledgeable about what's going on there than you, who gets your news from prisonplanet or whatever other paranoid conspiracy driven source you like. her post did not seem over-simplified at all. her post seemed very specific, intelligent, and informed in its analysis of the effect of this move on venezuela's education system.
    Tell it to Caterina, and careful about catergorizing me.
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  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    gue_barium wrote:
    Tell it to Caterina, and careful about catergorizing me.

    i already did. and i'll not "categorize" you when i'm given reason to believe my impressions are wrong.
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    gue_barium wrote:
    Tell it to Caterina, and careful about catergorizing me.

    I'll categorize you. you are pro-chavez. and you take his move on the educational system as a good thing.
  • CaterinaA
    CaterinaA Posts: 572
    soulsinging wrote:
    i cant read spanish unfortunately ;) i hope to learn soon though, im planning to study abroad next year in your city!

    that's interesting though. from that perspective, it sounds like the easy-out socialist plan of restricting the top rather than bringing up the bottom. rather than bring the public schools up to make sure the elite or wealthy don't have an edge, they bring the latter down by controlling their schools.

    what is the boliviaran system? if it's not too much to get a layman's guide.

    Great, you'll have a great time in Buenos Aires, it is an amazing city. If there's anything I can help just let me know.

    OK The Boliviarian System of Education is an educational plan they've implemented in some schools, with mediocre results at best. Yet they want to expand it to the whole system. The name Bolivarian, well, they just add it to everything nowadays :D. The proposal, which reverses the educational reform of 1982, is a comprehensive reform with strong emphasis on "bolivarian and anti-imperialist values". Since elementary school they'll be receiving socialist and marxist lessons...which could be fine (although,in my opinion 7 year olds should be learning math, grammar, history and such, you know the stuff you usally learn) if they taught all the scope.

    I can't find a link with the reform proposal in english :(
  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    jlew24asu wrote:
    I'll categorize you. you are pro-chavez. and you take his move on the educational system as a good thing.

    See, this is where your education ... lack of education, and the American Public Education system fails. Whatever man took over your school sure did a number on you. I can't be pro-chavez. I don't live in Venezuela. Chavez is irrelevant to me.
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  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    gue_barium wrote:
    See, this is where your education ... lack of education, and the American Public Education system fails. Whatever man took over your school sure did a number on you. I can't be pro-chavez. I don't live in Venezuela. Chavez is irrelevant to me.

    thats a good one. so I'll ask. do you agree or disagree with Chavez's goal of taking over ALL schools?
  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    CaterinaA wrote:
    Great, you'll have a great time in Buenos Aires, it is an amazing city. If there's anything I can help just let me know.

    OK The Boliviarian System of Education is an educational plan they've implemented in some schools, with mediocre results at best. Yet they want to expand it to the whole system. The name Bolivarian, well, they just add it to everything nowadays :D. The proposal, which reverses the educational reform of 1982, is a comprehensive reform with strong emphasis on "bolivarian and anti-imperialist values". Since elementary school they'll be receiving socialist and marxist lessons...which could be fine (although,in my opinion 7 year olds should be learning math, grammar, history and such, you know the stuff you usally learn) if they taught all the scope.

    I can't find a link with the reform proposal in english :(

    Well, see, now you're suggesting they wouldn't be teaching the basics. That's just preposterous BS.
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  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    jlew24asu wrote:
    thats a good one. so I'll ask. do you agree or disagree with Chavez's goal of taking over ALL schools?

    He's trying to implement a plan. Our State of Education does it all the time. There's nothing to be alarmed about here. At this point the Bolivarian System is in the first stages, and it is very oriented in Patriotism. I'm sure, in time, it will evolve and mature.
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