Why Aren't We Shocked?

Ahnimus · October 2006

hippiemom wrote:

I hate to be the one to break it to you, but this thread isn't about YOU. There are sociological trends, believe it or not, that may not involve YOU directly. This may come as a shocker, but most people in the western world are exposed to an awful lot of media messages. For real, I'm not making this up! I don't watch television either, but I had no trouble at all grasping the concept that the article wasn't about me personally.

Funny how you think it's a cultural problem while others don't. I certainly don't and it's not because I'm a man. I was just talking to a woman, a very intelligent one. She says culture isn't like that at all, the opinions of a few people are what we hear about because they are brutal and attract media attention. However, the majority of people don't have those opinions. She is right. This was an isolated incident and no way reflects on our cultural growth. On the other hand making a huge feminist issue out of it victimizes women and gives creedance to the gender imbalance that feminism is propagating.

Ahnimus · October 2006

VictoryGin wrote:

Show me exactly where I said "everyone else is sexist." Oh, you can't! Because I didn't!

VictoryGin wrote:

oh, maybe it's because this society still has issues about women, quite possibly manifesting themselves in misogyny or sexism.

It's strongly implied.

VictoryGin · October 2006

hippiemom wrote:

We all put far too much focus on appearance. And you're right, it is often about one-upping other women, or snagging a man, but it's also sometimes about snagging a job. No white-collar woman in her right mind would go on a job interview without make-up and freshly manicured fingernails. That's interpreted by HR as "inattention to detail" or "lack of initiative." A man is expected to be neat and clean, but a woman is expected to be neat and clean and freshly painted and clad in garments (skirt, heels) that render her relatively helpless.

Of course many women help to promote it ... they've been taught subliminally all their lives. I see a lot of women who honestly have no idea how to interact with a man as just another person, much as some of the men in this thread clearly see relations with women as being adversarial.

Anyway, time for me to go home now, and thank you for an intelligent and relevant response, it was refreshing

Just quickly--as I'm running out the door for a cocktail--sadly from my friends experience, it's like that in academia. You'd think with all those 'liberals' that they would be more understanding of a woman in pants who is not quite as femme, but sadly it's there too.

VictoryGin · October 2006

Ahnimus wrote:

It's strongly implied.

It's useless.

Ahnimus · October 2006

VictoryGin wrote:

Just quickly--as I'm running out the door for a cocktail--sadly from my friends experience, it's like that in academia. You'd think with all those 'liberals' that they would be more understanding of a woman in pants who is not quite as femme, but sadly it's there too.

Cry me a river. I'm sick of the self-pity.

What has anyone ever done to you? What have you experienced that is so bad?

Have you ever been jumped and beaten by 50 guys? No? I didn't think so.

soulsinging · October 2006

VictoryGin wrote:

Just quickly--as I'm running out the door for a cocktail--sadly from my friends experience, it's like that in academia. You'd think with all those 'liberals' that they would be more understanding of a woman in pants who is not quite as femme, but sadly it's there too.

there is a huge irony in the runaway success women enjoy as students in higher ed and their lack of opportunities in teaching higher ed. that's a strong sign.

there are definite elements of sexism in our culture. ahnimus, you mention that we stopped promoting violence towards women years ago and you may be right, but that does not mean the violence has stopped or the thinking that underlay that violence disappeared overnight. it takes time. maybe it's no longer ok to beat your wife publicly, but pressure is still put on women to conform, to wear make up, to be deferential.

yes, there is pressure on men too. but the article discussed this pressure with respect to women. both are wrong, but does that mean we should not strive to fight abuse towards women just becos it happens to men too? wouldnt it make more sense to fight abuse towards both or either?

it sounds like you've known some pretty fucked up girls in your day that might even exceed my resume. im sorry to hear that. you sound very angry and bitter towards women, something i can understand. but i think it's clouding your judgment here a bit.

soulsinging · October 2006

Ahnimus wrote:

Cry me a river. I'm sick of the self-pity.

What has anyone ever done to you? What have you experienced that is so bad?

Have you ever been jumped and beaten by 50 guys? No? I didn't think so.

jesus man. have you ever been jumped and beaten by 50 girls? does a girl have to get gang raped in order to claim there is sexism in this country?

forgotten_child · October 2006

im shocked

Ahnimus · October 2006

soulsinging wrote:

there is a huge irony in the runaway success women enjoy as students in higher ed and their lack of opportunities in teaching higher ed. that's a strong sign.

there are definite elements of sexism in our culture. ahnimus, you mention that we stopped promoting violence towards women years ago and you may be right, but that does not mean the violence has stopped or the thinking that underlay that violence disappeared overnight. it takes time. maybe it's no longer ok to beat your wife publicly, but pressure is still put on women to conform, to wear make up, to be deferential.

yes, there is pressure on men too. but the article discussed this pressure with respect to women. both are wrong, but does that mean we should not strive to fight abuse towards women just becos it happens to men too? wouldnt it make more sense to fight abuse towards both or either?

it sounds like you've known some pretty fucked up girls in your day that might even exceed my resume. im sorry to hear that. you sound very angry and bitter towards women, something i can understand. but i think it's clouding your judgment here a bit.

Stop saying I hate women or that I am bitter towards them. I am not. It's the bullshit I hate. These particular incidents having nothing to do with sexism. It's just the authors precept of sexism that lead them to write the article. The same applies to most reports of sexism. People dig deep and twist the truth to come up with these sensational stories.

It's been ok for women to beat men for as long as I've been alive. That needs to stop and this common precept of women having extra rights has to end as well.

Ahnimus · October 2006

soulsinging wrote:

jesus man. have you ever been jumped and beaten by 50 girls? does a girl have to get gang raped in order to claim there is sexism in this country?

Nope, but I've been jumped by 50 guys. I've also endured the psychological warfare women are so good at. That's the reason I was jumped by 50 guys.

Sexism, yea. it exists. In the particular incident, I was minding my own business at school, just chillin' in the hallway skipping class when this girl named Julia sat down on the bench next to me. She was kind of hitting on me, but I showed no interest. A few days later I was hanging with this girl outside of a mall, she was looking at some seventeen magazine or something. She showed me a picture of a model and asked me if I thought she was ugly. To humor her, I said "yea she's disgustingly ugly". Meanwhile, Julia is walking by and thinks I am talking about her. Next thing I know I'm getting jumped by 50 guys. It just so happens her new boyfriend is part of a gang.

That is an example of sexism, but I wasn't being sexist, the girls were. They were being sexist towards themselves, treating themselves as objects. I didn't care what either of them looked like, but they did. They caused the problem, I was just an innocent bystander caught in the warped world of women with serious self-esteem issues.

The guys, they didn't care, they just wanted a target. Someone to take their aggression out on, and it continued for almost a year. By the end of that year, Julia and all of her gangsta friends knew the truth, but they were bent on kicking my ass day in and day out. Her boyfriend Chad actually said "I don't care, you are still fucking dead"

This even elevated to the point where they threatened my parents to their face at seperate times. See how out of hand it got because some girl was self-concious about her looks? That's not my fault, it's hers.

Yes, I've had some real experiences in my life. Not the stupid shit you read in some bias article. Not the crap you see on the news and deffinately not the crap the school or your parents teach you.

hippiemom · October 2006

Ahnimus wrote:

Nope, but I've been jumped by 50 guys. I've also endured the psychological warfare women are so good at. That's the reason I was jumped by 50 guys.

Sexism, yea. it exists. In the particular incident, I was minding my own business at school, just chillin' in the hallway skipping class when this girl named Julia sat down on the bench next to me. She was kind of hitting on me, but I showed no interest. A few days later I was hanging with this girl outside of a mall, she was looking at some seventeen magazine or something. She showed me a picture of a model and asked me if I thought she was ugly. To humor her, I said "yea she's disgustingly ugly". Meanwhile, Julia is walking by and thinks I am talking about her. Next thing I know I'm getting jumped by 50 guys. It just so happens her new boyfriend is part of a gang.

That is an example of sexism, but I wasn't being sexist, the girls were. They were being sexist towards themselves, treating themselves as objects. I didn't care what either of them looked like, but they did. They caused the problem, I was just an innocent bystander caught in the warped world of women with serious self-esteem issues.

The guys, they didn't care, they just wanted a target. Someone to take their aggression out on, and it continued for almost a year. By the end of that year, Julia and all of her gangsta friends knew the truth, but they were bent on kicking my ass day in and day out. Her boyfriend Chad actually said "I don't care, you are still fucking dead"

This even elevated to the point where they threatened my parents to their face at seperate times. See how out of hand it got because some girl was self-concious about her looks? That's not my fault, it's hers.

Yes, I've had some real experiences in my life. Not the stupid shit you read in some bias article. Not the crap you see on the news and deffinately not the crap the school or your parents teach you.

When one person says something about you, such as that you seem to have anger issues with women, it may be their own personal bias. When multiple people say the same thing, you may have to consider that there could be some truth to it.

You've obviously had some disturbing experiences, and it wouldn't be at all unusual to have a hard time reconciling all of them and putting them into perspective. Have you considered some type of counseling? I'm not trying to insult you, I'm serious here.

Ahnimus · October 2006

hippiemom wrote:

When one person says something about you, such as that you seem to have anger issues with women, it may be their own personal bias. When multiple people say the same thing, you may have to consider that there could be some truth to it.

You've obviously had some disturbing experiences, and it wouldn't be at all unusual to have a hard time reconciling all of them and putting them into perspective. Have you considered some type of counseling? I'm not trying to insult you, I'm serious here.

I should warn you not to try to analyze me by the points I am trying to make.

My female friends all tend to have a level of trust with me they don't find most other places. I know how often women are raped, they've all told me about it. I know of the sexual abuse by close relatives and friends and so on. For some reason, they are comfortable telling me about it. I am sympathetic to them. Sometimes truly empathetic. So your diagnosis is totally shot to hell. You are the one that needs therapy, so you can become self-aware and realize your own bias. I don't want women to be raped or beaten. I want to be able to protect them all from that stuff. But that doesn't change the facts that I am pointing out. Quit trying to fuck with me.

Ahnimus · October 2006

Hey you want to hear something really ironic?

When I was a kid my mother said similar things to me about needing therapy and serious help. She is the one that commited me to the pscyhiatric ward of the hospital. Guess where she is now? Yup, her husband did the same thing. At least that's what I gathered, she may have gone there herself. She's been considering suicide a lot lately and her life basically sucks.

It's just ironic that someone that sounded exactly like you are sounding now Hippiemom ends up meeting that fate. Guess where I am? 1500 km away from her. That doesn't mean I don't care though, I'd be there right now if I could be. Just after that I moved far away from her, I didn't want much at all to do with her. The last 10 years have been hell for her. A disk exploded in her spine, partially immobilizing her, she's without her kids, we all moved away and she is having a psychological breakdown. She left my dad because he wasn't everything she dreamed of and now she is with an alcoholic asshole.

That is the irony of life.

surferdude · October 2006

VictoryGin wrote:

Anyway, I fear any effort is just wasted. If people can't get that the author wrote about some current events in a way to explore deeper pre-existing issues, I just give up. Girls were targeted and killed ---> why aren't people more upset about it?
> oh, maybe it's because this society still has issues about women, quite possibly manifesting themselves in misogyny or sexism.

More men are the victim of violent crime every year in America than women. But there's a hell of a lot more women's shelters than men's shelters.

Men are targeted and killed ---> why aren't people more upset about it?

> oh, maybe it's because this society still has issues about women, man and equality quite possibly manifesting themselves in mysandry or sexism.

catefrances · October 2006

surferdude wrote:

More men are the victim of violent crime every year in America than women. But there's a hell of a lot more women's shelters than men's shelters.

Men are targeted and killed ---> why aren't people more upset about it?
> oh, maybe it's because this society still has issues about women, man and equality quite possibly manifesting themselves in mysandry or sexism.

and these men are targetted and killed by who?

and probably the reason there are more women's shelters than men's shelters beside the higher incidence of violence towards women, could be down to the fact that 'real men don't cry'. a sterotype forced on men by other men.

Ahnimus · October 2006

catefrances wrote:

and these men are targetted and killed by who?

and probably the reason there are more women's shelters than men's shelters beside the higher incidence of violence towards women, could be down to the fact that 'real men don't cry'. a sterotype forced on men by other men.

Other men that have been psychologically abused by a woman. Who the fuck knows, it's irrelevant. 18% of lesbian couples beat the shit out of each other. It's not always a man's fault.

catefrances · October 2006

Ahnimus wrote:

Other men that have been psychologically abused by a woman. Who the fuck knows, it's irrelevant. 18% of lesbian couples beat the shit out of each other. It's not always a man's fault.

it's not irrelevant ahnimus.
if the violence perpetuated against these men is by other men then surely that has to be noted.

and you're right, it isn't always the man's fault. nor was i suggesting it was.

Ahnimus · October 2006

catefrances wrote:

it's not irrelevant ahnimus.
if the violence perpetuated against these men is by other men then surely that has to be noted.

and you're right, it isn't always the man's fault. nor was i suggesting it was.

I already posted the facts, in 1998 there were 1.5 million cases of domestic violence the ratio of male to female victims was roughly 50/50. If 18% of lesbian couples beat each other up, then that brings the ratio of men hitting women down as well. It's all circumstantial though. You can look at the stats anyway you want to. You can add stats, leave stats out. You can do anything to prove your point. But it's irrelevant.

Abookamongstthemany · October 2006

catefrances wrote:

and these men are targetted and killed by who?

and probably the reason there are more women's shelters than men's shelters beside the higher incidence of violence towards women, could be down to the fact that 'real men don't cry'. a sterotype forced on men by other men.

Which could also explain why men don't press charges against women near as often.

catefrances · October 2006

Ahnimus wrote:

I already posted the facts, in 1998 there were 1.5 million cases of domestic violence the ratio of male to female victims was roughly 50/50. If 18% of lesbian couples beat each other up, then that brings the ratio of men hitting women down as well. It's all circumstantial though. You can look at the stats anyway you want to. You can add stats, leave stats out. You can do anything to prove your point. But it's irrelevant.

thank you.
and that would be reported cases of course. any stats on domestic violence that ends in death?

Why Aren't We Shocked?

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