What's the fucking deal with Palestinians?
Comments
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Colorsblending9 wrote:Israel isn't ethnically cleaning anyone, there is no genocide, there is no massmurder.
You obviously know more about this subject then than Ilan Pappe, an Israeli historian and a senior lecturer at Haifa University, and author of 'The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine'.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/1851685553/ref=pe_606_9306590_pe_ar_t1
From a readers review...
'David Ben Gurion, leader of the Zionist movement from the mid-1920's until the 1960's, who wrote in his diary in 1938, "I am for compulsory transfer; I do not see anything immoral in it." This contradicts the Zionists' public claim that they were seizing a land without a people.
Pappe writes of the Israelis' March 1948 plan for evicting the Palestinians, "The orders came with a detailed description of the methods to be employed to forcibly evict the people: large-scale intimidation; laying siege to and bombarding villages and population centres; setting fire to homes, properties and goods; expulsion; demolition; and, finally, planting mines among the rubble to prevent any of the expelled inhabitants from returning."
Between 30 March and 15 May 1948, i.e. before any Arab government intervened, Israeli forces seized 200 villages and expelled 250,000 Palestinians. The Israeli leadership stated, "The principal objective of the operation is the destruction of Arab villages ... the eviction of the villagers." On 9 April, Israeli forces massacred 93 people, including 30 babies, at Deir Yassin. In Haifa, the Israeli commander ordered, "Kill any Arab you encounter."
On 24 May 1948, Ben Gurion wrote, "We will establish a Christian state in Lebanon, the southern border of which will be the Litani River. We will break Transjordan, bomb Amman and destroy its army, and then Syria falls, and if Egypt will still continue to fight - we will bombard Port Said, Alexandria and Cairo. This will be in revenge for what they (the Egyptians, the Aramis and Assyrians) did to our forefathers during Biblical times." These ravings of an insane warmonger hardly betrayed any genuine fear of a `second holocaust'. The Palestinians were suffering massive expulsion, not trying to destroy the Jewish community.
Pappe summarises, "When it created its nation-state, the Zionist movement did not wage a war that `tragically but inevitably' led to the expulsion of `parts of' the indigenous population, but the other way round: the main goal was the ethnic cleansing of all of Palestine, which the movement coveted for its new state. A few weeks after the ethnic cleansing operations began, the neighbouring Arab states sent a small army - small in comparison to their overall military might - to try, in vain, to prevent the ethnic cleansing. The war with the regular Arab armies did not bring the ethnic cleansing operations to a halt until their successful completion in the autumn of 1948."
Overall, the Zionist forces uprooted more than half Palestine's population, 800,000 people, destroyed 531 villages and emptied eleven urban neighbourhoods of their inhabitants. Pappe concludes that this was "a clear-cut case of an ethnic cleansing operation, regarded under international law today as a crime against humanity."0 -
Michael Neumann:
'...America would be far better off on the other side of the Israel/Palestine conflict. It would instantly gain the warm friendship of Arab oil producers and obtain far more valuable allies in the war on terror: not only the goverments of the entire Muslim world, but a good portion of the Muslim fundamentalist movement. The war on terror, which seems so unwinnable, might well be won at nominal cost, and quickly. Perhaps, the most likely scenario would simply involve an embargo on Israel. Sponsored by the U.S in cooperation with the United Nations. There is a chance that Israel would prove intransigent; it has great military resources and could probably buy the materials it needs through sales of military technology. If this happens, Israel might have to be made the object of the kind of coalition forged against Iraq in the first Gulf war. Of course, against Israel the coalition would be far broader and stronger, including all the countries of the former Soviet Union, Iran, Libya, Pakistan, and many others. And though Israel is quite strong enough to persist in it's policis without U.S support, it could not stand up to such a coalition. Israel would be forced to follow it's own best interests and make peace.
Perhaps most important, switching sides would revitalize America's foundering efforts at non-proliferation. There are two man reasons why other countries resist these efforts: fear of American attack, and the outrageous exemption of Israel from non-proliferation initiatives. It is simply absurd to suppose that any serious effort to stem the development of nuclear weapons can proceed in the absence of any attempt to disarm Israel, which is estimated to possess between 200 and 500 nuclear warheads. Having launched it's own satellites, it clearly has the capacity to hit targets anywhere in the world, and it possesses cruise missiles that have hit targets 950 miles away. Until it is forced either to disarm or to establish good relations with it's neighbours, the pace of proliferation will simply increase. On the other hand, U.S efforts to neutralize the Israeli nuclear threat would win support for non-proliferation efforts from Pakistan and Iran. In these circumstances, in a radically different political environment, the problem of North Korea would no longer seem intractable. Meanwhile, the U.S contents itself with hollow victories such as Libya's recent gesture, the nuclear disarmament of a country that never had nuclear weapons in the first place.
In short, one has only to conceive the end of the U.S-Israel alliance to be overwhelmed with the benefits of such a move - very likely, even to Israel itself. That once-beneficial alliance, a legacy of the Cold War, has turned poisonous to America's security and it's future.'0 -
swallowedwords wrote:When you have Islamic terrorists hiding amongst their civilians, the Israeli soldiers have little choice. It's far different than purposely going after innocent civilians, which is what Muslim "Shahids" do. I'm amazed so many "intelligent" people on this board are so damn blind.
Talking of delberately killing innocent civilians...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7414090.stm
Gazan shot dead at blockade demo
Israeli soldiers have fired at a demonstration near a Gaza border crossing, killing one man and injuring others, local medical workers say.
The demonstration, near the Karni commercial crossing into Israel, was called by Hamas in protest at the continuing blockade of the territory.
I'm amazed so many...people on this board are so damn blind.0 -
And yet people still say that if the Palestinians protested peacefully, then they would sympathize with them...Byrnzie wrote:Talking of delberately killing innocent civilians...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7414090.stm
Gazan shot dead at blockade demo
Israeli soldiers have fired at a demonstration near a Gaza border crossing, killing one man and injuring others, local medical workers say.
The demonstration, near the Karni commercial crossing into Israel, was called by Hamas in protest at the continuing blockade of the territory.
I'm amazed so many...people on this board are so damn blind.
people in general are born blind and ignorant. they only wake up if they want to.0 -
swallowedwords wrote:Yes, I've heard of Dubai.
Perhaps, the UAE could bring all those poor Palestinians down and take care of them. They sure can afford it.
So could Israel.0 -
NMyTree wrote:The Jews hang pictures of the soldiers who murder innocent Palistinians.
There are also many Jews who consider Palestinians as insignificant, lower lifeforms. God told them they (the Jews) are his chosen people and many Jews consider themselves above all other people of all the other races and religions. In fact many are quite bigoted, racist and discrimninate harsly against all non-Jews.
Hmmm.....sounds familiar. Just like.......Islamic Extemists. Or Christian Extremists.
What's the common thread, here?
God told all of these people they were the chosen ones. Either god is extremely fickle, or god has a twisted and demented sense of humor and loves to play mean jokes on human beings.
Or God doesn't exist and all this loss of life is over nothing. We all come from the same place, share the same ancestry as human beings. I find it really sad that many can never apprecaite this and we end up with this mess.0 -
If you know anything about biblical history and religion, you'd know that "chosen people" doesn't mean 'Jews are chosen because they're better' or 'because Jews are the chosen people, they think they're better, or somehow more entitled.
Chosen People means people chosen by God to carry out his commandments, and bring good deeds/righteousness to Earth. In sense, from a biblical and historical perspective, they were given this ultimate responsibility.
I don't believe in religion or anything like that, I'm just stating the explanation.0 -
Colorsblending9 wrote:http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1991to_now_campdavid_2000.php
Despite the amount of concessions Israel was prepared to make, Arafat walked out on peace. Right then and there. Peace was attainable, but it was rejected by Arafat.
Norman Finlkelstein:
"It is correct to say that if you frame everything with regards to what Israel WANTED it made huge concessions. However, if you frame things in terms of what Israel was ENTITLED TO under International law then Israel made precisely and exactly ZERO concessions."
Big difference.
You may want to check this out. He says it like it is, which may bother you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbDMam_jGVk0 -
Colorsblending9 wrote:If you know anything about biblical history and religion, you'd know that "chosen people" doesn't mean 'Jews are chosen because they're better' or 'because Jews are the chosen people, they think they're better, or somehow more entitled.
Chosen People means people chosen by God to carry out his commandments, and bring good deeds/righteousness to Earth. In sense, from a biblical and historical perspective, they were given this ultimate responsibility.
I don't believe in religion or anything like that, I'm just stating the explanation.
I understand that. But that's not the point.
I've met and worked with many Jews who not only act but believe they are above all others, because they are the chosen ones. Certainly a bad translation or interpretation on their part. But nonetheless, there are many who consider themselves elite......entitled.....superior because of that.
Let's not forget, it was the Jews who wrote the Bible. So who's surprised they were "Chosen" as the "Chosen Ones":rolleyes:
I'm sure if an Irish Asian wrote the Bible, then, Irish Asians would be all full of themselves as god's "Chosen Ones":D
Of course Jews are not the only ones. There are plenty of Muslims and Christians who believe they are the chosen ones.
If you ask me, I think puppy dogs are the chosen ones. Dogs For God.
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http://www.sixdaywar.org/content/introduction.aspWhat was the Six-Day War? Who were the combatants and why did they fight? How did the war affect the region and how did the world react?
Using research and analysis gathered from respected experts in Middle East history, politics and other related fields, this Web site answers those questions; because to understand the literal and metaphorical map of the modern Middle East — the geographic positions held by the region’s armies and the negotiating positions held by its leaders — one must first understand the Six-Day War, and more importantly, its causes and consequences.
This is true not because the current strife began on June 5, 1967 with the outbreak of war — it did not — but rather for the opposite reason: Many of the attitudes and forces that led to the Six-Day War were the same as those that had fueled conflict in the region since even before Israel’s independence in 1948, and are the same as those that still stoke tensions there today.
That both the Six-Day War and the current conflict stem from the same root issues is evinced by two similar statements uttered almost 40 years apart: In 1967, an Arab participant in the war that had just ended described the fighting as “not a new war but part of the old war” from 1948 — the war against Israel's founding (Associated Press, Lighting Out of Israel, 156). Israeli leaders and pundits would later use a nearly identical description — “a continuation of the (1948) War of Independence” — to characterize the Palestinian violence and Israeli response that began in 2000, the so-called second intifada.
The major factor instigating conflict between Israel and its neighbors — whether in 1967, in 2000 or any other time — has been Arab rejection of the legitimate right of Jews to reconstitute their national home in the Middle East, and Israel’s resultant security concerns.
As far back as 1929, when Arab rioters attacked Jewish communities in Palestine and massacred their inhabitants, the civil and human rights of Jews had been under violent attack. In 1948 it became an existential issue, with six Arab armies attacking the newly independent Israel in an attempt to wipe the state off the map.
Again in 1967, in the run up to the Six-Day War, Israel’s existence seemed to hang in the balance. As the armies of Egypt, Syria and Jordan openly prepared for battle against Israel, and Arab leaders and the Arab "street" called for its destruction, Israel faced frightful choices. “We had already started thinking in terms of annihilation, both national and personal,” explained Lt. Yossi Peled, a Holocaust survivor who was at the time a lieutenant in the Israel army. Israel’s Defense Minister Moshe Dayan, realizing the immense military challenge that would be caused by an Arab attack, told his cabinet: “God help us through if they hit us first.” Chief of Staff Yitzkhak Rabin had a nervous breakdown, which for a short time kept him from his duties.
Israel’s hospitals prepared for mass casualties, not only from the advanced conventional weapons supplied by the Soviets to Egypt and Syria and by the West to Jordan, but also from chemical weapons, which Egypt was known to have used during its war in Yemen.
The tensions continued to mount while Israel’s Prime Minister Levy Eshkol insisted, even as more and more Arab troops massed on the borders, that diplomatic attempts to resolve the crisis be exhausted before Israel would consider military action.
This was the nature of the Arab-Israeli conflict before the Six-Day War, or in other words, before Israel ever occupied the West Bank and Gaza Strip.
Often, in current discussions about the Middle East, Israel’s occupation is mischaracterized as the primary, if not the sole, cause of the conflict rather than an effect of it. Many journalists, unfamiliar with the relevant facts and context, and mistakenly believing that the starting point of Mideast tensions is the "occupation," may present flawed accounts that suggest the resolution of the tension can be achieved more or less simply by ending Israel's presence in the territories. This ahistorical description is found all too often in the U.S. media, but even more pervasively in the European setting.
It is our hope that this Web site will help correct such misperceptions while shedding light on this important event in Middle East history."...believe in lies...to get by...it's divine...whoa...oh, you know what its like..."0 -
http://www.sixdaywar.org/content/threats.asp
In the weeks leading up to the Six Day War, Arab leaders repeatedly threatened Israel with annihilation. Together with Egypt's ejection of United Nations forces, the closing of the Straits of Tiran, and the massing of troops on Israel's northern and southern borders, the fiery rhetoric created a state of existential fear in Israel.
Egypt
"Our aim is the full restoration of the rights of the Palestinian people. In other words, we aim at the destruction of the State of Israel. The immediate aim: perfection of Arab military might. The national aim: the eradication of Israel." – President Nasser of Egypt, November 18, 1965
"Brothers, it is our duty to prepare for the final battle in Palestine." – Nasser, Palestine Day, 1967
"Our basic objective will be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight . . . The mining of Sharm el Sheikh is a confrontation with Israel. Adopting this measure obligates us to be ready to embark on a general war with Israel." – President Nasser of Egypt, May 27, 1967
"We will not accept any ... coexistence with Israel. ... Today the issue is not the establishment of peace between the Arab states and Israel .... The war with Israel is in effect since 1948." – Nasser, May 28, 1967
"The armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon are poised on the borders of Israel . . . . to face the challenge, while standing behind us are the armies of Iraq, Algeria, Kuwait, Sudan and the whole Arab nation. This act will astound the world. Today they will know that the Arabs are arranged for battle, the critical hour has arrived. We have reached the stage of serious action and not declarations." – Nasser, May, 30, 1967 after signing a defense pact with Jordan's King Hussein
"We are now ready to confront Israel .... The issue now at hand is not the Gulf of Aqaba, the Straits of Tiran, or the withdrawal of UNEF, but the ... aggression which took place in Palestine ... with the collaboration of Britain and the United States." – Nasser, June 2, 1967
"Under terms of the military agreement signed with Jordan, Jordanian artillery co-ordinated with the forces of Egypt and Syria is in a position to cut Israel in two at Kalkilya, where Israeli territory between the Jordan armistice line and the Mediterranean Sea is only twelve kilometers wide ... ." – El Akhbar newspaper, Cairo, May 31, 1967
Cairo Radio Statements:
May 19, 1967: "This is our chance Arabs, to deal Israel a mortal blow of annihilation, to blot out its entire presence in our holy land"
May 22, 1967: "The Arab people is firmly resolved to wipe Israel off the map"
May 25, 1967: "The Gulf of Aqaba, by the dictum of history and the protection of our soldiers, is Arab, Arab, Arab."
May 25, 1967: "Millions of Arabs are ... preparing to blow up all of America's interests, all of America's installations, and your entire existence, America."
May 27, 1967: "We challenge you, Eshkol, to try all your weapons. Put them to the test; they will spell Israel's death and annihilation."
May 30, 1967: "With the closing of the Gulf of Akaba, Israel is faced with two alternatives either of which will destroy it; it will either be strangled to death by the Arab military and economic boycott, or it will perish by the fire of the Arab forces encompassing it from the South from the North and from the East."
May 30, 1967: "The world will know that the Arabs are girded for battle as the fateful hour approaches."
Jordan
"All of the Arab armies now surround Israel. The UAR, Iraq, Syria, Jordan, Yemen, Lebanon, Algeria, Sudan, and Kuwait. ... There is no difference between one Arab people and another, no difference between one Arab army and another." – King Hussein of Jordan, after signing the pact with Egypt May 30, 1967
Iraq
"The existence of Israel is an error which must be rectified. This is our opportunity to wipe out the ignominy which has been with us since 1948. Our goal is clear – to wipe Israel off the map. We shall, God willing, meet in Tel Aviv and Haifa." – President Abdel Rahman Aref of Iraq, May 31, 1967
Palestinians
"D-Day is approaching. The Arabs have waited 19 years for this and will not flinch from the war of liberation." – Ahmed Shukairy, Chairman of the Palestine Liberation Organization, May 27, 1967
"This is a fight for the homeland – it is either us or the Israelis. There is no middle road. The Jews of Palestine will have to leave. We will facilitate their departure to their former homes. Any of the old Palestine Jewish population who survive may stay, but it is my impression that none of them will survive." – Ahmed Shukairy, June 1, 1967
"We shall destroy Israel and its inhabitants and as for the survivors – if there are any – the boats are ready to deport them." – Ahmed Shukairy, June 1, 1967, speaking at a Friday sermon in Jerusalem
Syria
Syria's forces are "ready not only to repulse the aggression, but to initiate the act of liberation itself, and to explode the Zionist presence in the Arab homeland. The Syrian army, with its finger on the trigger, is united.... I as a military man, believe that the time has come to enter into a battle of annihilation." – Syrian Defense Minister Hafez Assad, May 20, 1967
"Our two brotherly countries have turned into one mobilized force. The withdrawal of the UN forces ... means 'make way, our forces are on their way to battle.'" – Foreign Minister Makhous on his return from Cairo
Others
"The freedom of the homeland will be completed by the destruction of the Zionist entity and the expulsion of the Americans and the British from the region." – Algerian Prime Minister Houari Boumedienne
"We want war. War is the only way to settle the problem of Israel. The Arabs are ready." – Yemeni Foreign Minister Salam"...believe in lies...to get by...it's divine...whoa...oh, you know what its like..."0 -
NMyTree wrote:I understand that. But that's not the point.
I've met and worked with many Jews who not only act but believe they are above all others, because they are the chosen ones. Certainly a bad translation or interpretation on their part. But nonetheless, there are many who consider themselves elite......entitled.....superior because of that.
Let's not forget, it was the Jews who wrote the Bible. So who's surprised they were "Chosen" as the "Chosen Ones":rolleyes:
I'm sure if an Irish Asian wrote the Bible, then, Irish Asians would be all full of themselves as god's "Chosen Ones":D
Of course Jews are not the only ones. There are plenty of Muslims and Christians who believe they are the chosen ones.
If you ask me, I think puppy dogs are the chosen ones. Dogs For God.
I understand what you are saying...that these Jews might be misinterpreting what it means to be the 'chosen people,' but they act like they are better than everyone none the less.
I am not disputing that those people you mentioned might be assholes, but for you to conclude that these characteristics apply to all Jews is fairly shortsighted.
Furthermore, I believe the reason certain Jews may believe they are 'better than everyone is not due to the historical concept of being 'chosen,' but likely due to some sort of current economic or social standing.
For whatever reason, Jewish incomes in the USA are higher than average. Most likely because immigrants and Jewish culture itself, places huge stress on education. Anyway, I figure wealthy people for the most part will have that 'im better than you attitude,' whether they are Jewish, Christian, Muslim or no religion at all.0 -
Colorsblending9 wrote:
I am not disputing that those people you mentioned might be assholes, but for you to conclude that these characteristics apply to all Jews is fairly shortsighted
Never said all Jews.
My comments were directed at and within the context of those who behave that way and those who perpetrate the attrocities and violence we were discussing.0 -
It's amazing how such a small and initially undeveloped nation managed the time to do all these things: http://www.bjeny.org/pdf/judaic_curicula/Israel/eop/EOPIsraeli%20Acheivements.pdf
while supposedly "murdering Palestinian children" or being "ruthless aggressors in war"
So instead of only looking at the political problems in Israel and problems with Palestine, realize just what Israel and Israelis are all about, and what they have accomplished over the past 60 years.
***Make sure you read about the medical, technological and agricultural inventions in the link I sent.0 -
NMyTree wrote:Never said all Jews.
My comments were directed at and within the context of those who behave that way and those who perpetrate the attrocities and violence we were discussing.
Fair enough.0 -
I'm just wondering why you have been blatantly ignoring byrnzie's posts.Colorsblending9 wrote:I understand what you are saying...that these Jews might be misinterpreting what it means to be the 'chosen people,' but they act like they are better than everyone none the less.
I am not disputing that those people you mentioned might be assholes, but for you to conclude that these characteristics apply to all Jews is fairly shortsighted.
Furthermore, I believe the reason certain Jews may believe they are 'better than everyone is not due to the historical concept of being 'chosen,' but likely due to some sort of current economic or social standing.
For whatever reason, Jewish incomes in the USA are higher than average. Most likely because immigrants and Jewish culture itself, places huge stress on education. Anyway, I figure wealthy people for the most part will have that 'im better than you attitude,' whether they are Jewish, Christian, Muslim or no religion at all.0 -
Colorsblending9 wrote:It's amazing how such a small and initially undeveloped nation managed the time to do all these things: http://www.bjeny.org/pdf/judaic_curicula/Israel/eop/EOPIsraeli%20Acheivements.pdf
while supposedly "murdering Palestinian children" or being "ruthless aggressors in war"
So instead of only looking at the political problems in Israel and problems with Palestine, realize just what Israel and Israelis are all about, and what they have accomplished over the past 60 years.
***Make sure you read about the medical, technological and agricultural inventions in the link I sent.
Again, you're under the misconception that I'm hating Jews or dislike Jews.
I don't. I don't hate anyone (well, maybe except pedophiles, child abusers, rapists and murderers).
You don't have to say those things, because I certainly know and respect that.
This is not about choosing one side (Palestine) or the other side (Israel/Jews).
This is about equal responsibility and equal accountability.0 -
wow, evenkat. that website is obvious propaganda... the fact that you actually consider it a legitimate source is ridiculous. Just take a look and reread these quotes. They show a clear misconception of reality:The major factor instigating conflict between Israel and its neighbors — whether in 1967, in 2000 or any other time — has been Arab rejection of the legitimate right of Jews to reconstitute their national home in the Middle East, and Israel’s resultant security concerns.the Palestinian violence and Israeli response that began in 2000As far back as 1929, when Arab rioters attacked Jewish communities in Palestine and massacred their inhabitants, the civil and human rights of Jews had been under violent attack. In 1948 it became an existential issue, with six Arab armies attacking the newly independent Israel in an attempt to wipe the state off the map.Again in 1967, in the run up to the Six-Day War, Israel’s existence seemed to hang in the balance. As the armies of Egypt, Syria and Jordan openly prepared for battle against Israel, and Arab leaders and the Arab "street" called for its destruction, Israel faced frightful choices. “We had already started thinking in terms of annihilation, both national and personal,” explained Lt. Yossi Peled, a Holocaust survivor who was at the time a lieutenant in the Israel army. Israel’s Defense Minister Moshe Dayan, realizing the immense military challenge that would be caused by an Arab attack, told his cabinet: “God help us through if they hit us first.” Chief of Staff Yitzkhak Rabin had a nervous breakdown, which for a short time kept him from his duties.Israel’s hospitals prepared for mass casualties, not only from the advanced conventional weapons supplied by the Soviets to Egypt and Syria and by the West to Jordan, but also from chemical weapons, which Egypt was known to have used during its war in Yemen.The tensions continued to mount while Israel’s Prime Minister Levy Eshkol insisted, even as more and more Arab troops massed on the borders, that diplomatic attempts to resolve the crisis be exhausted before Israel would consider military action.0
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NMyTree wrote:Again, you're under the misconception that I'm hating Jews or dislike Jews.
I don't. I don't hate anyone (well, maybe except pedophiles, child abusers, rapists and murderers).
You don't have to say those things, because I certainly know and respect that.
This is not about choosing one side (Palestine) or the other side (Israel/Jews).
This is about equal responsibility and equal accountability.
I never said you hated anyone. My point is to:
- Highlight Israel's accomplishments (they deserve recognition)
- Show that the country's focus is on progress, innovation, democracy and education.0 -
Colorsblending9 wrote:I never said you hated anyone. My point is to:
- Highlight Israel's accomplishments (they deserve recognition)
- Show that the country's focus is on progress, innovation, democracy and education.
While oppressing Palestinians through acts of violent aggression, expansion and continuing to snub their noses at International Law and Human Rights?
That's neither progress or democracy.0
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