New citizenship test

hippiemom · November 2006

I got this email from my local newspaper and thought it would make for an interesting discussion topic here. I've got some ideas, but I also have some work that needs to be done right away, so I'll be back later to shoot my mouth off.

Dear Readers,

"What are the colors of the U.S. flag?"

"Who helped the pilgrims in America?"

"What is the White House?"

Are these questions from some kiddie trivia game?

No, they are sample questions taken from the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services Web site -- three of about 30 questions that immigrants must answer in their quest to become U.S. citizens.

If you think they're too simple, you are not alone. The U.S. government agrees, and is trying to come up with more thoughtful questions. The idea isn't to make the test a lot harder, but to make it a "teachable moment," with questions that will explore the meaning of democracy and freedom, American values and ideals.

The new test will be unveiled next month and road tested next year.

In the meantime, perhaps you have some suggestions. What do you think is the most important question that an immigrant should be able to answer on the citizenship test?

Abuskedti · November 2006

Who was Mother Love Bone?

Riot_Rain · November 2006

Not being American myself, I would imagine something like:

Name the 10 Amendments and describe what they mean to you.

Whaddayathink?

know1 · November 2006

What if a current citizen can't answer them - should they be kicked out?

RainDog · November 2006

Riot_Rain wrote:

Not being American myself, I would imagine something like:

Name the 10 Amendments and describe what they mean to you.

Whaddayathink?

Any ten amendments, or are you thinking of a specific ten?

Sorry, just being facetious. The U.S. Constitution has 27 amendments. You're likely refering to the first 10, also known as the Bill of Rights.

And I think that'd be a fine question - and one many Americans couldn't answer.

RainDog · November 2006

know1 wrote:

What if a current citizen can't answer them - should they be kicked out?

Current citizens don't have to take the test. Call it "luck of birth."

know1 · November 2006

RainDog wrote:

Current citizens don't have to take the test. Call it "luck of birth."

I know. So why do we have to make prospective citizens pass a test? I think they should be able to fill out some paperwork and be let in with a minimum of hassle.

RainDog · November 2006

know1 wrote:

I know. So why do we have to make prospective citizens pass a test? I think they should be able to fill out some paperwork and be let in with a minimum of hassle.

There are certain assumptions we have in this country regarding natural born citizens. The main one is that they attend our schools and, theoretically, learn our history. People from other countries who wish to become naturalized are usually adults who likely have been educated in their own country's history but not ours. So a test is a way to get them to study up without having to send them back to first grade.

Riot_Rain · November 2006

RainDog wrote:

Any ten amendments, or are you thinking of a specific ten?

Sorry, just being facetious. The U.S. Constitution has 27 amendments. You're likely refering to the first 10, also known as the Bill of Rights.

And I think that'd be a fine question - and one many Americans couldn't answer.

Hehehe, that'd be me kicked out of the country then!

Abuskedti · November 2006

know1 wrote:

I know. So why do we have to make prospective citizens pass a test? I think they should be able to fill out some paperwork and be let in with a minimum of hassle.

I agree. I don't think the test can be appropriate unless citizenship must be renewed for everyone - which isn't a bad idea.

VictoryGin · November 2006

RainDog wrote:

Any ten amendments, or are you thinking of a specific ten?

Sorry, just being facetious. The U.S. Constitution has 27 amendments. You're likely refering to the first 10, also known as the Bill of Rights.

And I think that'd be a fine question - and one many Americans couldn't answer.

Sadly American social studies education is getting worse. Because the NCLB requires testing of reading/ELA and math (and most recently science), social studies is getting cut from many schools--or at least the time and effort is getting cut. Many teachers are using that time to prepare students for the tested subjects.

Fortunately some states have their own testing in social studies, but there aren't enough.

Why social studies isn't valued here, I don't know. I kind of think it's hypocritical that they require new citizens to know this stuff when they don't value it for their nat-born ones.

know1 · November 2006

RainDog wrote:

There are certain assumptions we have in this country regarding natural born citizens. The main one is that they attend our schools and, theoretically, learn our history. People from other countries who wish to become naturalized are usually adults who likely have been educated in their own country's history but not ours. So a test is a way to get them to study up without having to send them back to first grade.

I think the test is stupid unless you make everyone take it on a periodic basis.

soulsinging · November 2006

Riot_Rain wrote:

Not being American myself, I would imagine something like:

Name the 10 Amendments and describe what they mean to you.

Whaddayathink?

there are about 27 amendments dude.

hippiemom · November 2006

VictoryGin wrote:

Sadly American social studies education is getting worse. Because the NCLB requires testing of reading/ELA and math (and most recently science), social studies is getting cut from many schools--or at least the time and effort is getting cut. Many teachers are using that time to prepare students for the tested subjects.

Fortunately some states have their own testing in social studies, but there aren't enough.

Why social studies isn't valued here, I don't know. I kind of think it's hypocritical that they require new citizens to know this stuff when they don't value it for their nat-born ones.

I would like to see the test become a constitutional literacy exam, rather than an American history trivia quiz. I do think that people who want to become citizens should have some idea what this country is about, and what makes us unique, and that is our constitution. It's not that I want it to be more difficult, I just want it to have some meaning.

It's no surprise to me that NCLB doesn't test social studies knowledge. What would become of the Bush agenda if the entire population had a firm grasp on the constitution? I don't support NCLB for a number of reasons, but I do think there should be a constitutional law class required of all high school seniors. I'm continually amazed by how many well-educated people have very misguided ideas about their rights as citizens, the separation of powers, etc.

RainDog · November 2006

VictoryGin wrote:

Sadly American social studies education is getting worse. Because the NCLB requires testing of reading/ELA and math (and most recently science), social studies is getting cut from many schools--or at least the time and effort is getting cut. Many teachers are using that time to prepare students for the tested subjects.

Fortunately some states have their own testing in social studies, but there aren't enough.

Why social studies isn't valued here, I don't know. I kind of think it's hypocritical that they require new citizens to know this stuff when they don't value it for their nat-born ones.

Richard Dreyfuss was on Bill Maher's show a couple weeks ago, and this, apparently, is one of his primary issues these days (well, Civics in schools, anyway).

The whole time I was watching it, I was all like, damn dude, that shark guy's fuckin' smart.

RainDog · November 2006

know1 wrote:

I think the test is stupid unless you make everyone take it on a periodic basis.

Why periodic? No one has to re-earn their diplomas or degrees, so why should we have to re-test to stay citizens? It's one of those things that, once you earn it, it's yours for good (provided you don't commit treason - and I don't think forgetting who Patrick Henry was counts).

It also makes sense to keep our laws regarding natural born citizens the same. If they were required to take a test, and didn't pass, where would we send them too?

edited to add "and I don't think" to my parenthetical aside. Completely different meaning that way.

know1 · November 2006

RainDog wrote:

Why periodic? No one has to re-earn their diplomas or degrees, so why should we have to re-test to stay citizens? It's one of those things that, once you earn it, it's yours for good (provided you don't commit treason - and I don't think forgetting who Patrick Henry was counts).

It also makes sense to keep our laws regarding natural born citizens the same. If they were required to take a test, and didn't pass, where would we send them too?

edited to add "and I don't think" to my parenthetical aside. Completely different meaning that way.

I can't say that I disagree with you about testing current citizens, so I defer back to my original point which is that I don't think we should test prospective citizens either. Nationalism is something that needs to end, in my opinion.

VictoryGin · November 2006

hippiemom wrote:

I would like to see the test become a constitutional literacy exam, rather than an American history trivia quiz. I do think that people who want to become citizens should have some idea what this country is about, and what makes us unique, and that is our constitution. It's not that I want it to be more difficult, I just want it to have some meaning.

It's no surprise to me that NCLB doesn't test social studies knowledge. What would become of the Bush agenda if the entire population had a firm grasp on the constitution? I don't support NCLB for a number of reasons, but I do think there should be a constitutional law class required of all high school seniors. I'm continually amazed by how many well-educated people have very misguided ideas about their rights as citizens, the separation of powers, etc.

oh sure. it would be fabulous to have an exam that utilized more critical-thinking skills. i'd like to see some essay action. perhaps a nice one that opens with p. henry's supposed quote 'is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?' forbid it, almighty god! i know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!' i think people should write about the factors that led to revolution and their results. there should absolutely be discussion of the declaration, the constitution (and i'd like to see discussion of the difference in opinions of the revolutionaries too. some good antifederalist and federalist action). but soon-to-be-citizens should also know more civics info--gov structure, our rights and responsibilities, etc. i totally agree with you there.

what i find weird is that many, er, southern states actually test in social studies. maybe we just need to wait a few years for these kids dealing with new standards to rise up. although some states have really terrible standards (vague and whatnot) and some states have much better ones. because the standards vary from state to state, you're not ever sure what you're going to get. i had to hold my nose and do a whole lesson on strom thurmond for a south carolina book, for example. they have a whole standard devoted to him, for eighth grade i believe it was.

i have some faith in georgians though. i think their new standards are some of the best i've seen. louisiana, on the other hand, i'm sorry kids. i'll do what i can for you.

hippiemom · November 2006

know1 wrote:

I can't say that I disagree with you about testing current citizens, so I defer back to my original point which is that I don't think we should test prospective citizens either. Nationalism is something that needs to end, in my opinion.

I agree nationalism has to end, but another thing that has to end is people not understanding the laws under which they live. I would give people unlimited opportunities to pass the test, and I'd have no problem testing high school students either.

chopitdown · November 2006

hippiemom wrote:

In the meantime, perhaps you have some suggestions. What do you think is the most important question that an immigrant should be able to answer on the citizenship test?

I think it should go like this:

naturalization officer: What country you from!

applicant: What?

naturalization officer: "What" ain't no country I know! Do they speak English in "What?"

applicant: What?

naturalization officer: English-motherf*#ker-can-you-speak-it?

applicant: Yes.

naturalization officer: Then you understand what I'm sayin'?

applicant: Yes.

naturalization officer: Now describe to me what the constitution says!

applicant: What?

naturalization officer: Say "What" again! C'mon, say "What" again! I dare ya, I double dare ya motherf*#ker, say "What" one more time! Now describe to me what the constitution says!

VictoryGin · November 2006

RainDog wrote:

Richard Dreyfuss was on Bill Maher's show a couple weeks ago, and this, apparently, is one of his primary issues these days (well, Civics in schools, anyway).

The whole time I was watching it, I was all like, damn dude, that shark guy's fuckin' smart.

really? dang, i'm going to have to get his number! and ondemand that episode. thank you. and actually maybe he could talk to my boss, who thinks social studies will never be as important as ela.

it's really sad though. there are so many issues with nclb, but if they're going to test nationally then they should include social studies. i don't think it is any less important than math, ela, or science. and selecting certain subjects like that pushes the others away. of course teachers are going to spend all the time they can on the tested subjects. or else their schools will shut down.

New citizenship test

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