OK guys, the ball's in your court

2

Comments

  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    VictoryGin wrote:
    i wonder what the chances are that the fda would approve something like this.

    probably pretty good. the powers that be dont give a damn about guys having as much sex as they want... it's those slutty women they're trying to keep in line.
  • hippiemom
    hippiemom Posts: 3,326
    soulsinging wrote:
    you'd be amazed at what guys will tell you if they think it will get them laid ;)
    LOL ... no, I don't think I would be, I've heard some good ones :D

    But again, I was talking in terms of a long-term committed relationship where it's probably assumed that you're going to get laid, if not tonight, then sometime soon, so there's much less motivation to lie. Not to mention that a man with strong survival instincts is not going to lie to the woman he lives with about birth control.
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • VictoryGin
    VictoryGin Posts: 1,207
    soulsinging wrote:
    probably pretty good. the powers that be dont give a damn about guys having as much sex as they want... it's those slutty women they're trying to keep in line.

    but even without this pill guys will have as much sex as they want. this pill doesn't really help them have more sex, like viagra does. this pill stops the man from fulfilling his duty of spreading the seed.
    if you wanna be a friend of mine
    cross the river to the eastside
  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    VictoryGin wrote:
    but even without this pill guys will have as much sex as they want. this pill doesn't really help them have more sex, like viagra does. this pill stops the man from fulfilling his duty of spreading the seed.

    my point was more that it does NOT necessarily allow women to have sex more freely, so they have no reason to oppose it. viagra... woohoo! condoms, ok, whatever. this thing, same deal. plan b? WHOA! it will give women some power and control over sex, we must stop it!
  • VictoryGin
    VictoryGin Posts: 1,207
    soulsinging wrote:
    my point was more that it does NOT necessarily allow women to have sex more freely, so they have no reason to oppose it. viagra... woohoo! condoms, ok, whatever. this thing, same deal. plan b? WHOA! it will give women some power and control over sex, we must stop it!

    yeah i understand what you're saying but i'm not talking about the woman's role, i'm talking about the man's role, which is something that is not commonly addressed because there hasn't been a pill like this before.

    this pill would restrict a god-given function for a man. i can see some people having a problem with that in this country. maybe not enough to stop it from being available, but we're far from that anyway. europe usually has nice birth contol measures before we do.
    if you wanna be a friend of mine
    cross the river to the eastside
  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    VictoryGin wrote:
    yeah i understand what you're saying but i'm not talking about the woman's role, i'm talking about the man's role, which is something that is not commonly addressed because there hasn't been a pill like this before.

    this pill would restrict a god-given function for a man. i can see some people having a problem with that in this country. maybe not enough to stop it from being available, but we're far from that anyway. europe usually has nice birth contol measures before we do.

    im not sure i follow. are you saying you think christian groups will oppose it on the same grounds they oppose birth control? or that the pro-life crowd will oppose it by saying people should take responsibility for having sex and not cop out via this pill?
  • VictoryGin
    VictoryGin Posts: 1,207
    soulsinging wrote:
    im not sure i follow. are you saying you think christian groups will oppose it on the same grounds they oppose birth control? or that the pro-life crowd will oppose it by saying people should take responsibility for having sex and not cop out via this pill?

    i'll try to clarify. you were talking about opposition to certain birth control measures for women because some people don't like women having control over their sexuality. women aren't supposed to have power and control. their traditional womanly role in society is to have babies and take care of them and the home. birth control gets women out of that if they want, and some don't like that. well a traditional role for men is to, and i hate to have to type this again because it makes me cringe, but they're supposed to go out and sow their wild oats and spread the seed. society values virility in men. this pill prevents virility, albeit temporarily (though pills for women are also temporary). so a pill for men would negatively affect a traditional male role. i could see that being upsetting for some, and i guess it would be more likely some christian groups, but really anyone who really holds dear traditional gender roles.

    there's also the aspect to consider that for so long birth control is seen as the woman's responsibility since she is the one who gets pregnant. some might have to get over that just because pergnancy doesn't affect their body that they have to take some responsibility because in the end it affects everyone.
    if you wanna be a friend of mine
    cross the river to the eastside
  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    VictoryGin wrote:
    i'll try to clarify. you were talking about opposition to certain birth control measures for women because some people don't like women having control over their sexuality. women aren't supposed to have power and control. their traditional womanly role in society is to have babies and take care of them and the home. birth control gets women out of that if they want, and some don't like that. well a traditional role for men is to, and i hate to have to type this again because it makes me cringe, but they're supposed to go out and sow their wild oats and spread the seed. society values virility in men. this pill prevents virility, albeit temporarily (though pills for women are also temporary). so a pill for men would negatively affect a traditional male role. i could see that being upsetting for some, and i guess it would be more likely some christian groups, but really anyone who really holds dear traditional gender roles.

    there's also the aspect to consider that for so long birth control is seen as the woman's responsibility since she is the one who gets pregnant. some might have to get over that just because pergnancy doesn't affect their body that they have to take some responsibility because in the end it affects everyone.

    i think i mostly agree with all that. i just dont think there will be opposition to this pill becos there HAS been some change on the thinking on gender roles. women's are the same. but i think many of the people who support men "sowing their wild oats" have taken kids out of the occasion... making it more about men having their fun than producing offspring, mainly due to economics. they want men to be able to get that variety, but not have to pay any consequences for it if they aren't ready for it. they still feel that women, on the other hand, need to be kept in place. cos they guy should be able to sleep around without having to worry about that tramp of a woman cheating on him. basically, i see it more as a double standard with respect to power and control than traditional gender roles (which focus more on sex being bad in general, cos from a strict religious standpoint, men shouldn't be sleeping around either).
  • VictoryGin
    VictoryGin Posts: 1,207
    soulsinging wrote:
    i think i mostly agree with all that. i just dont think there will be opposition to this pill becos there HAS been some change on the thinking on gender roles. women's are the same. but i think many of the people who support men "sowing their wild oats" have taken kids out of the occasion... making it more about men having their fun than producing offspring, mainly due to economics. they want men to be able to get that variety, but not have to pay any consequences for it if they aren't ready for it. they still feel that women, on the other hand, need to be kept in place. cos they guy should be able to sleep around without having to worry about that tramp of a woman cheating on him. basically, i see it more as a double standard with respect to power and control than traditional gender roles (which focus more on sex being bad in general, cos from a strict religious standpoint, men shouldn't be sleeping around either).

    sure i don't think there will be a huge public outcry in this sense, but i would definitely think some people will feel this way. traditional gender roles aren't only held by religious people, though many religious people do hold them. i see what you're saying about the oats but virility is about impregnating women. men commonly get congratulated when they git er done. and viagra doesn't ensure, but greatly helps, the situation.

    there wouldn't be double standards if there weren't traditional gender roles.
    if you wanna be a friend of mine
    cross the river to the eastside
  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    VictoryGin wrote:
    sure i don't think there will be a huge public outcry in this sense, but i would definitely think some people will feel this way. traditional gender roles aren't only held by religious people, though many religious people do hold them. i see what you're saying about the oats but virility is about impregnating women. men commonly get congratulated when they git er done. and viagra doesn't ensure, but greatly helps, the situation.

    there wouldn't be double standards if there weren't traditional gender roles.

    ive got to say you must not hang out with guys very often. i dont know anyone who was congratulated when he knocked a girl up. it's more like a death sentence. child support and whatnot. it's more about being able to nail as many girls as possible without getting caught. once you have a kid, the fun stops ;) thus why i dont think this pill will be a big deal. not nearly as big a deal as the pill was back in the day or plan b is today.
  • VictoryGin
    VictoryGin Posts: 1,207
    soulsinging wrote:
    ive got to say you must not hang out with guys very often. i dont know anyone who was congratulated when he knocked a girl up. it's more like a death sentence. child support and whatnot. it's more about being able to nail as many girls as possible without getting caught. once you have a kid, the fun stops ;) thus why i dont think this pill will be a big deal. not nearly as big a deal as the pill was back in the day or plan b is today.

    actually i do hang out with guys often and some don't want to get pregnant, yet others do. however that doesn't matter because i'm not creating societal values just based on my own personal experience. you don't need to look far beyond your social circle to see the value of virility in our greater society.
    if you wanna be a friend of mine
    cross the river to the eastside
  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    VictoryGin wrote:
    actually i do hang out with guys often and some don't want to get pregnant, yet others do. however that doesn't matter because i'm not creating societal values just based on my own personal experience. you don't need to look far beyond your social circle to see the value of virility in our greater society.

    actually, i see the opposite. having big families is weird anymore. virility is less important than ever. what IS important is trophies. a lot of pretty arm candy or promotions at work. things along those lines. it's about conquest and achievement. virility in the child-producing sense seems less important now than ever.
  • VictoryGin
    VictoryGin Posts: 1,207
    soulsinging wrote:
    actually, i see the opposite. having big families is weird anymore. virility is less important than ever. what IS important is trophies. a lot of pretty arm candy or promotions at work. things along those lines. it's about conquest and achievement. virility in the child-producing sense seems less important now than ever.

    virility isn't necessarily about having big families. it's about the capability of making someone pregnant, which is key in regards to masculinity.
    if you wanna be a friend of mine
    cross the river to the eastside
  • surferdude
    surferdude Posts: 2,057
    VictoryGin wrote:
    virility isn't necessarily about having big families. it's about the capability of making someone pregnant, which is key in regards to masculinity.
    Big assumption and completely wrong, at least in all my experiences.
    Of all the traits I associate with masculinity the ability to pregnate someone does not make the list.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • VictoryGin
    VictoryGin Posts: 1,207
    surferdude wrote:
    Big assumption and completely wrong, at least in all my experiences.
    Of all the traits I associate with masculinity the ability to pregnate someone does not make the list.

    this isn't just an assumption of mine. i'm talking about traditional gender traits and roles that have actually existed in our society.

    so i guess you just go against the grain then. kinda like how i'm a feminist, i suppose.
    if you wanna be a friend of mine
    cross the river to the eastside
  • Milhouse VanHouten
    Milhouse VanHouten Posts: 755
    VictoryGin wrote:
    this isn't just an assumption of mine. i'm talking about traditional gender traits and roles that have actually existed in our society.

    go forth and multiply. be all fruitful and shit. it pleases the lord. you wouldn't want to upset the natural way of things, would you?
    "Of course it hurts. You're getting fucked by an elephant."
  • Scubascott
    Scubascott Posts: 815
    Did anyone read about how it works? Sound weird to me. You get to come. . . but you don't get to actually come. . . Wouldn't really be the same I reckon. At least there's less mess to clean up afterwards.
    It doesn't matter if you're male, female, or confused; black, white, brown, red, green, yellow; gay, lesbian; redneck cop, stoned; ugly; military style, doggy style; fat, rich or poor; vegetarian or cannibal; bum, hippie, virgin; famous or drunk-you're either an asshole or you're not!

    -C Addison
  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    Scubascott wrote:
    Did anyone read about how it works? Sound weird to me. You get to come. . . but you don't get to actually come. . . Wouldn't really be the same I reckon. At least there's less mess to clean up afterwards.

    yeah, im gonna miss the money shot...

    anyway, VG, i guess i see your point there. virility is important in that sense... that you COULD if you wanted to. but becos of that, i still wouldnt see a problem with this pill... cos even to guys for whome virility is important they can say "i COULD get her pregnant, i just choose not to cos there are other chicks to nail and job promotions to be had." it fits well into the double standard.
  • surferdude
    surferdude Posts: 2,057
    VictoryGin wrote:
    this isn't just an assumption of mine. i'm talking about traditional gender traits and roles that have actually existed in our society.

    so i guess you just go against the grain then. kinda like how i'm a feminist, i suppose.
    Based on what I've been able to find having kids did not make the list:

    Sociologist Janet Saltzman Chafetz (1974, 35-36) describes seven areas of traditional masculinity:

    Physical--virile, athletic, strong, brave. Sloppy, worry less about appearance and aging;

    Functional--breadwinner, provider;

    Sexual--sexually aggressive, experienced. Single status acceptable; male "caught" by spouse;

    Emotional--unemotional, stoic, don't cry;

    Intellectual--logical, intellectual, rational, objective, scientific, practical, mechanical, public awareness, activity, contributes to society; dogmatic;
    Interpersonal--leader, dominating; disciplinarian; independent, free, individualistic; demanding; and

    Other Personal Characteristics--aggressive, success-orientated, ambitious; proud, egotistical, ambitious; moral, trustworthy; decisive, competitive, uninhibited, adventurous.
    (Levine, 1998, p.13)

    Social scientists Deborah David and Robert Brannon (1976) give the following four rules for establishing masculinity:

    No Sissy Stuff: anything that even remotely hints of femininity is prohibited. A real man must avoid any behavior or characteristic associated with women;

    Be a Big Wheel: masculinity is measured by success, power, and the admiration of others. One must possess wealth, fame, and status to be considered manly;

    Be a Sturdy Oak: manliness requires rationality, toughness, and self-reliance. A man must remain calm in any situation, show no emotion, and admit no weakness;

    Give 'em Hell: men must exude an aura of daring and aggression, and must be willing to take risks, to "go for it" even when reason and fear suggest otherwise.
    (Levine, 1998, p.145)
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    surferdude wrote:
    Based on what I've been able to find having kids did not make the list:

    Sociologist Janet Saltzman Chafetz (1974, 35-36) describes seven areas of traditional masculinity:

    Physical--VIRILE,

    what was that about virility not making the list? isn't the ability to have kids kinda the definition of virility?

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