There ain't gonna be any middle anymore...

BrinkofForever · July 2006

Last week, the 20/20 State of the Union special got me thinking about how divided we as a people actually are. :Video
In a study, they showed that unlike the 50's, 60's and 70's, groups of like-minded individuals are more likely now to navigate to an extreme viewpoint rather than towards a moderate or centrist viewpoint. The study went as far as to point out that like minded liberals and conservatives actually went as far as considering the political consensus of a community before moving into one. Another issue brought up was the effect of news bias and the influence it has over manipulating opinions one way or another.
So my question is this. Is there a real middle anymore? I used to consider myself a centrist in every sense of the term. On one hand, I want little government interfierence in my everyday life, lower taxes, fiscal responsiblitly at every level. On the other hand, I want social freedoms to be protected, our environment to be cared for..and accountablility when it comes to big-business. I believe that social programs that work should be maintained, but the ones that don't should be either reexamined or terminated.
Over the past few years, however, I've found myself moving farther and farther to the left in my thinking. Then again, I wonder if I'm the one moving or does the middle simply not exist anymore? Does it feel like we are being forced to pick sides like children playing dodgeball? This cannot be good for the country as a whole and I wonder where it will lead to in the end.

Discuss.

mammasan · July 2006

Brink wrote:

Last week, the 20/20 State of the Union special got me thinking about how divided we as a people actually are. :Video
In a study, they showed that unlike the 50's, 60's and 70's, groups of like-minded individuals are more likely now to navigate to an extreme viewpoint rather than towards a moderate or centrist viewpoint. The study went as far as to point out that like minded liberals and conservatives actually went as far as considering the political consensus of a community before moving into one. Another issue brought up was the effect of news bias and the influence it has over manipulating opinions one way or another.
So my question is this. Is there a real middle anymore? I used to consider myself a centrist in every sense of the term. On one hand, I want little government interfierence in my everyday life, lower taxes, fiscal responsiblitly at every level. On the other hand, I want social freedoms to be protected, our environment to be cared for..and accountablility when it comes to big-business. I believe that social programs that work should be maintained, but the ones that don't should be either reexamined or terminated.
Over the past few years, however, I've found myself moving farther and farther to the left in my thinking. Then again, I wonder if I'm the one moving or does the middle simply not exist anymore? Does it feel like we are being forced to pick sides like children playing dodgeball? This cannot be good for the country as a whole and I wonder where it will lead to in the end.

Discuss.

I still believe that there is a middle in the political arena. It may seem as if has completely disappeared by I believe it's just because the far right and the far left are just more vocal and better organized.

jamestr1 · July 2006

Brink wrote:

Does it feel like we are being forced to pick sides like children playing dodgeball?

Choose me!

It feels exactly that way, like we can't have a little of both anymore. I think the current administration has done a good job of pushing us to choose with the issues they pressed against us - War, Abortion, Gay Marriage. They pushed those to the front to cover up for their lack of fiscal responsibility.

BrinkofForever · July 2006

mammasan wrote:

I still believe that there is a middle in the political arena. It may seem as if has completely disappeared by I believe it's just because the far right and the far left are just more vocal and better organized.

It's hard to see that. In the last 30 years, our Congress has been voting more and more down party lines. They are afraid to vote honestly because their constituants will turn their backs on them. And when you have the House of Reps members in a constant reelection campaign (I believe the incumbancy rate is somewhere near 98%), you have to wonder what actual good that body is doing for the country.

Abuskedti · July 2006

This could be the day

BrinkofForever · July 2006

jamestr wrote:

Choose me!

It feels exactly that way, like we can't have a little of both anymore. I think the current administration has done a good job of pushing us to choose with the issues they pressed against us - War, Abortion, Gay Marriage. They pushed those to the front to cover up for their lack of fiscal responsibility.

Personally, it saddens me. My dad used to be very centered politically. Then he started listening to Rush Limbaugh in the 90's..and then became glued to Fox News. Now it's difficult to discuss politics with him because even if I approach things from a moderate view point, he becomes very close minded and extreme with his rebuttles.

mammasan · July 2006

Brink wrote:

It's hard to see that. In the last 30 years, our Congress has been voting more and more down party lines. They are afraid to vote honestly because their constituants will turn their backs on them. And when you have the House of Reps members in a constant reelection campaign (I believe the incumbancy rate is somewhere near 98%), you have to wonder what actual good that body is doing for the country.

Well that is because these politicians are playing to their base. Like I said the far right and the far left are much more organized than the moderates. Just think how many organizations out there like MoveOn or People for the American Way there are for the extreme portion of the political spectrum. Now try to name the same type of organizations that represent the moderates. I can't think of any. Politicians will vote in favor of those that fund their campaigns simple as that. So untill the middle organizes itself and, unfortunte as this sounds, starts pumping some money into politics our voices will not be heard or represented in government.

1970RR · July 2006

Brink wrote:

Last week, the 20/20 State of the Union special got me thinking about how divided we as a people actually are. :Video
In a study, they showed that unlike the 50's, 60's and 70's, groups of like-minded individuals are more likely now to navigate to an extreme viewpoint rather than towards a moderate or centrist viewpoint. The study went as far as to point out that like minded liberals and conservatives actually went as far as considering the political consensus of a community before moving into one. Another issue brought up was the effect of news bias and the influence it has over manipulating opinions one way or another.
So my question is this. Is there a real middle anymore? I used to consider myself a centrist in every sense of the term. On one hand, I want little government interfierence in my everyday life, lower taxes, fiscal responsiblitly at every level. On the other hand, I want social freedoms to be protected, our environment to be cared for..and accountablility when it comes to big-business. I believe that social programs that work should be maintained, but the ones that don't should be either reexamined or terminated.
Over the past few years, however, I've found myself moving farther and farther to the left in my thinking. Then again, I wonder if I'm the one moving or does the middle simply not exist anymore? Does it feel like we are being forced to pick sides like children playing dodgeball? This cannot be good for the country as a whole and I wonder where it will lead to in the end.

Discuss.

I think this is a caused by the abundance of information, particularly via the internet. The easy access for almost everyone to vast numbers of websites/blogs, as well as cable television, radio, etc have allowed people to surround themselves with views they agree with and insulate themselves from views they disagree with. In my opinion, this is leading to a more polarized political environment with little middle ground.

BrinkofForever · July 2006

1970RR wrote:

I think this is a caused by the abundance of information, particularly via the internet. The easy access for almost everyone to vast numbers of websites/blogs, as well as cable television, radio, etc have allowed people to surround themselves with views they agree with and insulate themselves from views they disagree with. In my opinion, this is leading to a more polarized political environment with little middle ground.

Good point. I got pretty heavy into blogging last year. My viewpoints and articles started out fairly moderate, but as I made friends and connections in the blogosphere (possibly the worst term since Jamily), what I wrote became more and more liberal in their context. Looking back, I wonder if I have lost that middle ground thinking myself.

know1 · July 2006

Personally, I've got views at both ends and across the spectrum. I'm probably the exception, however.

ryan198 · July 2006

i used to be centrist, perhaps even a bit right (hey...it was the crazy, roaring 90s), but watching what Clinton and Bush II have done to our and other countries has made me disillusioned with this brand of "sham"ocracy that politically, lawfully, and ideologically runs this country. The people have no say, the state really doesn't have a say, in the end it's the billions of dollars of corporate money and interests that runs this country and this world ... it's a shame that economics and the good of the few uber-rich have come to mean more than the literacy, health, and general welfare of the many.

Do I want communism? Probably not...but there has to be something out there better than what we have today no? Lower taxes? How about we go back to the 50's when taxes were similar for the upper/middle/lower classes and very high for the super rich!?!? IF we actually want a society where social mobility is achievable wouldn't his make sense? I don't know there's a few ideas, and no concrete answers or Truth's with a capital T, just my truth and my answers (which I would argue is ok b/c my answer would and should be differrent than everyone elses in this country - that's democratic consensus).

know1 · July 2006

ryan198 wrote:

i used to be centrist, perhaps even a bit right (hey...it was the crazy, roaring 90s), but watching what Clinton and Bush II have done to our and other countries has made me disillusioned with this brand of "sham"ocracy that politically, lawfully, and ideologically runs this country. The people have no say, the state really doesn't have a say, in the end it's the billions of dollars of corporate money and interests that runs this country and this world ... it's a shame that economics and the good of the few uber-rich have come to mean more than the literacy, health, and general welfare of the many.

Do I want communism? Probably not...but there has to be something out there better than what we have today no? Lower taxes? How about we go back to the 50's when taxes were similar for the upper/middle/lower classes and very high for the super rich!?!? IF we actually want a society where social mobility is achievable wouldn't his make sense? I don't know there's a few ideas, and no concrete answers or Truth's with a capital T, just my truth and my answers (which I would argue is ok b/c my answer would and should be differrent than everyone elses in this country - that's democratic consensus).

Why should taxes be higher for the super rich? I think we should all pay a similar rate.

thankyougrandma · July 2006

know1 wrote:

Why should taxes be higher for the super rich? I think we should all pay a similar rate.

That's called redistribution of the wealth, without it the gap between the rich and the poor would already be bigger than it is. I assume it's in your constitution somewhere (could be wrong), i think it's in the canadian one (could also be wrong)...

edit: in the utopic world that we would all want, it wouldn't be needed cause redistribution would be done by the company or rich persons themselves, too bad humans need govt. incencitive (even laws) to make it a reality...

Cosmo · July 2006

know1 wrote:

Personally, I've got views at both ends and across the spectrum. I'm probably the exception, however.

...
From what I can gather... based upon the bulk of your opinions expressed in this specific web bulletin board... I don't think that Right and Right of Center covers the full spectrum.

1970RR · July 2006

thankyougrandma wrote:

That's called redistribution of the wealth, without it the gap between the rich and the poor would already be bigger than it is. I assume it's in your constitution somewhere (could be wrong), i think it's in the canadian one (could also be wrong)...

edit: in the utopic world that we would all want, it wouldn't be needed cause redistribution would be done by the company or rich persons themselves, too bad humans need govt. incencitive (even laws) to make it a reality...

Yes, its in there (16th amendment). However, it says nothing about taxing people at different rates.

thankyougrandma · July 2006

1970RR wrote:

Yes, its in there (16th amendment). However, it says nothing about taxing people at different rates.

(thanks for the info)

but the constitution doesn't tell you how to achieve all the points, it tells you to do it, so taxing higher rates for richer peoples is the policy they apply to make the 16th amendment possible.

Cosmo · July 2006

The problem is not taxes... it's WASTEFUL SPENDING.
An example being the lost millions and counting that's going on in Iraq. We are pouring BILLIONS into fucking Iraq, yet, the HMMWVs still have Hillbilly up armouring. Why is that and why the fuck does it continue?
And as for the rich... we're not talking about the Upper Middle Class renovating their kitchens in Laguna Nigel... we're talking about the Strato-Rich multi-Billionaires out there. You know, a lot of those people are so rich because they're stingy and/or cheap. A 'Fair Tax' system allows for them to run their accounts through loopholes, such as charities setup and run by themselves to keep the money in their hands.
And please, don't bring up the Bill Gates/Warren Buffet charitable contributions... for every one of them... there are hundreds of their rich peers who don't give dime one for 'little people'.
...
I hope Paris Hilton takes a big fucking hit in her inheritance tax because there are a lot of those heirs out there that look at the world the same way that they do... it belongs to them.

ryan198 · July 2006

during the time when taxes were highest for the super rich and lowest for the poor we actually had our closest gap between rich/poor ... now that we are all being taxed relatively similarly look at what's going down.

Cosmo · July 2006

ryan198 wrote:

during the time when taxes were highest for the super rich and lowest for the poor we actually had our closest gap between rich/poor ... now that we are all being taxed relatively similarly look at what's going down.

...
Like compare my salary... which I'm not complaining about... I get paid well for relatively easy work... compare my salary to the C.E.O. of my company. It's fucking ridiculous. And seriously... how much does one individual really need?

know1 · July 2006

Cosmo wrote:

...
From what I can gather... based upon the bulk of your opinions expressed in this specific web bulletin board... I don't think that Right and Right of Center covers the full spectrum.

Really? I'm very much anti-war and anti-death penalty. I believe gun control would be a very good thing and I'm not against gay marriage....

know1 · July 2006

ryan198 wrote:

during the time when taxes were highest for the super rich and lowest for the poor we actually had our closest gap between rich/poor ... now that we are all being taxed relatively similarly look at what's going down.

But is taxing the rich unfairly the answer to that gap?

So you take from the rich, but how much does it really help the poor? Are their lives better, or is it just that the rich now have less money with which to buy things, start companies, employ people, etc. - all of which redistributes wealth.

From what I've seen, taxing just gives more money to the government to spend.

(and please do not kid yourself that everyone is being taxed similarly. The rich are taxed at much higher rates which is unfair, in my opinion)

There ain't gonna be any middle anymore...

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