All I'm saying is give libertarianism a chance.

24

Comments

  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    cincybearcat wrote:
    C'mon, that is simply a cop out. If you think it is murder, than you think it needs to be stopped. And you need a law to stop it. So, if you aren;t for a law against it...you are, for all practical purposes, for it.

    I had forgotten about that issue with them.

    Well most Libertarians that I have met feel that regardless of wether abortion is right or wrong feel that it should be dealt with on a state by state basis. Some libertarians are pro-life because they feel that it is an attack on the fetus. I guess it all boils down to wether you view the fetus as an extension of the mother or a seperate entity. The issue Libertarians agree upon is that the federal government has no right interfereing in this issue.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    cincybearcat wrote:
    C'mon, that is simply a cop out. If you think it is murder, than you think it needs to be stopped. And you need a law to stop it. So, if you aren;t for a law against it...you are, for all practical purposes, for it.

    No, it's not a cop out. Here's why:

    Personally, I believe that abortion is murder. I believe abortion is murder because I believe a fetus is a human life. However, I also believe that another reasonable person can believe that a fetus is not a human life. Above all else, I support every individual's right to act on reason. And therefore, I cannot support a law against abortion. I can only support my own volition to never be involved in an abortion.

    I respect your belief that human life should be protected. But the essence of human life is reasoned choice. And therefore to sacrifice reasoned choice to protect life becomes self-defeating.

    All that said, if you want a government that bans abortion, the Libertarian party is not for you. But please refrain from complaining about any government that then decides to push the non-objective morality of some on the will of others -- you've gotten what you asked for.
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    farfromglorified wrote:
    No, it's not a cop out. Here's why:

    Personally, I believe that abortion is murder. I believe abortion is murder because I believe a fetus is a human life. However, I also believe that another reasonable person can believe that a fetus is not a human life. Above all else, I support every individual's right to act on reason. And therefore, I cannot support a law against abortion. I can only support my own volition to never be involved in an abortion.

    I respect your belief that human life should be protected. But the essence of human life is reasoned choice. And therefore to sacrifice reasoned choice to protect life becomes self-defeating.

    All that said, if you want a government that bans abortion, the Libertarian party is not for you. But please refrain from complaining about any government that then decides to push the non-objective morality of some on the will of others -- you've gotten what you asked for.

    The more I read about Libertarian philosopy the more I'm starting to think that I'm a Libertarian, with a few exceptions, but for the most part I agree with them on many issues.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    mammasan wrote:
    The more I read about Libertarian philosopy the more I'm starting to think that I'm a Libertarian, with a few exceptions, but for the most part I agree with them on many issues.

    That's great. What specific issues do you have problems with?

    One thing I like about the Libertarian party is that it's principled. That means most Libertarians share common principles, but the actual policy ideas that come out of those principles can be diverse so you don't have a lot of "party line" thinking.
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    farfromglorified wrote:
    That's great. What specific issues do you have problems with?

    One thing I like about the Libertarian party is that it's principled. That means most Libertarians share common principles, but the actual policy ideas that come out of those principles can be diverse so you don't have a lot of "party line" thinking.

    Not that I have problem with it I just don't necessarily agree with. Welfare, now I believe in a limited welfare state, nothing like what we have now. While my understanding of libertarian principles is that they do not support any form of a welfare state. Like I said I don't have a major problem with that it's just that I disagree. For the most part I am in agreement with many Libertarian ideals.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    mammasan wrote:
    Not that I have problem with it I just don't necessarily agree with. Welfare, now I believe in a limited welfare state, nothing like what we have now. While my understanding of libertarian principles is that they do not support any form of a welfare state. Like I said I don't have a major problem with that it's just that I disagree. For the most part I am in agreement with many Libertarian ideals.

    Well, it's not tough to marry social services with Libertarianism. It's only tough to marry systematic social services with Libertarianism. That means you won't find too many Libertarians that support federal social services. Furthermore, you won't find many Libertarians that support state-level social services. But you will find many that support such services on a local level. Furthermore, most Libertarians have strong beliefs in community support. They simply believe that each individual has a right to choose their methods of support.

    In Libertarianism, the individual comes first. That means holding as primary the belief that no individual should be sacrificed to society. Because of this, forced participation in a welfare state conflicts with Libertarian principles. But I have found most Libertarians to have a very strong sense of community in the true sense of the word -- a belief that all people share common interests and that no person's interests should be sacrificed to another but rather all should work together for mutual benefit.
  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,962
    farfromglorified wrote:
    No, it's not a cop out. Here's why:

    Personally, I believe that abortion is murder. I believe abortion is murder because I believe a fetus is a human life. However, I also believe that another reasonable person can believe that a fetus is not a human life. Above all else, I support every individual's right to act on reason. And therefore, I cannot support a law against abortion. I can only support my own volition to never be involved in an abortion.

    I respect your belief that human life should be protected. But the essence of human life is reasoned choice. And therefore to sacrifice reasoned choice to protect life becomes self-defeating.

    All that said, if you want a government that bans abortion, the Libertarian party is not for you. But please refrain from complaining about any government that then decides to push the non-objective morality of some on the will of others -- you've gotten what you asked for.

    oh, so if I believe abortion to be murder, thus wanting the same governmental laws about murder to apply to abortion then I am condoning any and all regulation and legislation of morality? A bit of a stretch...no?

    Fine, whatever you say, I guess they aren't for me. You are one hell of a recruiter.

    And I still think it is a cop-out. Leaving it up to the States is a decent compromise IMO.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • Pacomc79
    Pacomc79 Posts: 9,404
    farfromglorified wrote:
    Well, it's not tough to marry social services with Libertarianism. It's only tough to marry systematic social services with Libertarianism. That means you won't find too many Libertarians that support federal social services. Furthermore, you won't find many Libertarians that support state-level social services. But you will find many that support such services on a local level. Furthermore, most Libertarians have strong beliefs in community support. They simply believe that each individual has a right to choose their methods of support.

    In Libertarianism, the individual comes first. That means holding as primary the belief that no individual should be sacrificed to society. Because of this, forced participation in a welfare state conflicts with Libertarian principles. But I have found most Libertarians to have a very strong sense of community in the true sense of the word -- a belief that all people share common interests and that no person's interests should be sacrificed to another but rather all should work together for mutual benefit.

    Very well stated. Being fiscally conservative in no way means we care nothing about our fellow man.
    My Girlfriend said to me..."How many guitars do you need?" and I replied...."How many pairs of shoes do you need?" She got really quiet.
  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,962
    farfromglorified wrote:
    One thing I like about the Libertarian party is that it's principled. That means most Libertarians share common principles, but the actual policy ideas that come out of those principles can be diverse so you don't have a lot of "party line" thinking.

    Unless of course you are talking about abortion. ;)
    hippiemom = goodness
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    cincybearcat wrote:
    oh, so if I believe abortion to be murder, thus wanting the same governmental laws about murder to apply to abortion then I am condoning any and all regulation and legislation of morality? A bit of a stretch...no?

    No, it's not a stretch. In effect you are saying that your morality supercedes the morality of another without offering any logical justification for why you're right and another is wrong.

    It's the typical abortion debate: "abortion is murder" (reasonable) vs "abortion is not murder" (also reasonable), with both sides pretending that their argument is more sound than another. The answer is to leave it up to the individual to choose their own actions based on their reasoned morality. If you don't like abortion, don't participate in one and oppose any state system that forces you to participate. Furthermore, you have every right in the world to judge negatively those who do participate in them.

    However, you cannot have a right to force those who simply hold a different morality than you to act differently without, in effect, giving them the same right.
    Fine, whatever you say, I guess they aren't for me. You are one hell of a recruiter.

    I'm not a recruiter. And if I was, I wouldn't want to recruit someone who doesn't share the principles of the organization. I have no interests in tricking people into believing I share their ideals. What good would that do?
    And I still think it is a cop-out. Leaving it up to the States is a decent compromise IMO.

    Obviously abortion should not be decided on a federal level. Roe V Wade was an unconsitutional ruling and should be reversed. We can certainly agree on that.
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    cincybearcat wrote:
    Unless of course you are talking about abortion. ;)

    What do you mean? There is much diversity within the Libertarian party regarding abortion. Most libertarians believe that abortion should be legal without any state sanctioning or funding provided for abortions. However, there are and have been many pro-life LP candidates.
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    farfromglorified wrote:
    Well, it's not tough to marry social services with Libertarianism. It's only tough to marry systematic social services with Libertarianism. That means you won't find too many Libertarians that support federal social services. Furthermore, you won't find many Libertarians that support state-level social services. But you will find many that support such services on a local level. Furthermore, most Libertarians have strong beliefs in community support. They simply believe that each individual has a right to choose their methods of support.

    In Libertarianism, the individual comes first. That means holding as primary the belief that no individual should be sacrificed to society. Because of this, forced participation in a welfare state conflicts with Libertarian principles. But I have found most Libertarians to have a very strong sense of community in the true sense of the word -- a belief that all people share common interests and that no person's interests should be sacrificed to another but rather all should work together for mutual benefit.

    I see the benefits in that as well. I just believe that people at time may need some form of assistance in order to get back on their feet. I am in favor of government providing that assistance. That's not to say that I believe that the government should provide and support these individuals for the duration of their lives, but temporary assistance (as long as the individual can prove that they are working hard to better themselves and their situation) untill said individual is capable to maintain themselves/family. i don't think that jus tbecause Libertarians don't support a welfaresystem equates to them not caring about their fellow man. I simply see it as having a different approach to remedy the same problem.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,962
    farfromglorified wrote:
    What do you mean? There is much diversity within the Libertarian party regarding abortion. Most libertarians believe that abortion should be legal without any state sanctioning or funding provided for abortions. However, there are and have been many pro-life LP candidates.

    To be honest, I don't really want to go into it with you. I understand what you are saying...but think you are terribly wrong. It's not abut me forcing my moral values on a person, it's about stopping them from forcing their moral values on another (the baby).

    So, if there is no room for someone who holds that view in the Libertarian party, you can count me out for sure. While idealy the world the Libertarians would create might seem terrific, the realities of the world we live in would make it utterly ridiculous unless they amend some of their positions ot allow for the 'imperfect'.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    mammasan wrote:
    I see the benefits in that as well. I just believe that people at time may need some form of assistance in order to get back on their feet. I am in favor of government providing that assistance. That's not to say that I believe that the government should provide and support these individuals for the duration of their lives, but temporary assistance (as long as the individual can prove that they are working hard to better themselves and their situation) untill said individual is capable to maintain themselves/family. i don't think that jus tbecause Libertarians don't support a welfaresystem equates to them not caring about their fellow man. I simply see it as having a different approach to remedy the same problem.

    Why are you in favor of govermnment providing that assistance?
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    cincybearcat wrote:
    To be honest, I don't really want to go into it with you. I understand what you are saying...but think you are terribly wrong. It's not abut me forcing my moral values on a person, it's about stopping them from forcing their moral values on another (the baby).

    So, if there is no room for someone who holds that view in the Libertarian party, you can count me out for sure. While idealy the world the Libertarians would create might seem terrific, the realities of the world we live in would make it utterly ridiculous unless they amend some of their positions ot allow for the 'imperfect'.

    I think there is definetly room for people who view abortion as wrong in the Libertarian party. There are Libertarians out there who are pro-life, but simply state thatthe federal government has no interfering in the issue. The Libertarian canidate I voted for in my senaterace simply states that abortion should be a state by state issue. Not mandated by the state legislature but to be put up for a vote so the people of that state can decide.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    farfromglorified wrote:
    Why are you in favor of govermnment providing that assistance?

    I am in favor because the community you may be a part of may not have the means for providing that assistance. And as I ststedit would be limited assistance, money for necessities such as food, shelter, and basic utilities, providing that you are taking measures to improve your situation. The current system we have now is broken. Welfare abuses and mismanagement are out of control. I believe if an outside private agency is contracted to manage the assest allocated to such programsit would be better managed and the company would be far betterat detecting abuses than any incompitant federal agency.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    cincybearcat wrote:
    To be honest, I don't really want to go into it with you. I understand what you are saying...but think you are terribly wrong. It's not abut me forcing my moral values on a person, it's about stopping them from forcing their moral values on another (the baby).

    But do you understand that their moral values do not consider the baby as a distinct life and that is a perfectly reasonable moral position, as long as it is consistent?

    Look at it this way. Let's say that liberal America decided that every fetus needed to undergo genetic modification while in the womb to make them more "acceptable" citizens. Do you not understand that your position on abortion gives them the right to enact such law? You've handed over the right to make reasoned individual moral judgments from the individual to the state. You're allowing the state to override one reasoned morality with another.
    So, if there is no room for someone who holds that view in the Libertarian party, you can count me out for sure. While idealy the world the Libertarians would create might seem terrific, the realities of the world we live in would make it utterly ridiculous unless they amend some of their positions ot allow for the 'imperfect'.

    Not sure what you mean by this. You may join or vote Libertarian regardless of your beliefs on abortion. You will just be among many who disagree with your position there. If that's fine with you, so be it. I'm just unsure how you can completely marry that particular position with core Libertarian principles, but it's not that big of a deal.
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    mammasan wrote:
    I am in favor because the community you may be a part of may not have the means for providing that assistance. And as I ststedit would be limited assistance, money for necessities such as food, shelter, and basic utilities, providing that you are taking measures to improve your situation. The current system we have now is broken. Welfare abuses and mismanagement are out of control. I believe if an outside private agency is contracted to manage the assest allocated to such programsit would be better managed and the company would be far betterat detecting abuses than any incompitant federal agency.

    Ok, cool. You use the word "contracted" above, which makes me wonder. You say that "an outside private agency is contracted". Contracted by whom?
  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    farfromglorified wrote:
    But do you understand that their moral values do not consider the baby as a distinct life and that is a perfectly reasonable moral position, as long as it is consistent?

    Look at it this way. Let's say that liberal America decided that every fetus needed to undergo genetic modification while in the womb to make them more "acceptable" citizens. Do you not understand that your position on abortion gives them the right to enact such law? You've handed over the right to make reasoned individual moral judgments from the individual to the state. You're allowing the state to override one reasoned morality with another.

    what if my moral values include a darwinian belief in survival of the fittest which means that there is no such thing as murder, only the strong exercising their better survival tactics over the weak. that we are all animals and humans deserve no more consideration or protection than any other animal. how can i be held liable for murder? it is an utterly reasonable moral worldview. you prosecuting me is forcing your moral views that human life is sacred and more valuable than animals on me.
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    farfromglorified wrote:
    Ok, cool. You use the word "contracted" above, which makes me wonder. You say that "an outside private agency is contracted". Contracted by whom?

    By the Federal government to manage the programs. A privately held company, it is my belief, will be more effective in restricting the mismanagement of funds and better equiped to detect abuses. If theydo not run the program effectively they can simply be replaced by another company that will do a better job. The federal government has no one to answer to. If they engage in wastefull spending and do nothing to curb abuses of the system there is no over sight. There is no risk of them lossing out to another campany. Technically they are supposed to answer to us the voters but we all know that is a fabrication.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul

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