Need's a name and work.... about life and society
Comments
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Originally posted by Bibliobella
Hi, personally, i like stories in poetry. However, no matter what poetry I write I remember words of my friend from 11 years ago, Time and Place, Time and Place. It grounds any poem. Where, what, when, is something to think about when writing Haiku, and I think it applies to any poem.
This is an interesting point, Bibliobella.However, I might propose the following. I feel that the more extremely foregrounded the poetic function in the language of a text is, the less it is going to feature elements of story such as time or place. A narrative text that foregrounds "story" (i.e.: events [actions, happenings] and existents [historical and geographical setting and cast of characters]) will be concerned with external time and place. However a poem communicates not so much by what it says as how it says it. Poetic language is more self referential than prose writing: it communicates an impression or a feeling via its use of sound patternings more than its treatment of its subject matter. It uses "discourse" or effects a feeling or state of mind in its choice of linguistic devices such as rhyme, alliteration, assonance or repetition.
I feel that many of Shakespeare's sonnets, for examples of sublime poetic art, aren't as concerned with external as much as with psychological time and place (expressed via poetic devices such as the aformentioned, as well as imagery and metaphor).
I enjoy your thoughts, Bibliobella. Thank you.0 -
Hello! I was listening to Shakespeare's sonnets this weekend, oddly enough. I don't see an example of what you wrote in his sonnets. Could you just send along an example? Thank you!There is no such thing as leftover pizza. There is now pizza and later pizza. - anonymous
The risk I took was calculated, but man, am I bad at math - The Mincing Mockingbird0 -
Sure. I believe Sonnet 54 is a dialogue of self and soul, or physicality and thought. It uses metaphorical images of earth, sea and land to express an interior, emotional and psychological landscape in words. The "grounding" is within the consciousness of the speaker.
If the dull substance of my flesh were thought,
Injurious distance should not stop my way;
For then despite of space I would be brought,
From limits far remote, where thou dost stay.
No matter then although my foot did stand
Upon the farthest earth remov'd from thee;
For nimble thought can jump both sea and land,
As soon as think the place where he would be.
But, ah! thought kills me that I am not thought,
To leap large lengths of miles when thou art gone,
But that so much of earth and water wrought,
I must attend time's leisure with my moan;
Receiving nought by elements so slow
But heavy tears, badges of either's woe.0 -
Here's another one, Sonnet 129. It's obviously about sex but again the grounding is in the interiority of the human.
The expense of spirit in a waste of shame
Is lust in action: and till action, lust
Is perjured, murderous, bloody, full of blame,
Savage, extreme, rude, cruel, not to trust;
Enjoyed no sooner but despised straight;
Past reason hunted; and no sooner had,
Past reason hated, as a swallowed bait,
On purpose laid to make the taker mad.
Mad in pursuit and in possession so;
Had, having, and in quest to have extreme;
A bliss in proof, and proved, a very woe;
Before, a joy proposed; behind a dream.
All this the world well knows; yet none knows well
To shun the heaven that leads men to this hell.0 -
Well, still, with the first one, any traveller would get it by associating it with his/her own travels, which just by association with a person's life presents a visual picture. the "ah" that is the goal of haiku will be felt here because of the sharpness of the language. i'm still working on the second one, but I don't think it's as clean a poem as the first.There is no such thing as leftover pizza. There is now pizza and later pizza. - anonymous
The risk I took was calculated, but man, am I bad at math - The Mincing Mockingbird0 -
True, there is imagery of external landscape used in Sonnet 54, but I feel the speaker is deliberately explaining the process by which he imagines emotions as images of the natural world. The "natural world" of the poem is very much located within the speaker's own psychological sense of time and place rather than being an existent of "story". I suppose this device of Shakespeare's here is a forerunner of what John Ruskin would in 1856 call the "pathetic fallacy", or tendency of writers and artists to attribute to the natural world an interior human sensation or feeling.
Thanks. I enjoy your intelligent observations and opinions very much, Bibliobella. You raise this forum up a notch!0 -
I thought I'd bump this up, for Jesus the Terrorist. Her thread got buried a bit here!0
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I'll retract most of what I wrote earlier about Sonnet 54. First, I'll address Sonnet 129, though. I think out of the two poems, this is the one where the most important part of the poem is the language used. It creates an atmosphere not only by word meaning, but word sound, and the look of the word in the line. The harshness of the words creates a wall between the speaker and the reader, which makes complete sense, because why would Shakespeare want someone to identify with this speaker. The distance adds to the solitude of the speaker, who obviously has issues. "Enjoyed no sooner but despised straight," the reader speaks as if he didn't have a choice to engage, but it doesn't seem like the speaker takes responsibility. I don't think the point of this poem is how does this person view sex, but rather Shakespeare presented the attitude of someone, so extreme, not just someone who got gilted recently, but the words are so harsh, the attitude so negative, it's like the speaker is a ultra-conservative religious icon who uses his position to manipulate thousands.
Now, with Sonnet 54, the language is secondary to the imagery, but the imagery is secondary to a primary human instinct to live the impossible dream, and think it's possible until reality hits. The poem invites the reader to come along for the ride, and leap tall buildings in a single bound or be Don Quixote. The last 6 lines are just blah, poor guy sulking. It is a testament to Shakespeare's use of language that the reader's bubble is burst just like the speaker, though. Still, I think the connection with the reader is primary.
With this in mind, back to the original poem presented by JesusTheTerrorist, , , , Self-evolution is growing, yes?, and whether we want to or not we have to incorporate our experiences into our lives or suffer bad headaches. The speaker in the poem would want to connect with the reader. So, JesusTheTerrorist would want language to focus on what is it about self-evolution that can be understood by any reader. The language should not distance the reader.There is no such thing as leftover pizza. There is now pizza and later pizza. - anonymous
The risk I took was calculated, but man, am I bad at math - The Mincing Mockingbird0 -
I'm in agreement. I'll be back later. Got to carry on reading Joyce for a paper I'm working on!0
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