President George Bush Won't Close Guantanamo: Should It Be Closed?

g under pg under p Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,200
edited October 2008 in A Moving Train
WASHINGTON, October 21, 2008 (AFP) - US President George W. Bush will likely not close the Guantanamo Bay prison for suspected terrorists before handing his successor the keys to the White House in January, the White House said Tuesday.

"We've long said that it won't be closed before the end of the president's term," spokeswoman Dana Perino said of the facility, reviled around the world as a symbol of heavy-handed US "war on terrorism" tactics.


Way to go Mr. President just hand more dirty work over to the next President. A job you could accomplish yourself but I gather it would be better off in Obama or McCain's hands.

All this after 2006 you said you would close Guantanamo but I gather this is NOT the first time you've lied to this country.


Here's the story.....President George Bush won't close Guantanamo.

Peace
*We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti

*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti

*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)


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Comments

  • melodiousmelodious Posts: 1,719
    He wants to save it for you and me....
    all insanity:
    a derivitive of nature.
    nature is god
    god is love
    love is light
  • This prison is bad news. As bad as it sounds, the prison needs to be open. There are some harden terrorists in that compound that need to be dealt with. You cannot release them back in the world. There are far from any rehabilitation.
  • MrBrianMrBrian Posts: 2,672
    jbalicki10 wrote:
    This prison is bad news. As bad as it sounds, the prison needs to be open. There are some harden terrorists in that compound that need to be dealt with. You cannot release them back in the world. There are far from any rehabilitation.

    Give them a chance to defend themselves in court. Give them a fair trial.
    Don't lock up whatever hundreds of people for multiple years.

    Don't torture them, give them rights. Innocent until proven guilty.
  • g under pg under p Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,200
    jbalicki10 wrote:
    This prison is bad news. As bad as it sounds, the prison needs to be open. There are some harden terrorists in that compound that need to be dealt with. You cannot release them back in the world. There are far from any rehabilitation.

    This is NOT about releasing them back into society, it's about closing this place and giving those detained there an oppertunity to heard/tried/charged in court. Just to be charged with whatever crime they've been held there indefinately for.

    Most of these were rounded up in Afghanistan and stamped enemy combatants for no reason or reasons that were made up by other rival tribal leaders for money.

    If they're going to close Gitmo and these people are to be brought before our US courts where do we house them till then? However, Bush should do something BEFORE he hands over his Presidency to someone else to handle just like the economy and most everything else.

    Peace
    *We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti

    *MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
    .....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti

    *The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)


  • MrBrian wrote:
    Give them a chance to defend themselves in court. Give them a fair trial.
    Don't lock up whatever hundreds of people for multiple years.

    Don't torture them, give them rights. Innocent until proven guilty.

    Agreed


    And I'm surprised they would even entertain the idea of closing it since it's become a frequent military line item when it comes to funding.
    Given the horrid condition of the facilities it makes you wonder where the funding goes.
    the Minions
  • MrBrian wrote:
    Give them a chance to defend themselves in court. Give them a fair trial.
    Don't lock up whatever hundreds of people for multiple years.

    Don't torture them, give them rights. Innocent until proven guilty.

    Give them rights?? They are not US citzens.

    Court? What Court could you trial them in? It can't be a US Court because they are not US citizens and were not in the US when the crimes were commited. I am not familar with any World Court. There could be one?? As far as I know they are POWs.

    Most of these people that are detained here are the world's most dangerous people. It would be foolish to release them. The US army should have killed them when they had the chance. Instead, they interrogated them and are left a huge mess of what to do with them. Releasing them should not be an option period.
  • CollinCollin Posts: 4,931
    jbalicki10 wrote:
    Give them rights?? They are not US citzens.

    They are human. There's something called the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
    Court? What Court could you trial them in? It can't be a US Court because they are not US citizens and were not in the US when the crimes were commited. I am not familar with any World Court. There could be one?? As far as I know they are POWs.

    Yes, there are international courts. Even if there weren't, international courts have been established in the past.
    Most of these people that are detained here are the world's most dangerous people. It would be foolish to release them. The US army should have killed them when they had the chance. Instead, they interrogated them and are left a huge mess of what to do with them. Releasing them should not be an option period.

    Dangerous people have rights too. No one is saying they should be released.

    Let's not forget the innocent people in Guantanamo. And how can you even begin to determine who is innocent who is not, what their crimes were, how much they were involved if you don't even give them a fair trial.

    But hey, I like your idea too. Kill them all and we can pretend the US gives a shit about human rights. Hypocrites.
    THANK YOU, LOSTDAWG!


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  • g under pg under p Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,200
    jbalicki10 wrote:
    Give them rights?? They are not US citzens.

    Court? What Court could you trial them in? It can't be a US Court because they are not US citizens and were not in the US when the crimes were commited. I am not familar with any World Court. There could be one?? As far as I know they are POWs.

    Most of these people that are detained here are the world's most dangerous people. It would be foolish to release them. The US army should have killed them when they had the chance. Instead, they interrogated them and are left a huge mess of what to do with them. Releasing them should not be an option period.

    Detention Retention: Are Guantanamo Detainees All Innocent?

    You do realize many there are innocent and we should've just killed them? So why don't just kill while there at Gitmo since you say most are the world's most dangerous people. Yeah right.

    Peace

    Peace
    *We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti

    *MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
    .....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti

    *The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)


  • Collin wrote:
    They are human. There's something called the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.



    Yes, there are international courts. Even if there weren't, international courts have been established in the past.



    Dangerous people have rights too. No one is saying they should be released.

    Let's not forget the innocent people in Guantanamo. And how can you even begin to determine who is innocent who is not, what their crimes were, how much they were involved if you don't even give them a fair trial.

    But hey, I like your idea too. Kill them all and we can pretend the US gives a shit about human rights. Hypocrites.

    Don't know of too many innocent prisoners in Guantanamo. Some were released even though they were in the grey zone for being guilty. Surprisingly they were recaptured by the US when fighting the troops right after they were released. The pows in cuba are pretty much guilty.

    Now what to do with them? Not exactly sure... I think a trial is completely out of the question. The best thing I can think off the top of my head is to just wait out the war on terror and give them back to the country of origin and let them decide what to do with them after the war on terror. POWs are always given back after the war, not during.
  • jimed14jimed14 Posts: 9,488
    jbalicki10 wrote:
    Don't know of too many innocent prisoners in Guantanamo. Some were released even though they were in the grey zone for being guilty. Surprisingly they were recaptured by the US when fighting the troops right after they were released. The pows in cuba are pretty much guilty.

    Now what to do with them? Not exactly sure... I think a trial is completely out of the question. The best thing I can think off the top of my head is to just wait out the war on terror and give them back to the country of origin and let them decide what to do with them after the war on terror. POWs are always given back after the war, not during.

    After the war on terror? You think it's going to end? ever?
    "You're one of the few Red Sox fans I don't mind." - Newch91

    "I don't believe in damn curses. Wake up the damn Bambino and have me face him. Maybe I'll drill him in the ass." --- Pedro Martinez
  • g under pg under p Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,200
    jbalicki10 wrote:
    Don't know of too many innocent prisoners in Guantanamo. Some were released even though they were in the grey zone for being guilty. Surprisingly they were recaptured by the US when fighting the troops right after they were released. The pows in cuba are pretty much guilty.

    Now what to do with them? Not exactly sure... I think a trial is completely out of the question. The best thing I can think off the top of my head is to just wait out the war on terror and give them back to the country of origin and let them decide what to do with them after the war on terror. POWs are always given back after the war, not during.

    Since when detainees at Giitmo were called POW's atleast POW's have rights. As a considered enemy combatant you have no rights.

    Please show me some cases of prisoners released and recaptured my our troops, like you said before they should've killed them in that battle the second time around or why didn't they IF this is true?

    Peace
    *We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti

    *MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
    .....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti

    *The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)


  • CollinCollin Posts: 4,931
    jbalicki10 wrote:
    Don't know of too many innocent prisoners in Guantanamo.

    How do you know?

    Now what to do with them? Not exactly sure... I think a trial is completely out of the question. The best thing I can think off the top of my head is to just wait out the war on terror and give them back to the country of origin and let them decide what to do with them after the war on terror. POWs are always given back after the war, not during.

    Why is a trial completely out of the question?
    THANK YOU, LOSTDAWG!


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  • jimed14 wrote:
    After the war on terror? You think it's going to end? ever?

    Yes, after the war on terror. When we were in the cold war, we had kgb spies for over 30 years. They also had our agents as well just as long... pretty sad but it needed to be done. Thankfully the russians and us agreed to prisoner exchanges during the period.


    Yes I think the war will end. How and when are big questions.
  • Close it. Just because there are prisoners who have done terrible things doesn't mean we should violate human rights. Put them on trial for everyone to see. Show that America is fair. I would like to see our nation move beyond this unfair trial secret imprisonment torture bullshit. We are better than that.
  • g under pg under p Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,200
    jbalicki10 wrote:
    Yes, after the war on terror. When we were in the cold war, we had kgb spies for over 30 years. They also had our agents as well just as long... pretty sad but it needed to be done. Thankfully the russians and us agreed to prisoner exchanges during the period.


    Yes I think the war will end. How and when are big questions.

    The war on terror is set up to NEVER EVER end. Any incident that happens around the world from now until can or will be considered to be part of the WOT.

    Peace
    *We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti

    *MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
    .....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti

    *The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)


  • g under p wrote:
    The war on terror is set up to NEVER EVER end. Any incident that happens around the world from now until can or will be considered to be part of the WOT.

    Peace

    I thought the same thing about USSR. I'm sure people thought the same thing about Germany in the past. I'm sure ancient people though of that about Rome too... This war will end. No one has the answer yet.
  • melodiousmelodious Posts: 1,719
    g under p wrote:
    This is NOT about releasing them back into society, it's about closing this place and giving those detained there an oppertunity to heard/tried/charged in court. Just to be charged with whatever crime they've been held there indefinately for.

    Most of these were rounded up in Afghanistan and stamped enemy combatants for no reason or reasons that were made up by other rival tribal leaders for money.

    If they're going to close Gitmo and these people are to be brought before our US courts where do we house them till then? However, Bush should do something BEFORE he hands over his Presidency to someone else to handle just like the economy and most everything else.

    Peace
    People don't realize there are other people out there who have been picked up and taken into "residence" there for simply not being able to prove citizenship, Grace and Beloved Jammers...

    I am with you on this one....I do agree that we have to deal with atrocious individuals...Look, my state houses Charlie up in Pelican Bay

    It wouldn't surprise me if one day we see detainment camps set on land such as vineyards or other corporate conglomerates in the name of saving energy for slave labor....

    Fair trials....for all...

    please listen to the audio I posted yesterday from rjm....


    I don't agree with people sweep....it's f*kt up b*s*...

    Yes. there are terrorists and people who bomb the world, but is the guy who has a name of garcia or singh really always bad..many people who are put in these camps are people who invoke thought..... or have challenged someone's ego at a wrong place in time...

    prayers for leanord peltier and mumia sent...
    all insanity:
    a derivitive of nature.
    nature is god
    god is love
    love is light
  • g under pg under p Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,200
    *We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti

    *MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
    .....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti

    *The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)


  • g under pg under p Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,200
    * Weeks After Prosecutor's Resignation, US Drops Charges Against 5 Gitmo
    Prisoners -- But Won't Release Them *


    The US military has dropped all charges against five men held at Guantanamo Bay
    prison, but has no plans to release them. The news came just weeks after the
    resignation of Lt. Col. Darrel Vandeveld, who was the prosecutor in all five
    cases. He had accused the military of deliberately withholding evidence that
    could have helped clear them. We speak to Michael Ratner of the Center for
    Constitutional Rights.

    Listen/Watch/Read
    http://www.democracynow.org/2008/10/22/weeks_after_prosecutors_resignation

    Peace
    *We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti

    *MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
    .....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti

    *The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)


  • g under p wrote:
    * Weeks After Prosecutor's Resignation, US Drops Charges Against 5 Gitmo
    Prisoners -- But Won't Release Them *


    The US military has dropped all charges against five men held at Guantanamo Bay
    prison, but has no plans to release them. The news came just weeks after the
    resignation of Lt. Col. Darrel Vandeveld, who was the prosecutor in all five
    cases. He had accused the military of deliberately withholding evidence that
    could have helped clear them. We speak to Michael Ratner of the Center for
    Constitutional Rights.

    Listen/Watch/Read
    http://www.democracynow.org/2008/10/22/weeks_after_prosecutors_resignation

    Peace

    Sorry, I didn't read your article. I'm blocked from it. Anyways, my guess is that charging people for crimes in war is very tuff thing to do. It would be nearly impossible to gain enough evidence on each individual. Hence, WWII after the germans surrender. There were just too many too prosecute. But what we have to remember here is that this people are POWs. You don't release POWs until after the war, or you exchange them during the war. The US does have to follow the Geneva convention rules on this. From what my buddies that served stated they have been well treated.
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,500
    g under p wrote:
    The war on terror is set up to NEVER EVER end. Any incident that happens around the world from now until can or will be considered to be part of the WOT.

    Peace


    I agree with this, the War on Terror is set up to continue for as long as there are people out there committing violent terriorist attacks. Probably forever.

    It should see a focus from the all out war we see now to improved intelligence and tactical strikes.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • g under pg under p Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,200
    I agree with this, the War on Terror is set up to continue for as long as there are people out there committing violent terriorist attacks. Probably forever.

    It should see a focus from the all out war we see now to improved intelligence and tactical strikes.

    For as much as this Country has become a militarized nation this is the perfect war cause it will never end. Our country has now become motivated in the era of war by the powers that be in war profiteering and other hidden agenda.

    Checkout the last two books by Chalmers Johnson.....*Blowback* and especially on militarism *The Sorrows of Empire*

    Peace
    *We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti

    *MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
    .....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti

    *The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)


  • QuakQuak Posts: 14
    jbalicki10 wrote:
    Give them rights?? They are not US citzens.

    Court? What Court could you trial them in? It can't be a US Court because they are not US citizens and were not in the US when the crimes were commited. I am not familar with any World Court. There could be one?? As far as I know they are POWs.

    Most of these people that are detained here are the world's most dangerous people. It would be foolish to release them. The US army should have killed them when they had the chance. Instead, they interrogated them and are left a huge mess of what to do with them. Releasing them should not be an option period.

    What a scary world view you have. Have you ever been outside US? Let me guess the world is black and white, USA is the "always" the good guys and Jesus knows you?
  • mammasanmammasan Posts: 5,656
    jbalicki10 wrote:
    Yes I think the war will end. How and when are big questions.

    Tell me how do you win a war against an ideology. Do you bomb the ideology away or maybe water board it. Tell me what is the way we can, through force, defeat this ideology because that is basically what the "War on Terror" is. You can kill terrorists by the truck load but the ideology still exists and as long as it does you will have oppressed young uneducated muslims being drawn in by that ideology.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,500
    Quak wrote:
    What a scary world view you have. Have you ever been outside US? Let me guess the world is black and white, USA is the "always" the good guys and Jesus knows you?


    Your comments are just as scary.

    You seemed to combine all the sterotypes into one, good work.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • mammasanmammasan Posts: 5,656
    I believe it was Robert Baer who said that if these people over in the Middle East had hope for a future, an education, a job, a means to provide for their families and didn't live under an oppressive regime they would be less likely to strap an explosive vest on and blow themselves up. By using military force, or torture for that matter, you only deepen their hopeless situation.

    In one of his books Baer discusses how religious schools, in places like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, use food to draw in these young men. They feed them and give them and their families food and necessities. This gives them a sense of hope and purpose only to use that as a mean to indoctrinate them into their ideology.

    Take away their despair and you lessen the likelihood that these parasites, like Bin Laden, will be able to take advantage of them.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • Quak wrote:
    What a scary world view you have. Have you ever been outside US? Let me guess the world is black and white, USA is the "always" the good guys and Jesus knows you?

    Rhetorical question: Why do you hate America so much?
  • mammasan wrote:
    Tell me how do you win a war against an ideology. Do you bomb the ideology away or maybe water board it. Tell me what is the way we can, through force, defeat this ideology because that is basically what the "War on Terror" is. You can kill terrorists by the truck load but the ideology still exists and as long as it does you will have oppressed young uneducated muslims being drawn in by that ideology.

    How did we defeat the Soviets and Communist Expansion? Wasn't that an ideology? Yes, you can defeat ideology.
  • g under pg under p Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,200
    jbalicki10 wrote:
    How did we defeat the Soviets and Communist Expansion? Wasn't that an ideology? Yes, you can defeat ideology.

    How can you defeat an idealogy when that idealogy can be anywhere, any country, just about ant person even someone in our country the US. Remember Timothy McVie.

    Peace
    *We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti

    *MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
    .....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti

    *The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)


  • mammasanmammasan Posts: 5,656
    jbalicki10 wrote:
    How did we defeat the Soviets and Communist Expansion? Wasn't that an ideology? Yes, you can defeat ideology.

    So Communism is dead? We defeated the Soviet Union, a nation, we didn't defeat Communism because guess what it is still alive today and growing in areas of South America.

    Also we didn't defeat anyone. The Soviet Union collapsed due to internal reform.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
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