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the fuss over Gibson's business practices

MLC2006MLC2006 Posts: 861
edited July 2006 in Musicians and Gearheads
anybody heard of this? maybe it's old news.

so my friend is looking to start playing guitar, so we went to this music store that I have gone to for years. I have noticed lately that they don't really sell many Gibson guitars anymore but didn't think much of it. so I ask the owner if they sell any of the Epiphone starters packs. he flatly says, "no, we don't sell Gibson or Epiphone products anymore". he then goes into telling me the history of Gibson.

he said that the president or owner or whoever that was like a silent boss for many years has now taking back over and is running things like a tyrant. in addition to firing many of the companies people that have been working there for decades, he has also taken a tactical approach that forces any business that wants to sell their products to comply by ALL their rules. some of the rules are......

1. 50% of ALL guitars on display MUST be Gibson or Epiphone.

2. 20% of ALL annual sales MUST be Gibson or Epiphone (this includes ALL sells, including pianos, trumpets, amps, pedals, drums, etc etc that Gibson doesn't even deal in)

3. store owners MUST buy the guitars that Gibson wants to sell them. even if it is not the model or color that the store owner wants. in other words, the store owner may only want Les Pauls and SGs, but Gibson forces them to buy ANY model and color that Gibson sees fit (he went on to tell me that guitars are just like cars....some colors are popular where other color simply won't sell).

4. store owners MUST sell at least $85,000 worth of Gibson/Epiphone products each year.

the guy told me that he had no problem with condition 4, even though that's a lot of product for a small company to sell in a year. but he said the other 3 are ridiculous and I agree. with the continued popularity of Fender, the rise in quality of lesser brands like Peavey and Schector, the newly affordable models of G&L and PRS, it's kind of crazy to demand that 50% of all guitars be of Gibson brand. it's also crazy to demand 20% of all sells to be Gibson products even though many products that stores sell aren't even available in Gibson brand. and to demand that a store buy whatever Gibson wants is also crazy. some of the models are just lame. not to mention that Gibson acoutics don't historically do well against Martin, Taylor, and Takamine. just kind of funny, I guess.

he told me that he felt that he had been stabbed in the back by Gibson since small storeowners are what kept Gibson from going under in the 1970s.

he then went on to tell me the history of PRS....that the founder was a former Gibson employee that was out to do custom shop one offs. but with the fame that Carlos Santana brought to the PRS, they were forced to mass produce. he said that currently, no Gibson can hold a candle to PRS in the craftsmanship department.

I just found it all to be an interesting story.
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Comments

  • gobrowns19gobrowns19 Posts: 1,447
    I haven't heard that. Interesting. Thanks for passing it along.
    Happiness is only real when shared
  • RhynoRhyno Posts: 304
    I was actually shopping around for an Epiphone lately and kind of ran into the same situation and given a similar story to yours. Not quite as in depth though, but was also told about the quality of the PRS guitars. I'm a newbie and ended up buying an Epiphone Les Paul anyway...got a really good deal.
    Cheers!
    Rhyno

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  • keeponrockinkeeponrockin Posts: 7,446
    Now that I think of my local music store, roughly 50% are Gibson/Epiphone.
    Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
  • Pacomc79Pacomc79 Posts: 9,404
    yeah, we were in a tiff with gibson in 2000 when I was with Guitar Center. GC decided to sell them after two years or so, after they bought mars music.

    Gibson, really thinks that name means a lot and it does to an extent, but if it's a crappy product in my mind, I'm not pushing it. I always let the customer decide, but I want them to get the best product they can afford for the money they spend and that's not always the case with gibson.

    those conditions aren't true in every sense, because some stores sell enough gross in an area, that gibson wants to be in there.

    In the case of PRS it's not entirely accurate. You can find the story at http://www.prsguitars.com I believe. Paul built some custom guitars and managed through some effort to get them into the hands of Mr. Santana backstage at a show, and Carlos loved it, since then he's been playing Paul Reed Smith. The former "Gibson" employee was Ted McCarty. President of Gibson during it's heyday, advancements like Seth Lovers Humbucker and many of the other features that make Les Pauls great were made under his watch. Ted came over to PRS in retirement to advise on a new Les Paul inspired model named the...........McCarty after the man himself. Even though it's inspired, the McCarty is still different in many ways than a les Paul even the single cut "lawsuit" models. It's far from a copy, Gibson just gets their panties in a bunch over competition. I think even if you yourself played a PRS McCarty Singlecut and a Les Paul Standard, blindfolded you'd be easily able to tell the various differences between the two guitars.
    My Girlfriend said to me..."How many guitars do you need?" and I replied...."How many pairs of shoes do you need?" She got really quiet.
  • enharmonicenharmonic Posts: 1,917
    I don't buy the bit about GC must buy the Guitars that Gibson chooses to sell them...the reason being that GC bailed Gibson out of HUGE debt a couple of years ago. Without GC, Gibson probably would have been sold off, and become just another name on a headstock...a company in someone's portfolio.

    If anything, there's some stuff that only GC will get a shot at. I also know that there are certain amounts of stock you have to buy in order to be a Gibson dealer, then a Custom Shop dealer, and finally, a Historic dealer. Not all shops can sell all guitars...they have to pay bigtime to be an "authorized" dealer of the higher end stuff.

    If you're a Gibson dealer, you can't typically sell Heritage, or other instruments that directly compete with Gibson-owned product too.
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  • Pacomc79Pacomc79 Posts: 9,404
    enharmonic wrote:
    I don't buy the bit about GC must buy the Guitars that Gibson chooses to sell them...the reason being that GC bailed Gibson out of HUGE debt a couple of years ago. Without GC, Gibson probably would have been sold off, and become just another name on a headstock...a company in someone's portfolio.

    If anything, there's some stuff that only GC will get a shot at. I also know that there are certain amounts of stock you have to buy in order to be a Gibson dealer, then a Custom Shop dealer, and finally, a Historic dealer. Not all shops can sell all guitars...they have to pay bigtime to be an "authorized" dealer of the higher end stuff.

    If you're a Gibson dealer, you can't typically sell Heritage, or other instruments that directly compete with Gibson-owned product too.


    Bingo. that's it exactly.
    My Girlfriend said to me..."How many guitars do you need?" and I replied...."How many pairs of shoes do you need?" She got really quiet.
  • MLC2006MLC2006 Posts: 861
    enharmonic wrote:
    I don't buy the bit about GC must buy the Guitars that Gibson chooses to sell them...the reason being that GC bailed Gibson out of HUGE debt a couple of years ago. Without GC, Gibson probably would have been sold off, and become just another name on a headstock...a company in someone's portfolio.

    If anything, there's some stuff that only GC will get a shot at. I also know that there are certain amounts of stock you have to buy in order to be a Gibson dealer, then a Custom Shop dealer, and finally, a Historic dealer. Not all shops can sell all guitars...they have to pay bigtime to be an "authorized" dealer of the higher end stuff.

    If you're a Gibson dealer, you can't typically sell Heritage, or other instruments that directly compete with Gibson-owned product too.

    well of course GC is like Wal-Mart or Chevrolet and aren't going to be held to the same standards as a small store. but the main point is that this particular guy has been selling Gibsons in his store for 30+ years and he has now been put through the ringer by them. even though these small stores helped Gibson from going bankrupt in the 70s.

    one more thing he told me off topic....ALL guitars made in China and Indonesia are made in the same factory. so if you have a chinese made strat and chinese made Ibanez knockoff strat, they are the same guitar (diff headstock of course).
  • All Those YesterdaysAll Those Yesterdays Posts: 2,723
    My local guitar store owner was telling me the same stuff about the new rules to sell gibson. Extremely sad. Private own store, been around for ever. Has Fender, Peavey, Ibanez, Gretsch, Ampeg, Dr Z., Orange, Marshal, SWR, Mesa Boogie, and much more, and they competed well with the stupid Guitar Center. Then they got Gibson yanked, because they couldn't meet Gibsons demands.

    I wouldn't be suprise if this is Guitar Centers way of helping destroy the little guys. Make a deal with Gibson to pretty much only allow them to sell gibsons.

    Who knows.
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  • Pacomc79Pacomc79 Posts: 9,404
    MLC2006 wrote:
    well of course GC is like Wal-Mart or Chevrolet and aren't going to be held to the same standards as a small store. but the main point is that this particular guy has been selling Gibsons in his store for 30+ years and he has now been put through the ringer by them. even though these small stores helped Gibson from going bankrupt in the 70s.

    one more thing he told me off topic....ALL guitars made in China and Indonesia are made in the same factory. so if you have a chinese made strat and chinese made Ibanez knockoff strat, they are the same guitar (diff headstock of course).


    same as Korea, Samick pretty much builds everything for everybody.
    My Girlfriend said to me..."How many guitars do you need?" and I replied...."How many pairs of shoes do you need?" She got really quiet.
  • keeponrockinkeeponrockin Posts: 7,446
    Pacomc79 wrote:
    same as Korea, Samick pretty much builds everything for everybody.

    I heard about that.
    Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
  • Pacomc79Pacomc79 Posts: 9,404
    All Those Yesterdays wrote:
    My local guitar store owner was telling me the same stuff about the new rules to sell gibson. Extremely sad. Private own store, been around for ever. Has Fender, Peavey, Ibanez, Gretsch, Ampeg, Dr Z., Orange, Marshal, SWR, Mesa Boogie, and much more, and they competed well with the stupid Guitar Center. Then they got Gibson yanked, because they couldn't meet Gibsons demands.

    I wouldn't be suprise if this is Guitar Centers way of helping destroy the little guys. Make a deal with Gibson to pretty much only allow them to sell gibsons.

    Who knows.



    not at all. Not selling Gibsons doesn't really amount to much to be honest. You get a lot out of buying from quality small stores, and they can all sell used. If it's a Tom Murphy, who cares if it's used?

    That, and you can sell Suhr, and Mcinturff, and Anderson and etc. and etc.

    You don't need to sell Gibson to sell quality stuff, and that's where the gibson model is flawed they think they are the best thing since sliced bread and they are wrong. That's why they had to come crawling back to guitar center in the first place.

    Guitar Center won't destroy the little guys, because they carry stuff GC can't move in 80 to 90 percent of their stores. Atlanta and LA can move anything, but the Marietta store for instance, they aren't selling a 7K Martin or say a Two Rock even a Matchless. If they are lucky they move it in a month, what's more likely, they SIT it to 761 to move it, Pros do not want some 8 year old with greasy chicken fingers gooping up something or cracking the top of a 9K instrument, they ain't buying that from GC. Unless they have a special relationship with a sales person, and other than a select few, those are scarce, unless you go to the small shops.
    My Girlfriend said to me..."How many guitars do you need?" and I replied...."How many pairs of shoes do you need?" She got really quiet.
  • NovawindNovawind Posts: 836
    My two local guitar shops don't sell Gibson or Epiphone anymore. I think the only Epi products they have are the little amps/heads. All the acoustics are Dean/Martin/Alvarez/Ibanez, and all the electrics are Fenders, Jackson (owned by Fender), Ibanez and occasionally some off-brand.
    If idle hands are the devil's workshop, he must not be very productive.

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  • JofZJofZ Posts: 1,276
    There is so much more to this then what you have read.
    Gibson has already leaked their retail store project!
    Henry wants to bring to Gibson what Harley Davidson did with clothing, etc.
    You will see a GIBSON store in every major city, how long? No way of knowing. GC is not an evil company, they are a company and companies are in business to make money! GC, Walmart and Costco are the 3 biggest accounts for Gibson. Am I a fan of GC, no, but that means nothing when it comes to the bottom line. If they make money then the business model works :)

    The fact is as a buyer you need to educate your self so you can be armed with information to help you come out on the better end of the purchase.

    As a small dealer, most are better off not dealing with Gibson. Why would anyone who has an indie store want to deal with advertising restrictions, and lack of profit margin? It makes no sense. At the end of the day, most buyers still want LPs and Strats, the good old standbys out sell the other stuff 10 to 1 and they hold their value over the long term.

    I guess what I am saying is this is a no win situation! So buy used! F em all :)

    Oh and one last thing, GC is notorious for changing the story, anyone notice their online store now? I actually like what GC has done with Gibson, the Crossroads project was awesome, shitty end result, but a great idea. We need more people like GC to step up and buy the highly sought after pieces, this way they can be recreated and enjoyed by many. I just wish it would have been done better.
    WHAT IS THAT NOISE?
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  • surferdudesurferdude Posts: 2,057
    JofZ wrote:
    There is so much more to this then what you have read.
    Gibson has already leaked their retail store project!
    Henry wants to bring to Gibson what Harley Davidson did with clothing, etc.
    Good comparison. I work for Harley and am very familiar with their business practices. A big part of it is about protecting the brand, and creating a business model that acknowledges you are selling a premium, one of a kind product that carries a premium price tag.
    This in no way puts down the independant dealer but merely acknowledges that the business model of the independant retailer does not match Gibson's business model and does nothing to protect and build on the Gibson brand name.
    Maybe 30 years ago Harley had some quality control issues. But once they acknowledged what their product really was they've boomed. Harley's are now the best made bike period. I'm sure Gibson is looking at this as the path to take.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • JofZJofZ Posts: 1,276
    surferdude wrote:
    Good comparison. I work for Harley and am very familiar with their business practices. A big part of it is about protecting the brand, and creating a business model that acknowledges you are selling a premium, one of a kind product that carries a premium price tag.
    This in no way puts down the independant dealer but merely acknowledges that the business model of the independant retailer does not match Gibson's business model and does nothing to protect and build on the Gibson brand name.
    Maybe 30 years ago Harley had some quality control issues. But once they acknowledged what their product really was they've boomed. Harley's are now the best made bike period. I'm sure Gibson is looking at this as the path to take.
    You got it!
    I know the realestate has been secured, and from what I am told Vegas is the launch site. Who knows what Henry will pull :)
    All I know is if Gibson has their own store people will come and come quick!

    Harley sells more in t-shirts then they could ever sell in motorcycles, so it is also about the "image" and assuming the baby boomers have nothing but money to spend Gibson has to come up with stuff that will sell besides guitars. If you pay attention you will see Gibson strategic marketing at play in all sorts of places, from car commericals to reality shows.
    WHAT IS THAT NOISE?
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    The only Forum for players by players.......

    Playing Les Pauls, Teles, Hubers, Gustavssons, Kolls through a Mad Professor amp with a Bob Burt Cab.
    BJF powers my Pedal Board
  • exhaustedexhausted Posts: 6,638
    of course, lots of people laugh at the harley riding blue chippers.

    but it's the $$$$ that counts.
  • JofZJofZ Posts: 1,276
    exhausted wrote:
    of course, lots of people laugh at the harley riding blue chippers.

    but it's the $$$$ that counts.

    I think most of what you read on the internet is sour grapes to be honest. People have to vent! I should have bought MS stock, I should have done this, done that, etc.
    At the end of the day, we should not piss on success. We should embrace it :)
    Wow I should start writing fortune cookies maybe LOL
    WHAT IS THAT NOISE?
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    Playing Les Pauls, Teles, Hubers, Gustavssons, Kolls through a Mad Professor amp with a Bob Burt Cab.
    BJF powers my Pedal Board
  • exhaustedexhausted Posts: 6,638
    yeah, i mean, if the market's there and primed, go for it. seems cold and passionless though.

    just means that lots of people that truly love instruments won't be able to buy them.

    hooray for the used market.

    though i can somewhat afford it, i won't be buying a shiny new 335 when i do finally buy one.
  • surferdudesurferdude Posts: 2,057
    exhausted wrote:
    of course, lots of people laugh at the harley riding blue chippers.

    but it's the $$$$ that counts.
    That's so cynical and not at all correct. It is about making the motorcycling experience as enjoyable and safe as possible. You'd be surprised how much money is spent on cross brand safety through encouraging and subsidizing lessons, and how much is spent onjust getting people into motorcycling regardless of what their first bike may be. We know we manufacture and sell the best motorcycling experience there is. We are confident that once you are into the motorcycling experience that you will end up with one of our products because you want the best experience possible.

    I think you'll be amazed at the increase in quality coming out of Gibson over the next few years. More and more it will be about getting the right guitar into your hands, then providing you with upgrades and customization options making your guitar a one of a kind thing.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • surferdudesurferdude Posts: 2,057
    exhausted wrote:
    yeah, i mean, if the market's there and primed, go for it. seems cold and passionless though.

    just means that lots of people that truly love instruments won't be able to buy them.

    hooray for the used market.

    though i can somewhat afford it, i won't be buying a shiny new 335 when i do finally buy one.
    I can't speak for American prices but I know that Canadian retail prices of Harley's have fallen over the last 5 years. The business model is not based on greed. I can't see any reason to assume that Gibson prices will go up.

    There will be independant Gibson retailers but they will be required to follow prescribed business practices.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • exhaustedexhausted Posts: 6,638
    i can't comment on harley's prices as i have no interest in harleys. i just have my personal feeling about them, loud and annoying as they are and the consensus from the friends i have that are part of the motorcycle community. now granted, within the motorcycle world, there are lots of different communities and i'm sure they all think the rest are assholes. sort of like the import versus american sports car enthusiasts.

    gibson's prices have gone up substantially over the last while (and granted, so have fenders) and i've seen the void at the lower end filled with utter shit from them. that's what's been disappointing.

    and at the same time, i'm not interested in having the capacitors in my guitar annointed by the pope for an extra $1K. 95% of the people buying these things can't hear the difference in these upgrades.

    i'm being too cynical but whenever i encounter "lifestyle" marketing, i get irked. marketing in general irks me. just sell me a good guitar, left-handed, in something other than black for once. :D
  • enharmonicenharmonic Posts: 1,917
    Here's the one and only problem I have with Gibson's business model (this being a totally separate issue from the quality concerns). They will not let their dealers post pictures of their instruments on the web.

    Say I have 5 grand to buy the "mother of all R8's" from a retailer? I can no longer shop all of the Gibson shops on line to find the one I want...at least from a visual sense. Most internet retailers offer a trial period, so if you see something you like...you buy it. If it doesn't have the mojo, you send it back. You can't do that anymore, and that sucks...because I guarantee you that some dealers are getting the premium stuff, while your local Gibson shop might not be getting the best of the best.
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  • moster78moster78 Posts: 1,591
    enharmonic wrote:
    I guarantee you that some dealers are getting the premium stuff, while your local Gibson shop might not be getting the best of the best.

    Yeah, thats what I worry about. In the next few months I'm going to be in the market for a new guitar, and I want some kind of Les Paul. Not sure which model, but it'll damn sure have his name on it, somewhere. Now when the time comes to shell out my hard earned and saved dollars, where do I buy it from? I doubt Guitar Center carries too many, if any, Custom Shop guitars, either reissues, historics, VOS (I get confused between them sometimes). So where the hell else am I supposed to buy my dream axe? Online? And not play it first? Seems crazy to me.
  • enharmonicenharmonic Posts: 1,917
    moster78 wrote:
    Yeah, thats what I worry about. In the next few months I'm going to be in the market for a new guitar, and I want some kind of Les Paul. Not sure which model, but it'll damn sure have his name on it, somewhere. Now when the time comes to shell out my hard earned and saved dollars, where do I buy it from? I doubt Guitar Center carries too many, if any, Custom Shop guitars, either reissues, historics, VOS (I get confused between them sometimes). So where the hell else am I supposed to buy my dream axe? Online? And not play it first? Seems crazy to me.

    To not play it first is certainly bad enough. To not even be allowed to see it online as a consumer is just fucking ridiculous. It's the primary reason why I will never buy a new Gibson.
    new music: http://www.myspace.com/blackbirdsymphonique

    old music: http://www.myspace.com/slowloader
  • seanw1010seanw1010 Posts: 1,205
    http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Fender-American-Series-Stratocaster-HH-Electric-Guitar?sku=515117 -the reason not to buy a gibson:)
    they call them fingers, but i never see them fing. oh, there they go
  • MLC2006MLC2006 Posts: 861
    seanw1010 wrote:
    http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Fender-American-Series-Stratocaster-HH-Electric-Guitar?sku=515117 -the reason not to buy a gibson:)


    I can agree with that, I bought an American made "Lone Star" Stratocaster about 7 years ago and it is a great guitar. though I must admit that the Gibsons are very easy to play and very pretty to look at even if their sound is no better than a Fender. but yeah, that price difference is huge. Fender is a better bang for the buck, imo.
  • elstongunnelstongunn Posts: 285
    surferdude wrote:
    That's so cynical and not at all correct. It is about making the motorcycling experience as enjoyable and safe as possible. You'd be surprised how much money is spent on cross brand safety through encouraging and subsidizing lessons, and how much is spent onjust getting people into motorcycling regardless of what their first bike may be. We know we manufacture and sell the best motorcycling experience there is. We are confident that once you are into the motorcycling experience that you will end up with one of our products because you want the best experience possible.

    I think you'll be amazed at the increase in quality coming out of Gibson over the next few years. More and more it will be about getting the right guitar into your hands, then providing you with upgrades and customization options making your guitar a one of a kind thing.

    i'm a harley rider.. 2003 fxd


    now i just need a gibson:)
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  • Pearl Jam and toastPearl Jam and toast Posts: 4,475
    You'd think eventually that dude will realize those policies are suicidal and reverse it..

    eventually.

    maybe.
    Come on pilgrim you know he loves you..

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    Oh my, they dropped the leash.



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  • enharmonicenharmonic Posts: 1,917
    seanw1010 wrote:
    http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Fender-American-Series-Stratocaster-HH-Electric-Guitar?sku=515117 -the reason not to buy a gibson:)

    HAHAHAHAHA! No. Seriously, no.

    Don't get me wrong, Strats are very cool instruments, but a Strat with humbuckers is stil miles away from a Les Paul. :). The things I DO like though...longer fret scale, lighter instrument, more affordable.

    Aside from that, it would be like sticking a wig on the Nickleback guy and calling him Eddie Vedder...extremely different instruments.
    new music: http://www.myspace.com/blackbirdsymphonique

    old music: http://www.myspace.com/slowloader
  • Pearl Jam and toastPearl Jam and toast Posts: 4,475
    enharmonic wrote:
    HAHAHAHAHA! no.

    Don't get me wrong, Strats are very cool instruments, but a Strat with humbuckers is stil miles away from a Les Paul. :)
    Yeah i know, you can't fake that thick paul tone with pick ups.

    i've been planning on getting a really really nice, top of the line acoustic guitar when i get a job soon..

    i have a child like fixation on wanting the head to read "gibson".. :rolleyes:

    i'll probably buy it, even knowing what i know now.

    damn i'm a tool.
    Come on pilgrim you know he loves you..

    http://www.wishlistfoundation.org

    Oh my, they dropped the leash.



    Morgan Freeman/Clint Eastwood 08' for President!

    "Make our day"
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