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*** the DONALD J TRUMP IS OFFICIALLY A CONVICTED FELON thread ***

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    ikiTikiT USA Posts: 11,025
    2023
    Amen brother
    Bristow 05132010 to Amsterdam 2 06132018
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    HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon Winnipeg Posts: 36,077
    Flight Risk out NOW!

    www.headstonesband.com




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    mfc2006mfc2006 HTOWN Posts: 37,403
    2024
    That was great & 100% spot on.
    I LOVE MUSIC.
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    mace1229mace1229 Posts: 9,042
    I read the indictment. It's essentially the same charge 34 times, with the dates changed to reflect when he signed off on a payment. And each one includes the statement "intent to commit another crime and aid and conceal the commission thereof... " 

    I've been reading about the Cohen charges and what Trump is charged with and these are the questions I have; 

    What is the other crime? The money was to cover up an affair. The affair is not a crime. Paying someone off to keep quiet is not a crime. So what bigger crime are these payments part of that they covered up? None that I can think of. 
    Yes, I know Bragg isn't required to disclose the bigger crime. But come on, you just arrested a former president. It should be obvious what is going on, especially when what the payment was for you arrested him on isn't a crime.

    Some keep bringing up Cohen. Ok. If the other crime is the campaign donation that Cohen plead guilty to, then...
       These payments were not to cover up the donations, the payments were the donation, so that doesn't make sense.
       Is it still even a donation since Trump paid him back, plus an extra 90k for his work?
       Everything I read  with regards to Trump points to the payments being a campaign expense and therefore needed to be reported, not the donation that Cohen plead guilty to. And that is what these charges are for, misrepresentation of funds by not disclosing it. If that is the case, then there would be no bigger crime that is referred to 34 times. So nothing seems to point that what Cohen plead guilty to is the bigger crime here.

    I will have to disagree with those who think the Cohen case is a big factor. the dude plead guilty to 8 felonies, only 2 were connected to Trump. Before you say "well that's still 2 felonies!" I am not convinced he was guilty of those. For the same reasons above, I don't know if he was guilty. Was it really a donation? He was paid back in full and them some. Now it seems more of a reporting issue than a contribution issue. So why did he plead guilty to it? Because he was facing 5 charges of tax fraud  totaling $6 million (unrelated to Trump) that could carry a sentence of 5 years each, plus a charge of bank fraud that could carry a max of 30 years. He was caught dead to rights on those charges, so facing an offer of 3 years and only serving 18 months to plead guilty to everything, I t think any one of us would take that. You'd be an idiot not to. Why bother fighting the smallest of all the charges if it means even you win, you still serve lot more time?

    I'm not saying Trump didn't do anything wrong and he's an outstanding guy. I'm saying I haven't seen any evidence that brings this up from a misdemeanor to a felony. And not that I'm okay with someone with 34 misdemeanors being president, but that matters because the statute of limitations for the misdemeanor is gone.
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    Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 36,955
    2023
    Some of us get it.
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;

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    No. A majority do not. 
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    mickeyratmickeyrat up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 36,323
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
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    Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 36,955
    2023
    No. A majority do not. 
    Do you have polling to suggest a majority doesn’t understand? There’s plenty of waaaaaay smarter legal types offering up explanations backed with facts. That folks choose to ignore them and want to exist in some alternate reality is on them.

    I look forward to POOTWH’s trial and it having its day in court. You know, to clear everything up and clear up his stellar reputation.

    Don’t we have a few NYC business owners that post on here? Maybe they can speak to whether they file false business records 34 times, pay hush money, I mean sign NDAs and misrepresent invoices to avoid taxes. Happens all the time, so I’ve been told.
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;

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    nicknyr15nicknyr15 Posts: 7,923
    edited April 2023
    No. A majority do not. 
    Do you have polling to suggest a majority doesn’t understand? There’s plenty of waaaaaay smarter legal types offering up explanations backed with facts. That folks choose to ignore them and want to exist in some alternate reality is on them.

    I look forward to POOTWH’s trial and it having its day in court. You know, to clear everything up and clear up his stellar reputation.

    Don’t we have a few NYC business owners that post on here? Maybe they can speak to whether they file false business records 34 times, pay hush money, I mean sign NDAs and misrepresent invoices to avoid taxes. Happens all the time, so I’ve been told.
    .
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    Merkin BallerMerkin Baller Posts: 10,633

    Where can I go to review the evidence that convinced the 23 person grand jury to indict the former president? 
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    Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 8,728

    Where can I go to review the evidence that convinced the 23 person grand jury to indict the former president? 
    https://www.lawfareblog.com/new-york-trump-indictment-unsealed
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    Merkin BallerMerkin Baller Posts: 10,633

    Where can I go to review the evidence that convinced the 23 person grand jury to indict the former president? 
    https://www.lawfareblog.com/new-york-trump-indictment-unsealed
    Thanks.
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    Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 36,955
    2023

    Where can I go to review the evidence that convinced the 23 person grand jury to indict the former president? 
    https://www.lawfareblog.com/new-york-trump-indictment-unsealed
    I suggest folks read both documents.
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;

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    Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 36,955
    2023
    Dots! Who likes dots? Bottom of page 12, footnote. MMMMMMMM, like dots.

    1 This Statement of Facts contains certain of the information that is relevant to the events described herein, and does not contain all facts relevant to the charged conduct.

    I look forward to the discovery phase of the pre-trial motions.
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;

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    KatKat There's a lot to be said for nowhere. Posts: 4,777
    edited April 2023
    I saw a clip with Ari Melber of MSNBC talking with an attorney for the defendant and it seemed to me that they're going to try blaming it all on Michael Cohen. Time will tell. 
    Post edited by Kat on
    Falling down,...not staying down
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    mace1229mace1229 Posts: 9,042
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    josevolutionjosevolution Posts: 28,436
    2025
    No. A majority do not. 
    Yes the deplorable’s will never ever get it 
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
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    Merkin BallerMerkin Baller Posts: 10,633
    mace1229 said:
    There's a couple mentions in the statement of facts. 
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    mace1229mace1229 Posts: 9,042

    Where can I go to review the evidence that convinced the 23 person grand jury to indict the former president? 
    https://www.lawfareblog.com/new-york-trump-indictment-unsealed
    I suggest folks read both documents.
    I had only read the indictment. I hadn't read the Statement of Facts that followed.

    That did answer most of the questions I had. And it sounds like he does lay out what the bigger crime was. He says multiple times the payment itself was illegal. 
    Seems odd because I've heard 100 times this week that there was no mention of the other crime and that he doesn't have to, but he says it "Lawyer A made the $130,000 payment through a shell corporation he set up and funded at a bank in Manhattan. This payment was illegal, and Lawyer A has since pleaded guilty to making an illegal campaign contribution."

    But I've also heard many times that the payment was fine, it was how it was recorded was wrong. I don't know, I guess we'll see in the coming months what it is.

    If hush money payment is illegal during a campaign, then I will admit my previous posts are wrong. But if not, and the only illegal part is how they recorded it, then that still stands there is no bigger crime to make this into a felony. 
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    Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 36,955
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;

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    mace1229mace1229 Posts: 9,042
    mace1229 said:
    There's a couple mentions in the statement of facts. 
    Yeah, I just saw that part. Its not in the indictment though. 
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    ikiTikiT USA Posts: 11,025
    2023
    It's the ACCOUNTING that's the problem.
    Bristow 05132010 to Amsterdam 2 06132018
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    Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 8,728
    mace1229 said:

    Where can I go to review the evidence that convinced the 23 person grand jury to indict the former president? 
    https://www.lawfareblog.com/new-york-trump-indictment-unsealed
    I suggest folks read both documents.
    I had only read the indictment. I hadn't read the Statement of Facts that followed.

    That did answer most of the questions I had. And it sounds like he does lay out what the bigger crime was. He says multiple times the payment itself was illegal. 
    Seems odd because I've heard 100 times this week that there was no mention of the other crime and that he doesn't have to, but he says it "Lawyer A made the $130,000 payment through a shell corporation he set up and funded at a bank in Manhattan. This payment was illegal, and Lawyer A has since pleaded guilty to making an illegal campaign contribution."

    But I've also heard many times that the payment was fine, it was how it was recorded was wrong. I don't know, I guess we'll see in the coming months what it is.

    If hush money payment is illegal during a campaign, then I will admit my previous posts are wrong. But if not, and the only illegal part is how they recorded it, then that still stands there is no bigger crime to make this into a felony. 
    My guess is that you’re hearing people say the payment was fine is because Cohen didn’t go to trial about it, he pleaded guilty instead, so using mental gymnastics, someone could say this is “okay”. 
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    ikiTikiT USA Posts: 11,025
    2023
    Kat said:
    I saw a clip with Ari Melber of MSNBC talking with an attorney for the defendant and it seemed to me that they're going to try blaming it all on Michael Cohen. Time will tell. 
    Since CNN fired Chris Cuomo and moved D. Lemon to the AM, MSNBC is must-see nightly news at this point. 
    Ari Melber is the best of the group, AND he's from Seattle. 


    Bristow 05132010 to Amsterdam 2 06132018
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    Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 36,955
    2023
    ikiT said:
    Kat said:
    I saw a clip with Ari Melber of MSNBC talking with an attorney for the defendant and it seemed to me that they're going to try blaming it all on Michael Cohen. Time will tell. 
    Since CNN fired Chris Cuomo and moved D. Lemon to the AM, MSNBC is must-see nightly news at this point. 
    Ari Melber is the best of the group, AND he's from Seattle. 


    The look of a guilty it.
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;

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    mace1229mace1229 Posts: 9,042
    edited April 2023
    mace1229 said:

    Where can I go to review the evidence that convinced the 23 person grand jury to indict the former president? 
    https://www.lawfareblog.com/new-york-trump-indictment-unsealed
    I suggest folks read both documents.
    I had only read the indictment. I hadn't read the Statement of Facts that followed.

    That did answer most of the questions I had. And it sounds like he does lay out what the bigger crime was. He says multiple times the payment itself was illegal. 
    Seems odd because I've heard 100 times this week that there was no mention of the other crime and that he doesn't have to, but he says it "Lawyer A made the $130,000 payment through a shell corporation he set up and funded at a bank in Manhattan. This payment was illegal, and Lawyer A has since pleaded guilty to making an illegal campaign contribution."

    But I've also heard many times that the payment was fine, it was how it was recorded was wrong. I don't know, I guess we'll see in the coming months what it is.

    If hush money payment is illegal during a campaign, then I will admit my previous posts are wrong. But if not, and the only illegal part is how they recorded it, then that still stands there is no bigger crime to make this into a felony. 
    My guess is that you’re hearing people say the payment was fine is because Cohen didn’t go to trial about it, he pleaded guilty instead, so using mental gymnastics, someone could say this is “okay”. 
    I think with Cohen the argument was since he paid for it initially (and Trump paid him back with monthly installments disguised as legal fees) it should have been considered a donation, and was above the legal limit for a donation. Paying for silence was fine, but coming from a third party like Cohen made it a donation. That was my understanding of it.
    Post edited by mace1229 on
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    Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 36,955
    2023
    Have folks not learned a thing from Tricky Dick and Watergate? "Its not the crime, its the coverup."

    INTRODUCTION 1.

    The defendant DONALD J. TRUMP repeatedly and fraudulently falsified New York business records to conceal criminal conduct that hid damaging information from the voting public during the 2016 presidential election.

    2. From August 2015 to December 2017, the Defendant orchestrated a scheme with others to influence the 2016 presidential election by identifying and purchasing negative information about him to suppress its publication and benefit the Defendant’s electoral prospects. In order to execute the unlawful scheme, the participants violated election laws and made and caused false entries in the business records of various entities in New York. The participants also took steps that mischaracterized, for tax purposes, the true nature of the payments made in furtherance of the scheme.

    3. One component of this scheme was that, at the Defendant’s request, a lawyer who then worked for the Trump Organization as Special Counsel to Defendant (“Lawyer A”), covertly paid $130,000 to an adult film actress shortly before the election to prevent her from publicizing a sexual encounter with the Defendant. Lawyer A made the $130,000 payment through a shell corporation he set up and funded at a bank in Manhattan. This payment was illegal, and Lawyer A has since pleaded guilty to making an illegal campaign contribution and served time in prison. Further, false entries were made in New York business records to effectuate this payment, separate and apart from the New York business records used to conceal the payment.

    4. After the election, the Defendant reimbursed Lawyer A for the illegal payment through a series of monthly checks, first from the Donald J. Trump Revocable Trust (the “Defendant’s Trust”)—a Trust created under the laws of New York which held the Trump Organization entity assets after the Defendant was elected President—and then from the Defendant’s bank account. Each check was processed by the Trump Organization, and each check was disguised as a payment for legal services rendered in a given month of 2017 pursuant to a retainer agreement. The payment records, kept and maintained by the Trump Organization, were false New York business records. In truth, there was no retainer agreement, and Lawyer A was not being paid for legal services rendered in 2017. The Defendant caused his entities’ business records to be falsified to disguise his and others’ criminal conduct.
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;

    Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.

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  • Options
    Lerxst1992Lerxst1992 Posts: 6,220
    edited April 2023
    mace1229 said:
    I read the indictment. It's essentially the same charge 34 times, with the dates changed to reflect when he signed off on a payment. And each one includes the statement "intent to commit another crime and aid and conceal the commission thereof... " 

    I've been reading about the Cohen charges and what Trump is charged with and these are the questions I have; 

    What is the other crime? The money was to cover up an affair. The affair is not a crime. Paying someone off to keep quiet is not a crime. So what bigger crime are these payments part of that they covered up? None that I can think of. 
    Yes, I know Bragg isn't required to disclose the bigger crime. But come on, you just arrested a former president. It should be obvious what is going on, especially when what the payment was for you arrested him on isn't a crime.

    Some keep bringing up Cohen. Ok. If the other crime is the campaign donation that Cohen plead guilty to, then...
       These payments were not to cover up the donations, the payments were the donation, so that doesn't make sense.
       Is it still even a donation since Trump paid him back, plus an extra 90k for his work?
       Everything I read  with regards to Trump points to the payments being a campaign expense and therefore needed to be reported, not the donation that Cohen plead guilty to. And that is what these charges are for, misrepresentation of funds by not disclosing it. If that is the case, then there would be no bigger crime that is referred to 34 times. So nothing seems to point that what Cohen plead guilty to is the bigger crime here.

    I will have to disagree with those who think the Cohen case is a big factor. the dude plead guilty to 8 felonies, only 2 were connected to Trump. Before you say "well that's still 2 felonies!" I am not convinced he was guilty of those. For the same reasons above, I don't know if he was guilty. Was it really a donation? He was paid back in full and them some. Now it seems more of a reporting issue than a contribution issue. So why did he plead guilty to it? Because he was facing 5 charges of tax fraud  totaling $6 million (unrelated to Trump) that could carry a sentence of 5 years each, plus a charge of bank fraud that could carry a max of 30 years. He was caught dead to rights on those charges, so facing an offer of 3 years and only serving 18 months to plead guilty to everything, I t think any one of us would take that. You'd be an idiot not to. Why bother fighting the smallest of all the charges if it means even you win, you still serve lot more time?

    I'm not saying Trump didn't do anything wrong and he's an outstanding guy. I'm saying I haven't seen any evidence that brings this up from a misdemeanor to a felony. And not that I'm okay with someone with 34 misdemeanors being president, but that matters because the statute of limitations for the misdemeanor is gone.


    I thing you are missing the falsification of business records and defrauding voters angle, among many potential related crimes, but we can full stop all of this with two words…tax fraud.

     No way he gets around that, because if he goes with the protect family argument, he should have paid the bribe with personal funds,  not business funds for which he likely took a tax deduction and you and I subsidized about $60,000 of the cost to Stormy.

    edit, one of the payments was from his trust, another from him personally. I am assuming trump took tax deductions for this…possibly not.
    Post edited by Lerxst1992 on
  • Options
    mace1229mace1229 Posts: 9,042
    edited April 2023
    mace1229 said:
    I read the indictment. It's essentially the same charge 34 times, with the dates changed to reflect when he signed off on a payment. And each one includes the statement "intent to commit another crime and aid and conceal the commission thereof... " 

    I've been reading about the Cohen charges and what Trump is charged with and these are the questions I have; 

    What is the other crime? The money was to cover up an affair. The affair is not a crime. Paying someone off to keep quiet is not a crime. So what bigger crime are these payments part of that they covered up? None that I can think of. 
    Yes, I know Bragg isn't required to disclose the bigger crime. But come on, you just arrested a former president. It should be obvious what is going on, especially when what the payment was for you arrested him on isn't a crime.

    Some keep bringing up Cohen. Ok. If the other crime is the campaign donation that Cohen plead guilty to, then...
       These payments were not to cover up the donations, the payments were the donation, so that doesn't make sense.
       Is it still even a donation since Trump paid him back, plus an extra 90k for his work?
       Everything I read  with regards to Trump points to the payments being a campaign expense and therefore needed to be reported, not the donation that Cohen plead guilty to. And that is what these charges are for, misrepresentation of funds by not disclosing it. If that is the case, then there would be no bigger crime that is referred to 34 times. So nothing seems to point that what Cohen plead guilty to is the bigger crime here.

    I will have to disagree with those who think the Cohen case is a big factor. the dude plead guilty to 8 felonies, only 2 were connected to Trump. Before you say "well that's still 2 felonies!" I am not convinced he was guilty of those. For the same reasons above, I don't know if he was guilty. Was it really a donation? He was paid back in full and them some. Now it seems more of a reporting issue than a contribution issue. So why did he plead guilty to it? Because he was facing 5 charges of tax fraud  totaling $6 million (unrelated to Trump) that could carry a sentence of 5 years each, plus a charge of bank fraud that could carry a max of 30 years. He was caught dead to rights on those charges, so facing an offer of 3 years and only serving 18 months to plead guilty to everything, I t think any one of us would take that. You'd be an idiot not to. Why bother fighting the smallest of all the charges if it means even you win, you still serve lot more time?

    I'm not saying Trump didn't do anything wrong and he's an outstanding guy. I'm saying I haven't seen any evidence that brings this up from a misdemeanor to a felony. And not that I'm okay with someone with 34 misdemeanors being president, but that matters because the statute of limitations for the misdemeanor is gone.


    I thing you are missing the falsification of business records and defrauding voters angle, among many potential related crimes, but we can full stop all of this with two words…tax fraud.

     No way he gets around that, because if he goes with the protect family argument, he should have paid the bribe with personal funds,  not business funds for which he likely took a tax deduction and you and I subsidized about $60,000 of the cost to Stormy.

    edit, one of the payments was from his trust, another from him personally. I am assuming trump took tax deductions for this…possibly not.
    I didn't even think of that angle. But that actually doesn't make sense. One of the arguments is that this was a campaign expense and not personal, and the whole reason it should have been reported as hush money. So therefore it would be tax deductible. Several have argued here how it can't be personal because it benefitted his campaign, because if it was personal then there is no case here.
    So it can't be both, a campaign expense that he should have paid with personal money and paid taxes on. 
    Post edited by mace1229 on
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