Report details sexual abuse by more than 300 priests in Pennsylvania's Catholic Church

1356

Comments

  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 46,807
    edited August 2018
    fife said:
    just another reason that the chastity idea for priests is a bad idea all around. 
    Not trying to be an asshole but I don't see how this post has anything to do with the story.  Do you really think that the reason these priest molested kids is because they can't have sex with adults? 


    No, that's not why the chastity idea is a factor. It's because many sexual deviants, especially Catholic ones, suffer from a lot of guilt. So they are often attracted to the priesthood because they have to swear a vow of chastity, thinking that if they make that vow to God, God will help them resist their urges, and that their faith/vow will be enough to make them control themselves.... Obviously, that isn't the case. But that is what draws these sickos to the priesthood in the first place... Weirdly, it's their good intentions to stop that brings the sickness into the Church. If there was no vow of chastity, they would have no motivation to enter the priesthood in the first place.... This would, of course, still exist as pedophiles in the community.
    There is also the factor of them entering the Church with much worse intentions of course - they know they'll have easier access to children and a means to control them. But that is the case for most denominations, and this problem is only a crisis in the Catholic Church, so that says a lot.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • PJ_Soul said:
    fife said:
    just another reason that the chastity idea for priests is a bad idea all around. 
    Not trying to be an asshole but I don't see how this post has anything to do with the story.  Do you really think that the reason these priest molested kids is because they can't have sex with adults? 


    No, that's not why the chastity idea is a factor. It's because many sexual deviants, especially Catholic ones, suffer from a lot of guilt. So they are often attracted to the priesthood because they have to swear a vow of chastity, thinking that if they make that vow to God, God will help them resist their urges, and that their faith/vow will be enough to make them control themselves.... 
    Where does this info come from...
    The man they call my enemy. I've seen his eyes, he looks just like me - A mirror...
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 18,020
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    He's going to have to drop the whole vow of chastity thing for priests and allow women equal power in the Church to accomplish that, and he's not going to do either of those things.
    while I agree the equal power thing is necessary, why specifically in the context of sexual abuse would that matter?
    I meant that both have to go hand in hand as a single solution, but if you insist on separating them (I'd rather not), even that would help, simply because all-boys clubs tend to be far more corrupt and more into the "protect from within" in general. Plus, men simply conduct themselves differently in the sexual context when women are in the mix. Also, I just think it would make it a lot harder to get away with with a bunch of women around. I mean, the Church would be a COMPLETELY different animal if women had equal positions in it. No, I am not suggesting that that female pedos don't exist, if that's where your head went.
    But the reason I don't like the separating that from the vow of chastity, is because that vow is, in my opinion, almost solely responsible for attracting so many pedophiles to the Church in the first place.
    not sure where I was insisting on anything, but anyway......I've looked at this "attracting pedophiles" thing before, and I'm not convinced that all these men are classic cases of real pedophiles and more just horny men with an opportunity, which would be mostly curbed by just the chastity thing. I'm not sure the catholic church or religion in general would even exist if women had equal power in society from the beginning. I mean, what's the point of religion anyway if not to oppress?

    female pedos are extremely rare, as far as I've read, so no, that's not where my head went. 
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 46,807
    edited August 2018
    PJ_Soul said:
    fife said:
    just another reason that the chastity idea for priests is a bad idea all around. 
    Not trying to be an asshole but I don't see how this post has anything to do with the story.  Do you really think that the reason these priest molested kids is because they can't have sex with adults? 


    No, that's not why the chastity idea is a factor. It's because many sexual deviants, especially Catholic ones, suffer from a lot of guilt. So they are often attracted to the priesthood because they have to swear a vow of chastity, thinking that if they make that vow to God, God will help them resist their urges, and that their faith/vow will be enough to make them control themselves.... 
    Where does this info come from...
    Many different places + logic.
    This is a common point of discussion, I don't have any single source. It's just a theory in the debate- I happen to completely believe it. Others claim that the vow of chastity has nothing to do with it, but I don't believe that for a second. But this is why some claim that the vow is one of the causes (but I edited my post before I saw your question to make sure nobody thought I think this is the ONLY cause of the problem. It definitely is not. There are several factors that have come together to create this crisis. I strongly feel that the vow of chastity is one of them, and one of the reasons this problem isn't so massive in denominations that don't require it).
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 12,275
    edited August 2018
    Maybe everyone know of this film - it won Oscars - but maybe someone missed it. Worth checking out:


    The man they call my enemy. I've seen his eyes, he looks just like me - A mirror...
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 46,807
    edited August 2018
    Maybe everyone know of this film - it won Oscars - but maybe someone missed it. Worth checking out:


    I've seen it twice.... I think it's way overrated as a film, but I appreciated that it drew focus on the issue.... Though the problem with this is the same as what we'll be saying the problem is with this new scandal in Pennsylvania .... The spotlight will fade. It always does.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • benjsbenjs Toronto, ONPosts: 7,567
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    fife said:
    just another reason that the chastity idea for priests is a bad idea all around. 
    Not trying to be an asshole but I don't see how this post has anything to do with the story.  Do you really think that the reason these priest molested kids is because they can't have sex with adults? 


    No, that's not why the chastity idea is a factor. It's because many sexual deviants, especially Catholic ones, suffer from a lot of guilt. So they are often attracted to the priesthood because they have to swear a vow of chastity, thinking that if they make that vow to God, God will help them resist their urges, and that their faith/vow will be enough to make them control themselves.... 
    Where does this info come from...
    Many different places + logic.
    This is a common point of discussion, I don't have any single source. It's just a theory in the debate- I happen to completely believe it. Others claim that the vow of chastity has nothing to do with it, but I don't believe that for a second. But this is why some claim that the vow is one of the causes (but I edited my post before I saw your question to make sure nobody thought I think this is the ONLY cause of the problem. It definitely is not. There are several factors that have come together to create this crisis. I strongly feel that the vow of chastity is one of them, and one of the reasons this problem isn't so massive in denominations that don't require it).
    I can't help but think it also has something to do with the 'untouchability' of the Church. The Pope is basically Sarah Huckabee-Sanders to God, and people abandon their personal values based on what their invisible man/woman/elephant/whatever tells them to believe all the freaking time.
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 12,275
    edited August 2018
    PJ_Soul said:
    Maybe everyone know of this film - it won Oscars - but maybe someone missed it. Worth checking out:


    I've seen it twice.... I think it's way overrated as a film, but I appreciated that it drew focus on the issue.... Though the problem with this is the same as what we'll be saying the problem is with this new scandal in Pennsylvania .... The spotlight will fade. It always does.
    I agree with it being overrated. Feels a bit made for TV. Only seen it once though.

    But worth watching. 
    Post edited by Spiritual_Chaos on
    The man they call my enemy. I've seen his eyes, he looks just like me - A mirror...
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 18,020
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    fife said:
    just another reason that the chastity idea for priests is a bad idea all around. 
    Not trying to be an asshole but I don't see how this post has anything to do with the story.  Do you really think that the reason these priest molested kids is because they can't have sex with adults? 


    No, that's not why the chastity idea is a factor. It's because many sexual deviants, especially Catholic ones, suffer from a lot of guilt. So they are often attracted to the priesthood because they have to swear a vow of chastity, thinking that if they make that vow to God, God will help them resist their urges, and that their faith/vow will be enough to make them control themselves.... 
    Where does this info come from...
    Many different places + logic.
    This is a common point of discussion, I don't have any single source. It's just a theory in the debate- I happen to completely believe it. Others claim that the vow of chastity has nothing to do with it, but I don't believe that for a second. But this is why some claim that the vow is one of the causes (but I edited my post before I saw your question to make sure nobody thought I think this is the ONLY cause of the problem. It definitely is not. There are several factors that have come together to create this crisis. I strongly feel that the vow of chastity is one of them, and one of the reasons this problem isn't so massive in denominations that don't require it).
    this is a theory I have never heard, and frankly, I find a bit convoluted and more complex than it actually is. people become priests to stop being sexual deviants?? 

    98% of sexual assaults/misconduct towards children is not TRUE pedophilia, it is a crime of opportunity. I highly doubt that the catholic church deviates from that very much, and never mind much, but you are positing it is the norm, which would swing it completely the other direction. I find that fairly unbelievable. 
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 46,807
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    fife said:
    just another reason that the chastity idea for priests is a bad idea all around. 
    Not trying to be an asshole but I don't see how this post has anything to do with the story.  Do you really think that the reason these priest molested kids is because they can't have sex with adults? 


    No, that's not why the chastity idea is a factor. It's because many sexual deviants, especially Catholic ones, suffer from a lot of guilt. So they are often attracted to the priesthood because they have to swear a vow of chastity, thinking that if they make that vow to God, God will help them resist their urges, and that their faith/vow will be enough to make them control themselves.... 
    Where does this info come from...
    Many different places + logic.
    This is a common point of discussion, I don't have any single source. It's just a theory in the debate- I happen to completely believe it. Others claim that the vow of chastity has nothing to do with it, but I don't believe that for a second. But this is why some claim that the vow is one of the causes (but I edited my post before I saw your question to make sure nobody thought I think this is the ONLY cause of the problem. It definitely is not. There are several factors that have come together to create this crisis. I strongly feel that the vow of chastity is one of them, and one of the reasons this problem isn't so massive in denominations that don't require it).
    this is a theory I have never heard, and frankly, I find a bit convoluted and more complex than it actually is. people become priests to stop being sexual deviants?? 

    98% of sexual assaults/misconduct towards children is not TRUE pedophilia, it is a crime of opportunity. I highly doubt that the catholic church deviates from that very much, and never mind much, but you are positing it is the norm, which would swing it completely the other direction. I find that fairly unbelievable. 
    I am not sure why you would assume that Church doesn't deviate from the rest of society very much. I don't think priests are representative of the wider population at all. The weirdo circumstances created by the Catholic Church's priesthood makes this problem utterly non-comparable to stats taken from regular society.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • OffSheGoes35OffSheGoes35 Posts: 1,836
    Here's a write-up about all the abuse that Bishop Timlin of the Scranton diocese covered-up. As I stated earlier, this man gave me my "confirmation." And a picture exists of 12-year-old me kneeling before him as he blesses me or whatever. 

    https://www.timesleader.com/news/715509/715509
    I'm so sorry that you have memories where he was present. 
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 18,020
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    fife said:
    just another reason that the chastity idea for priests is a bad idea all around. 
    Not trying to be an asshole but I don't see how this post has anything to do with the story.  Do you really think that the reason these priest molested kids is because they can't have sex with adults? 


    No, that's not why the chastity idea is a factor. It's because many sexual deviants, especially Catholic ones, suffer from a lot of guilt. So they are often attracted to the priesthood because they have to swear a vow of chastity, thinking that if they make that vow to God, God will help them resist their urges, and that their faith/vow will be enough to make them control themselves.... 
    Where does this info come from...
    Many different places + logic.
    This is a common point of discussion, I don't have any single source. It's just a theory in the debate- I happen to completely believe it. Others claim that the vow of chastity has nothing to do with it, but I don't believe that for a second. But this is why some claim that the vow is one of the causes (but I edited my post before I saw your question to make sure nobody thought I think this is the ONLY cause of the problem. It definitely is not. There are several factors that have come together to create this crisis. I strongly feel that the vow of chastity is one of them, and one of the reasons this problem isn't so massive in denominations that don't require it).
    this is a theory I have never heard, and frankly, I find a bit convoluted and more complex than it actually is. people become priests to stop being sexual deviants?? 

    98% of sexual assaults/misconduct towards children is not TRUE pedophilia, it is a crime of opportunity. I highly doubt that the catholic church deviates from that very much, and never mind much, but you are positing it is the norm, which would swing it completely the other direction. I find that fairly unbelievable. 
    I am not sure why you would assume that Church doesn't deviate from the rest of society very much. I don't think priests are representative of the wider population at all. The weirdo circumstances created by the Catholic Church's priesthood makes this problem utterly non-comparable to stats taken from regular society.
    what you are suggesting is that people decide to become priests when they are sexually aware enough of their own deviancy and have come to the conclusion that taking the incredible step of going through a rigourous process of becoming a priest is their only logical step to being cured. 

    I gotta say, PJ, this sounds totally absurd to me.  
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 46,807
    edited August 2018
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    fife said:
    just another reason that the chastity idea for priests is a bad idea all around. 
    Not trying to be an asshole but I don't see how this post has anything to do with the story.  Do you really think that the reason these priest molested kids is because they can't have sex with adults? 


    No, that's not why the chastity idea is a factor. It's because many sexual deviants, especially Catholic ones, suffer from a lot of guilt. So they are often attracted to the priesthood because they have to swear a vow of chastity, thinking that if they make that vow to God, God will help them resist their urges, and that their faith/vow will be enough to make them control themselves.... 
    Where does this info come from...
    Many different places + logic.
    This is a common point of discussion, I don't have any single source. It's just a theory in the debate- I happen to completely believe it. Others claim that the vow of chastity has nothing to do with it, but I don't believe that for a second. But this is why some claim that the vow is one of the causes (but I edited my post before I saw your question to make sure nobody thought I think this is the ONLY cause of the problem. It definitely is not. There are several factors that have come together to create this crisis. I strongly feel that the vow of chastity is one of them, and one of the reasons this problem isn't so massive in denominations that don't require it).
    this is a theory I have never heard, and frankly, I find a bit convoluted and more complex than it actually is. people become priests to stop being sexual deviants?? 

    98% of sexual assaults/misconduct towards children is not TRUE pedophilia, it is a crime of opportunity. I highly doubt that the catholic church deviates from that very much, and never mind much, but you are positing it is the norm, which would swing it completely the other direction. I find that fairly unbelievable. 
    I am not sure why you would assume that Church doesn't deviate from the rest of society very much. I don't think priests are representative of the wider population at all. The weirdo circumstances created by the Catholic Church's priesthood makes this problem utterly non-comparable to stats taken from regular society.
    what you are suggesting is that people decide to become priests when they are sexually aware enough of their own deviancy and have come to the conclusion that taking the incredible step of going through a rigourous process of becoming a priest is their only logical step to being cured. 

    I gotta say, PJ, this sounds totally absurd to me.  
    Well I guess it would if you're phrasing or interpreting like that, lol.
    But it makes perfect sense. I'm not suggesting these are just regular pedos off the street who suddenly turn to this option. I'm saying that those who are already devout Catholics and dealing with sexual deviancy may choose this option. Their entire attitude about their deviancy and sexuality in general is already rolled up into their religious faith, starting from childhood, so it isn't a leap at all to assume that some with deviancy would turn to the Church for a solution to it in this way.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 46,807
    So why did you say you thought the vow of chastity is a factor in the pedo problem in the Church HFD??? If not what I'm saying, then what? Did you actually mean that celibacy leads to pedo horn doggedness or something??
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 18,020
    PJ_Soul said:
    So why did you say you thought the vow of chastity is a factor in the pedo problem in the Church HFD??? If not what I'm saying, then what? Did you actually mean that celibacy leads to pedo horn doggedness or something??
    yes, partially; as I stated, the vast majority of sexual crimes agains children are crimes of opportunity, not true pedophilia. so combine the fact that these guys are:

    -celibate, and
    -are often alone with and hold much influence over these kids which reduces the possibility of them getting caught

    it's a powderkeg waiting to happen. 

    I think what needs to be clarified here is that it seems that most people believe that anyone who has ever molested a kid is a pedophile. that is simply not true. believe me, I was as sick about it as anyone when I found this out, knowing that there are people who do these things on a "whim". Makes me think twice about who I leave my daughters with. 
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 18,020
    if chastity wasn't part of the issue, then it would happen in other faiths. it simply does not. at least not to this degree, even when taking into account the relative numbers in different faiths. 
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 11,864
    HFD, do you honestly think you could be horny enough to rape a child?  Do you think any of the men you know could get that horny?

    And, where do you get this 98% of child sexual abuse isn't pedophilia?  A petty theft is a crime of opportunity, an organized and systematic effort to groom children for sexual abuse isn't a crime of opportunity.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 18,020
    rgambs said:
    HFD, do you honestly think you could be horny enough to rape a child?  Do you think any of the men you know could get that horny?

    And, where do you get this 98% of child sexual abuse isn't pedophilia?  A petty theft is a crime of opportunity, an organized and systematic effort to groom children for sexual abuse isn't a crime of opportunity.
    gross. 

    I don't want to do a google search at work, but I can tell you I have spoken to a few people in the justice system (on the prosecutorial side) who told me this, and backed it up. I was as surprised as anyone. 
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 9,876
    rgambs said:
    HFD, do you honestly think you could be horny enough to rape a child?  Do you think any of the men you know could get that horny?

    And, where do you get this 98% of child sexual abuse isn't pedophilia?  A petty theft is a crime of opportunity, an organized and systematic effort to groom children for sexual abuse isn't a crime of opportunity.
    gross. 

    I don't want to do a google search at work, but I can tell you I have spoken to a few people in the justice system (on the prosecutorial side) who told me this, and backed it up. I was as surprised as anyone. 

    From what I recall from reading in this area, I think you're correct. Most of these individuals would not test out as classic pedophiles in terms of arousal response, etc., if assessed forensically. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 11,864
    rgambs said:
    HFD, do you honestly think you could be horny enough to rape a child?  Do you think any of the men you know could get that horny?

    And, where do you get this 98% of child sexual abuse isn't pedophilia?  A petty theft is a crime of opportunity, an organized and systematic effort to groom children for sexual abuse isn't a crime of opportunity.
    gross. 

    I don't want to do a google search at work, but I can tell you I have spoken to a few people in the justice system (on the prosecutorial side) who told me this, and backed it up. I was as surprised as anyone. 

    From what I recall from reading in this area, I think you're correct. Most of these individuals would not test out as classic pedophiles in terms of arousal response, etc., if assessed forensically. 
    Then they have too narrow of a definition for pedophilia, because that's not something that should be attributable to normal sociopathy.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 46,807
    edited August 2018
    PJ_Soul said:
    So why did you say you thought the vow of chastity is a factor in the pedo problem in the Church HFD??? If not what I'm saying, then what? Did you actually mean that celibacy leads to pedo horn doggedness or something??
    yes, partially; as I stated, the vast majority of sexual crimes agains children are crimes of opportunity, not true pedophilia. so combine the fact that these guys are:

    -celibate, and
    -are often alone with and hold much influence over these kids which reduces the possibility of them getting caught

    it's a powderkeg waiting to happen. 

    I think what needs to be clarified here is that it seems that most people believe that anyone who has ever molested a kid is a pedophile. that is simply not true. believe me, I was as sick about it as anyone when I found this out, knowing that there are people who do these things on a "whim". Makes me think twice about who I leave my daughters with. 
    I don't really get your main claim here. You are saying that only TWO PERCENT of everyone who molests/rapes children are actually pedophiles, and the rest are just taking the opportunity to get some??? Nope, I'm not buying that premise at all - that just doesn't make any sense. Even those who do it "on a whim" are often sexually turned on by the child, and that alone makes them a pedophile. I know about the power factor when it comes to these things, but even including that factor, I think there is no way in hell that almost everyone who does this is simply a horny asshole and not attracted to children sexually. That statistic just doesn't seem feasible to me - as rgambs says, I think there is something weird going on with the definition of pedophilia when considering that statistic. I'm not saying you didn't read this info btw. I'm just doubting the methods by which they arrived at this conclusion. But in any case, all the priests I've ever heard of accused of child molestation are serial offenders who use very well thought out methods to commit their crimes and cover it up and keep the child from talking, and they do so over and over for years .... That doesn't sound like a crime of opportunity to me in any case. So even if this weird stat is true under some limited definition of pedophilia, I don't think it would seem to apply to these serial child molester priests protected by the Church.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 46,807
    if chastity wasn't part of the issue, then it would happen in other faiths. it simply does not. at least not to this degree, even when taking into account the relative numbers in different faiths. 
    Yes, that I completely agree with. People tend to forget to compare this issue to other faiths... doing so makes it clear that we have to focus on the the differences between those and how the Catholic faith has things set up for priests.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 9,876
    PJ_Soul said:
    if chastity wasn't part of the issue, then it would happen in other faiths. it simply does not. at least not to this degree, even when taking into account the relative numbers in different faiths. 
    Yes, that I completely agree with. People tend to forget to compare this issue to other faiths... doing so makes it clear that we have to focus on the the differences between those and how the Catholic faith has things set up for priests.
    I wonder how much we know about abuse in other faith communities. I personally don’t know any data, but clearly sexual abuse exists in many other religious communities, as well as cults, and pretty much any other group that emphasizes belonging/loyalty to the group/exclusion of others, because it limits a vulnerable person’s ability to refuse or get away. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 11,864
    if chastity wasn't part of the issue, then it would happen in other faiths. it simply does not. at least not to this degree, even when taking into account the relative numbers in different faiths. 
    I don't think you can say that so definitively, there really isn't much evidence one way or the other because the Catholic Church is the only large centrally managed faith that has been look at so closely.
    I'm actually seeing a lot of rumbling around the internet about evangelical churches facing a reckoning of their own on the subject soon.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • What do people who study human sexuality say about this phenomenon? It must have been studied(?).
    The man they call my enemy. I've seen his eyes, he looks just like me - A mirror...
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 18,020
    rgambs said:
    if chastity wasn't part of the issue, then it would happen in other faiths. it simply does not. at least not to this degree, even when taking into account the relative numbers in different faiths. 
    I don't think you can say that so definitively, there really isn't much evidence one way or the other because the Catholic Church is the only large centrally managed faith that has been look at so closely.
    I'm actually seeing a lot of rumbling around the internet about evangelical churches facing a reckoning of their own on the subject soon.
    hundreds of priests have been accused. nearly zero ministers of other faiths have been, to my knowledge. until there is widespread accusations of clergy in other faiths, then I believe chastity to be at least part of it. 
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 46,807
    rgambs said:
    if chastity wasn't part of the issue, then it would happen in other faiths. it simply does not. at least not to this degree, even when taking into account the relative numbers in different faiths. 
    I don't think you can say that so definitively, there really isn't much evidence one way or the other because the Catholic Church is the only large centrally managed faith that has been look at so closely.
    I'm actually seeing a lot of rumbling around the internet about evangelical churches facing a reckoning of their own on the subject soon.
    I'm positive that there is child molestation going on in other faiths (and then there are those fucking Mormon sects with the child marriage and shit), but I think there is no way it is at the level as it is in Catholicism just because if it were that rampant we'd most certainly know about it. The Catholic Church is the one that most capable of cover ups like this due to its political structure and power, and we still know how rampant it is.... No other denomination would be able to cover it up better IMHO.
    Obviously most of this entire conversation is conjecture, theories based on logical assumptions, etc, but since this isn't a court of law, I see no problem with this. ;)
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 18,020
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    So why did you say you thought the vow of chastity is a factor in the pedo problem in the Church HFD??? If not what I'm saying, then what? Did you actually mean that celibacy leads to pedo horn doggedness or something??
    yes, partially; as I stated, the vast majority of sexual crimes agains children are crimes of opportunity, not true pedophilia. so combine the fact that these guys are:

    -celibate, and
    -are often alone with and hold much influence over these kids which reduces the possibility of them getting caught

    it's a powderkeg waiting to happen. 

    I think what needs to be clarified here is that it seems that most people believe that anyone who has ever molested a kid is a pedophile. that is simply not true. believe me, I was as sick about it as anyone when I found this out, knowing that there are people who do these things on a "whim". Makes me think twice about who I leave my daughters with. 
    I don't really get your main claim here. You are saying that only TWO PERCENT of everyone who molests/rapes children are actually pedophiles, and the rest are just taking the opportunity to get some??? Nope, I'm not buying that premise at all - that just doesn't make any sense. Even those who do it "on a whim" are often sexually turned on by the child, and that alone makes them a pedophile. I know about the power factor when it comes to these things, but even including that factor, I think there is no way in hell that almost everyone who does this is simply a horny asshole and not attracted to children sexually. That statistic just doesn't seem feasible to me - as rgambs says, I think there is something weird going on with the definition of pedophilia when considering that statistic. I'm not saying you didn't read this info btw. I'm just doubting the methods by which they arrived at this conclusion. But in any case, all the priests I've ever heard of accused of child molestation are serial offenders who use very well thought out methods to commit their crimes and cover it up and keep the child from talking, and they do so over and over for years .... That doesn't sound like a crime of opportunity to me in any case. So even if this weird stat is true under some limited definition of pedophilia, I don't think it would seem to apply to these serial child molester priests protected by the Church.
    my claim here is more of a counter claim: I don't believe that the majority of molesting priests go into the priesthood specifically because they are or believe themselves to be sexual deviants. I'd like to see some type of data on that (which I doubt exists), not just any give person's version of logic. 

    well, these definitions come from experts in the field. I totally understand the hesitance to accept this, however, as when I was first told this, I didn't understand how a normal human being would just flip a switch and all of a sudden think it's normal to abuse a child because the opportunity arose. I still can't really wrap my head around it. All I'm saying is, that's the definition and people just toss around the word haphazardly. 

    again, I'd love to do more research on it, but no way in hell I'm doing that at work. 
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 18,020
    What do people who study human sexuality say about this phenomenon? It must have been studied(?).
    but how do you study it without the participation of the perpetrators? I can't imagine any child-diddling priests would be interested in helping out the research. 
  • What do people who study human sexuality say about this phenomenon? It must have been studied(?).
    but how do you study it without the participation of the perpetrators? I can't imagine any child-diddling priests would be interested in helping out the research. 
    True. But there might be other ways.

    Or at least theories about it, based on something else than "this is my gut feeling".

    It is a disturbing and well known phenomena after all.
    The man they call my enemy. I've seen his eyes, he looks just like me - A mirror...
Sign In or Register to comment.