I'm not sure how this morphed into a nuke thread but on that subject, it's always concerned me far more that the US and Russia (and to a lesser degree, the others listed here) have so many nukes:
Russia: 8,000 U.S.A.: 7,315 France: 300 China: 250 U.K.: 225 Pakistan: 100-120 India 90-110 (Don't 'cha love the uncertainty?) Israel: 80 N.K.: So another nuke or two here or there? Whoopie!
I watched them all. What is the point that you are trying to make? That Israel is horrible? You have made that point. It is the only point that you seem to be capable of making.
I watched them all. What is the point that you are trying to make? That Israel is horrible? You have made that point. It is the only point that you seem to be capable of making.
No, just showing YOU how hypocritical they (government) and YOU are. And your little jabs are lame. If you're gonna chirp me, be a Fucken man and chirp me. But seeing how it took you almost a year to admit you're a Zionist, what else would I expect from you.
I watched them all. What is the point that you are trying to make? That Israel is horrible? You have made that point. It is the only point that you seem to be capable of making.
kind of like your continuous bashing of islam. Point well taken.
I watched them all. What is the point that you are trying to make? That Israel is horrible? You have made that point. It is the only point that you seem to be capable of making.
No, just showing YOU how hypocritical they (government) and YOU are. And your little jabs are lame. If you're gonna chirp me, be a Fucken man and chirp me. But seeing how it took you almost a year to admit you're a Zionist, what else would I expect from you.
Maybe what I am confused by is that I thought this thread was about a deal to prevent Iran from getting a nuclear weapon. That means whether you think "the deal" is good or whether you think "the deal" is bad most people, including the Obama administration, would still agree that preventing Iran from getting a nuclear weapon is the optimal result. What I have now come to realize, thanks to BB and others, is that many on here are actually not bothered at all as to whether Iran gets a bomb. They feel it is hypocritical by trying to stop them. They see Iran as fighting the good fight against an imperial and evil west. They see Iranian rhetoric as fair game as long as they continue to be a counterweight to Israel. If that is your view, fine but please don't pretend that you are interested in a deal.
I think we need to stop policing other countries. I'm not convinced Iran doesn't already have nuclear weapons. As Brian said earlier, what a couple more going to hurt?
Even the bat shit craziest of dictators don't want to start a nuclear war. They want them to make their penis seem bigger.
I think we need to stop policing other countries. I'm not convinced Iran doesn't already have nuclear weapons. As Brian said earlier, what a couple more going to hurt?
Even the bat shit craziest of dictators don't want to start a nuclear war. They want them to make their penis seem bigger.
That's a fair view point but it requires a massive gamble on the intentions of those that are "bat shit crazy"
I think we need to stop policing other countries. I'm not convinced Iran doesn't already have nuclear weapons. As Brian said earlier, what a couple more going to hurt?
Even the bat shit craziest of dictators don't want to start a nuclear war. They want them to make their penis seem bigger.
That's a fair view point but it requires a massive gamble on the intentions of those that are "bat shit crazy"
Speaking of batshit crazy... Who are the only country who have actually used nuclear weapons on an attack, and not just once, but twice? For me, that's my definition of batshit crazy: recognizing the tremendous and awesome power of nuclear weaponry, and saying "let's do it".
Second-strike retaliation protocols from the US and Israel are also definite deterrents from actually using nuclear weapons in effect.
This is all just food for thought, and I'd be naive to claim to know the true intentions of the Iranian nuclear program (i.e. nuclear power, nuclear bombs for power position, nuclear bombs for potential for destruction), but I think that's really the first question. If this is a game of 'whose balls are bigger' and nothing more, or if this is like the cop who stretches so that it reveals his firearms for no purpose but to induce fear, then the question of the right to develop a bomb is neither here nor there. Ultimately, no one but the Iranian government can say whether this is for real or for show.
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I think we need to stop policing other countries. I'm not convinced Iran doesn't already have nuclear weapons. As Brian said earlier, what a couple more going to hurt?
Even the bat shit craziest of dictators don't want to start a nuclear war. They want them to make their penis seem bigger.
That's a fair view point but it requires a massive gamble on the intentions of those that are "bat shit crazy"
Speaking of batshit crazy... Who are the only country who have actually used nuclear weapons on an attack, and not just once, but twice? For me, that's my definition of batshit crazy: recognizing the tremendous and awesome power of nuclear weaponry, and saying "let's do it".
Second-strike retaliation protocols from the US and Israel are also definite deterrents from actually using nuclear weapons in effect.
This is all just food for thought, and I'd be naive to claim to know the true intentions of the Iranian nuclear program (i.e. nuclear power, nuclear bombs for power position, nuclear bombs for potential for destruction), but I think that's really the first question. If this is a game of 'whose balls are bigger' and nothing more, or if this is like the cop who stretches so that it reveals his firearms for no purpose but to induce fear, then the question of the right to develop a bomb is neither here nor there. Ultimately, no one but the Iranian government can say whether this is for real or for show.
Maybe what I am confused by is that I thought this thread was about a deal to prevent Iran from getting a nuclear weapon. That means whether you think "the deal" is good or whether you think "the deal" is bad most people, including the Obama administration, would still agree that preventing Iran from getting a nuclear weapon is the optimal result. What I have now come to realize, thanks to BB and others, is that many on here are actually not bothered at all as to whether Iran gets a bomb. They feel it is hypocritical by trying to stop them. They see Iran as fighting the good fight against an imperial and evil west. They see Iranian rhetoric as fair game as long as they continue to be a counterweight to Israel. If that is your view, fine but please don't pretend that you are interested in a deal.
And don't forget, "see right through your bullshit."
Maybe what I am confused by is that I thought this thread was about a deal to prevent Iran from getting a nuclear weapon. That means whether you think "the deal" is good or whether you think "the deal" is bad most people, including the Obama administration, would still agree that preventing Iran from getting a nuclear weapon is the optimal result. What I have now come to realize, thanks to BB and others, is that many on here are actually not bothered at all as to whether Iran gets a bomb. They feel it is hypocritical by trying to stop them. They see Iran as fighting the good fight against an imperial and evil west. They see Iranian rhetoric as fair game as long as they continue to be a counterweight to Israel. If that is your view, fine but please don't pretend that you are interested in a deal.
I don't disagree with everything above.Taking out the personal back and forth. Many of these discussions do get turned back to Israel.One can question its relevance.Im not so sure that's needed on every issue discussed in the region. If the question is about the deal brokering between the USA and Iran ,I don't see why this had to turn into a pro/against Israel convo AGAIN !!!!! Shit it's crystal clear how some of you feel about it either way.Agree or not,every single Muslim/ Muslim country vs West issue turns into the same fucked up,go nowhere,hate filled conversation. Seriously they all take the same road and tone.broken record stuff,imo That's why I don't do too much posting on these threads. For the record Anything that lets the hard liners in Iran get closer to having their hands on a weapon of mass destruction is a bad thing.They have been supporters of global terror and have wanted much I'll will both publicly and privately toward the west and Israel. If a deal keeps that from happening then it's a good deal.If it dosent then it's not.
Maybe what I am confused by is that I thought this thread was about a deal to prevent Iran from getting a nuclear weapon. That means whether you think "the deal" is good or whether you think "the deal" is bad most people, including the Obama administration, would still agree that preventing Iran from getting a nuclear weapon is the optimal result. What I have now come to realize, thanks to BB and others, is that many on here are actually not bothered at all as to whether Iran gets a bomb. They feel it is hypocritical by trying to stop them. They see Iran as fighting the good fight against an imperial and evil west. They see Iranian rhetoric as fair game as long as they continue to be a counterweight to Israel. If that is your view, fine but please don't pretend that you are interested in a deal.
I don't disagree with everything above.Taking out the personal back and forth. Many of these discussions do get turned back to Israel.One can question its relevance.Im not so sure that's needed on every issue discussed in the region. If the question is about the deal brokering between the USA and Iran ,I don't see why this had to turn into a pro/against Israel convo AGAIN !!!!! Shit it's crystal clear how some of you feel about it either way.Agree or not,every single Muslim/ Muslim country vs West issue turns into the same fucked up,go nowhere,hate filled conversation. Seriously they all take the same road and tone.broken record stuff,imo That's why I don't do too much posting on these threads. For the record Anything that lets the hard liners in Iran get closer to having their hands on a weapon of mass destruction is a bad thing.They have been supporters of global terror and have wanted much I'll will both publicly and privately toward the west and Israel. If a deal keeps that from happening then it's a good deal.If it dosent then it's not.
Oh come on ryan, straight bullshit. This guy brought iran into the Indiana thread and you didn't say shit. This has everything to do with Israel and DONT fucken kid yourself by denying it. Who's been the most outspoken country against this deal? Israel, who came to our country crying wolf before his countries election? You're better then this and know it. The only reason israel doesn't want iran to have one is so they can throw their weight around threatening any country it wants without resistance. You know as does BS. Everybody with a 9th grade brain knows this.
For my part, I am not ambivalent about Iran having nuclear missiles, but neither am I extraordinarily concerned about it. I don't think Iran is a "death cult" as BS states, I think that is an ignorant catch phrase touted by the right that ignores reality. If Iran was a death cult, you would think they would be engaged in a real war, and not just be imitating the US by playing empire, funding terrorism and attempting to overthrow populist governments... That's not a death cult, that is more like cosmopolitan politics. Would Iran consign it's entire population to death to destroy Israel? I find that incredibly hard to believe.
I would rather not see any more nukes, and I hope this deal is on the up so we can slow them down and buy time for diplomacy and for modernization to squeeze fanaticism out.
Yes, Israel is tied to this issue tightly, but I think RR's point about the way the conversation degrades around Israel is valid.
Reading down this thread, the main question I read is whether Iran has the right to have nuclear missiles. For me this isn't the point about this deal with Iran. I think deal or no deal Iran will sooner or later build these missiles, therefor the more important question is should the West be on speaking terms with Iran, or do we shit in our paints with fear and act aggressively towards Iran out of this fear? People are so short sighted, "If my allies have nucs it's okay, but my enemies can't have them, 'cause they will hurt me..."Well, nothing changes faster than friend and enemies. Iran was one of the West biggest allies, in the region, up until the late '70. ISIS was our ally up until about a year ago.Look at how we see them now... and wasn't Assad our enemy in Syria, the last couple of years, but now the West is trying to team up with him to have an ally against ISIS
In my opinion, it's always better to be on speaking terms, with your enemies, than act aggressively towards them out of fear. If we close the road of diplomacy and start acting aggressively, Iran is damn right to build a nuclear missile...
"The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed".- Carl Jung.
"Art does not reproduce what we see; rather, it makes us see."- Paul Klee
Reading down this thread, the main question I read is whether Iran has the right to have nuclear missiles. For me this isn't the point about this deal with Iran. I think deal or no deal Iran will sooner or later build these missiles, therefor the more important question is should the West be on speaking terms with Iran, or do we shit in our paints with fear and act aggressively towards Iran out of this fear? People are so short sighted, "If my allies have nucs it's okay, but my enemies can't have them, 'cause they will hurt me..."Well, nothing changes faster than friend and enemies. Iran was one of the West biggest allies, in the region, up until the late '70. ISIS was our ally up until about a year ago.Look at how we see them now... and wasn't Assad our enemy in Syria, the last couple of years, but now the West is trying to team up with him to have an ally against ISIS
In my opinion, it's always better to be on speaking terms, with your enemies, than act aggressively towards them out of fear. If we close the road of diplomacy and start acting aggressively, Iran is damn right to build a nuclear missile...
well what do you know.... bibi says this deal is a threat to the very existence of israel. i have been following the israel/palestine conflict for 10 years or so, and i can count on 2 hands things bibi has said are a threat to israel's existence.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
For my part, I am not ambivalent about Iran having nuclear missiles, but neither am I extraordinarily concerned about it. I don't think Iran is a "death cult" as BS states, I think that is an ignorant catch phrase touted by the right that ignores reality. If Iran was a death cult, you would think they would be engaged in a real war, and not just be imitating the US by playing empire, funding terrorism and attempting to overthrow populist governments... That's not a death cult, that is more like cosmopolitan politics. Would Iran consign it's entire population to death to destroy Israel? I find that incredibly hard to believe.
I would rather not see any more nukes, and I hope this deal is on the up so we can slow them down and buy time for diplomacy and for modernization to squeeze fanaticism out.
Yes, Israel is tied to this issue tightly, but I think RR's point about the way the conversation degrades around Israel is valid.
Iran is engaged in a real war. From Iraq to syria to lebanon to yemen etc. It is a very different style of war and tactically brilliant as far as I am concerned. I can't say as to whether they would use a bomb...again that is a judgement as to how "bat shit crazy" we think they are...but it will give them the ability to push on with their regional hegemony under some degree of nuclear security. Saudi Arabia and the other gulf states have far more to be concerned about then Israel under this scenerio.
well what do you know.... bibi says this deal is a threat to the very existence of israel. i have been following the israel/palestine conflict for 10 years or so, and i can count on 2 hands things bibi has said are a threat to israel's existence.
After an Iranian General says destroying Israel is non-negotiable, what is Bibi supposed to say?
Maybe what I am confused by is that I thought this thread was about a deal to prevent Iran from getting a nuclear weapon. That means whether you think "the deal" is good or whether you think "the deal" is bad most people, including the Obama administration, would still agree that preventing Iran from getting a nuclear weapon is the optimal result. What I have now come to realize, thanks to BB and others, is that many on here are actually not bothered at all as to whether Iran gets a bomb. They feel it is hypocritical by trying to stop them. They see Iran as fighting the good fight against an imperial and evil west. They see Iranian rhetoric as fair game as long as they continue to be a counterweight to Israel. If that is your view, fine but please don't pretend that you are interested in a deal.
I don't disagree with everything above.Taking out the personal back and forth. Many of these discussions do get turned back to Israel.One can question its relevance.Im not so sure that's needed on every issue discussed in the region. If the question is about the deal brokering between the USA and Iran ,I don't see why this had to turn into a pro/against Israel convo AGAIN !!!!! Shit it's crystal clear how some of you feel about it either way.Agree or not,every single Muslim/ Muslim country vs West issue turns into the same fucked up,go nowhere,hate filled conversation. Seriously they all take the same road and tone.broken record stuff,imo That's why I don't do too much posting on these threads. For the record Anything that lets the hard liners in Iran get closer to having their hands on a weapon of mass destruction is a bad thing.They have been supporters of global terror and have wanted much I'll will both publicly and privately toward the west and Israel. If a deal keeps that from happening then it's a good deal.If it dosent then it's not.
Oh come on ryan, straight bullshit. This guy brought iran into the Indiana thread and you didn't say shit. This has everything to do with Israel and DONT fucken kid yourself by denying it. Who's been the most outspoken country against this deal? Israel, who came to our country crying wolf before his countries election? You're better then this and know it. The only reason israel doesn't want iran to have one is so they can throw their weight around threatening any country it wants without resistance. You know as does BS. Everybody with a 9th grade brain knows this.
Nart,your proving my point.I know how passionate and outspoken you are about the situation in Israel and your contempt for their govt is no stranger to your posts,and that's fine,it's your thing,I get that,they deserve plenty of criticism so I get it.But Ya know what so does Iran and the other countries in the region who play apart in this thing.
I just see every convo go the same way.thats all. Your a bright guy,I just don't want you(and others) to let that same anger permiate and cloud your judgement when discussing the region.Plenty of room for many opinions and angles on all issues.
If you re read my above post you will see I don't take a hard line opinion,and my opinion is not influenced by our allies in the region security concerns.They can and will act first,I have no doubt regardless of what we the USA says. Like I said.I do not want Iran to have a Nuke.In fact I'm with Brian,I don't want anyone to have anymore nukes.(No Nukes! So 70s cliche,but it made sense) We have enough of a problem policing all/any of the enriched uranium that circulates on the black market from former soviet installations and making sure it dosent get in the hands of actors who would use it against a population center in a dirty bomb.
Maybe what I am confused by is that I thought this thread was about a deal to prevent Iran from getting a nuclear weapon. That means whether you think "the deal" is good or whether you think "the deal" is bad most people, including the Obama administration, would still agree that preventing Iran from getting a nuclear weapon is the optimal result. What I have now come to realize, thanks to BB and others, is that many on here are actually not bothered at all as to whether Iran gets a bomb. They feel it is hypocritical by trying to stop them. They see Iran as fighting the good fight against an imperial and evil west. They see Iranian rhetoric as fair game as long as they continue to be a counterweight to Israel. If that is your view, fine but please don't pretend that you are interested in a deal.
I don't disagree with everything above.Taking out the personal back and forth. Many of these discussions do get turned back to Israel.One can question its relevance.Im not so sure that's needed on every issue discussed in the region. If the question is about the deal brokering between the USA and Iran ,I don't see why this had to turn into a pro/against Israel convo AGAIN !!!!! Shit it's crystal clear how some of you feel about it either way.Agree or not,every single Muslim/ Muslim country vs West issue turns into the same fucked up,go nowhere,hate filled conversation. Seriously they all take the same road and tone.broken record stuff,imo That's why I don't do too much posting on these threads. For the record Anything that lets the hard liners in Iran get closer to having their hands on a weapon of mass destruction is a bad thing.They have been supporters of global terror and have wanted much I'll will both publicly and privately toward the west and Israel. If a deal keeps that from happening then it's a good deal.If it dosent then it's not.
Oh come on ryan, straight bullshit. This guy brought iran into the Indiana thread and you didn't say shit. This has everything to do with Israel and DONT fucken kid yourself by denying it. Who's been the most outspoken country against this deal? Israel, who came to our country crying wolf before his countries election? You're better then this and know it. The only reason israel doesn't want iran to have one is so they can throw their weight around threatening any country it wants without resistance. You know as does BS. Everybody with a 9th grade brain knows this.
Nart, to some degree you do have to consider the global consensus on the Jewish population at the time of Israel's inception. Israel was birthed out of a necessarily paranoid reality that the world simply would not have Jews in their midst. Even Canada and the US had restrictive quotas on how much Jewish immigration was acceptable at the time (probably why Jews and blacks bonded quite frequently and were largely responsible for uniting to create the music of the oppressed: jazz). What was formerly reality, in the physically and politically isolated environment of Israel, has now pivoted from a legitimate state of paranoia, to the same state of paranoia - minus the legitimacy. Each attack on Jews around the world reinforces this within Israeli confines, with no ability to analyze the causality of these attacks due to the tunnel vision and fear.
Are there those who see past this within Israel and aspire to seize or maintain power? Certainly: Netanyahu's the perfect example. He's also responsible to a large degree for the very successful propaganda dissemination experiment in seeing if a population can be manipulated to believe in its own imminent existential crisis. Whether Israel is fearful or simply playing on fear (I suspect both are nearly equally represented: don't underestimate the delusions of a formerly oppressed people), either way it's very easy to see why Israel (the one exclusively Jewish state not just in the Middle East, but the world) would not wish for Iran - a country who admits from time to time that Israel ought not to be on the map anymore - to possess anything close to nuclear weaponry abilities.
At the very least - this does not have everything to do with Israel - and I think we've all thoroughly stated the Israel-related opposition to the Iranian nuclear deal here, so let's at least contemplate the other reasons this may or may not be a good idea. Israeli politics and intervention in this topic may conflate or obfuscate the issue, but it certainly isn't the exclusive factor in this decision, nor the USA's.
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Look, I'm the first to call a spade a spade when it comes to islam. I don't hide or pretend there isn't some fucked up people trying to represent my religion. And to be honest, I really don't follow my religion to closely. To me it's more about the bullshit. It drives me crazy when people can't see what's going on. Especially when I concider some of you bright and smart. Some are just straight bigots. I have zero problem with jewish people or the religion. How can I when they're basically our fellow brothers of the faith in God. What bothers me is just like in islam, you got some fucked uo people who have hijacked he jewish faith and are using it for their own propaganda.
I understand what you state ben when u talked about what else was israel supposed to do when it was created. My response and not directed at you, is so the Palestinians have to suffer for the creation of Israel? That regime has been crying wolf about iran for some 20+ years about a bomb and for nothing. And for the iran wants Israel Wiped off the map, they don't physically mean wipe them out. They want that to show palestine on the maps and no Israel because they feel like it's palestinian just like the Jews believe it's israel. No different. Everyone knows you can't physically remove Israel. Israel is here to stay just as is palestine. Now they have to find a way to exist together. If that's possible.
As always Ben says it better and clearer then anyone else.Damn
BB,do you look at the Iran issue as a Muslim issue? Because to be honest I was looking at this as countries on a map and governments and not about the demographic of its citizens.Just wanted to make sure I was clear on that. But yours and Bens last 2 posts make me think maybe that is part of the equation.Maybe it is a much bigger issue.
As always Ben says it better and clearer then anyone else.Damn
BB,do you look at the Iran issue as a Muslim issue? Because to be honest I was looking at this as countries on a map and governments and not about the demographic of its citizens.Just wanted to make sure I was clear on that. But yours and Bens last 2 posts make me think maybe that is part of the equation.Maybe it is a much bigger issue.
Tough call ryan. In a way it would seem that it's more an Arab problem then a muslim one cuz in Israel they have 2 villages of my people who are muslim and they HAVE to serve in the idf. Matter of fact, have some friends who are ex-idf. But the Arabs aren't allowed to join, I believe that to be true. So I would say more of an Arab/israeli problem. I could be wrong tho.
well what do you know.... bibi says this deal is a threat to the very existence of israel. i have been following the israel/palestine conflict for 10 years or so, and i can count on 2 hands things bibi has said are a threat to israel's existence.
After an Iranian General says destroying Israel is non-negotiable, what is Bibi supposed to say?
well maybe bibi can say "no, i am for real this time....all the other times i was lying for political gain, but this time i'm not. this deal is actually a threat to the existence of israel."
diane feinstein said it is not. i tend to respect her opinion more than bibis.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
Look, I'm the first to call a spade a spade when it comes to islam. I don't hide or pretend there isn't some fucked up people trying to represent my religion. And to be honest, I really don't follow my religion to closely. To me it's more about the bullshit. It drives me crazy when people can't see what's going on. Especially when I concider some of you bright and smart. Some are just straight bigots. I have zero problem with jewish people or the religion. How can I when they're basically our fellow brothers of the faith in God. What bothers me is just like in islam, you got some fucked uo people who have hijacked he jewish faith and are using it for their own propaganda.
I understand what you state ben when u talked about what else was israel supposed to do when it was created. My response and not directed at you, is so the Palestinians have to suffer for the creation of Israel? That regime has been crying wolf about iran for some 20+ years about a bomb and for nothing. And for the iran wants Israel Wiped off the map, they don't physically mean wipe them out. They want that to show palestine on the maps and no Israel because they feel like it's palestinian just like the Jews believe it's israel. No different. Everyone knows you can't physically remove Israel. Israel is here to stay just as is palestine. Now they have to find a way to exist together. If that's possible.
This is fantastically rational with all sincerity. The only place I would differ is that I don't think Iran (and when I say Iran I refer to the regime only and not the general population) truly cares about the plight of Palestinians other then how they can be used as pawns in their greater game of regional domination. Iran has much larger ambitions and uses the Palestinian cause as just another element in their covert expansion plans. I really believe Iran funds the worst elements of the resistance which ends up empowering the right in Israel and thereby makes future peace more difficult.
Look, I'm the first to call a spade a spade when it comes to islam. I don't hide or pretend there isn't some fucked up people trying to represent my religion. And to be honest, I really don't follow my religion to closely. To me it's more about the bullshit. It drives me crazy when people can't see what's going on. Especially when I concider some of you bright and smart. Some are just straight bigots. I have zero problem with jewish people or the religion. How can I when they're basically our fellow brothers of the faith in God. What bothers me is just like in islam, you got some fucked uo people who have hijacked he jewish faith and are using it for their own propaganda.
I understand what you state ben when u talked about what else was israel supposed to do when it was created. My response and not directed at you, is so the Palestinians have to suffer for the creation of Israel? That regime has been crying wolf about iran for some 20+ years about a bomb and for nothing. And for the iran wants Israel Wiped off the map, they don't physically mean wipe them out. They want that to show palestine on the maps and no Israel because they feel like it's palestinian just like the Jews believe it's israel. No different. Everyone knows you can't physically remove Israel. Israel is here to stay just as is palestine. Now they have to find a way to exist together. If that's possible.
Nart, my friend - I couldn't agree more about your first paragraph.
I also agree with you on your second paragraph: as I've said here before, Zionism by definition doesn't include or account for the subjugation of others for the Zionist dream to come into fruition. I find the perpetual ignoring of that byproduct offensive, and as you accurately said - a bastardization of the concept of Zionism, as well as the Jewish religion at large.
As far as your 'wiped off the map' part, I also agree with you though with a caveat. From my perspective, I don't see any long-term viable solution besides one state that does not identify as Palestinian or Jewish. In other words, by acknowledging the wrongful nature of seizure of territory by the Jewish people, it would be hypocritical to call then for the Palestinian people to take over the power position in the region. Secular governance of the region with equal representation by both cultures seems to me the only equitable way to manage the region. I believe the best-case scenario would involve the agglomeration of both Israel and Palestine as entities, though their cultures ought to live on within said secularly-run state.
To add to this, any land lost reveals an injustice and inequitable distribution of power. Jews ought to recognize this - Palestinians witness the harsh reality of this to the point where it would be impossibly hard to ignore. This is why I feel that a two-state solution simply will not be deemed acceptable - and from a moral standpoint, it's why I feel that it should not be deemed acceptable.
Post edited by benjs on
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I love you ben but give palestine $3 billion a year in aid and watch how they can govern themselves. After 60+ years, they deserve to rule themselves freely. It's a god damn shame that this is happening in this day and age. Didn't we go into Iraq to liberate the Iraqis? Why not palestine? And ben, none of this is directed at you,you know how I feel about you as a human being and that weighs more then any religion. Israel has tried its way for so long and it didn't work. It's time for something new. It wasn't that long ago what happened in gaza. It's time for all of it to stop and all of it to change.
I love you ben but give palestine $3 billion a year in aid and watch how they can govern themselves. After 60+ years, they deserve to rule themselves freely. It's a god damn shame that this is happening in this day and age. Didn't we go into Iraq to liberate the Iraqis? Why not palestine? And ben, none of this is directed at you,you know how I feel about you as a human being and that weighs more then any religion. Israel has tried its way for so long and it didn't work. It's time for something new. It wasn't that long ago what happened in gaza. It's time for all of it to stop and all of it to change.
Nart, I hear you. My concern is that a two-state solution becomes permanent, when really, that's no form of reparation for a displaced population: two fragmented pieces of a nation with an adversarial body separating them, and an acceptance of loss of right to live freely in what's probably 80% of the region, due to Israeli rule.
For the record, I take none of this personally. You know you've got my respect, and you know I want a solution and the end of all of this shit as much as you do.
I second my friend's apologies for veering off topic
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Comments
Even the bat shit craziest of dictators don't want to start a nuclear war. They want them to make their penis seem bigger.
Second-strike retaliation protocols from the US and Israel are also definite deterrents from actually using nuclear weapons in effect.
This is all just food for thought, and I'd be naive to claim to know the true intentions of the Iranian nuclear program (i.e. nuclear power, nuclear bombs for power position, nuclear bombs for potential for destruction), but I think that's really the first question. If this is a game of 'whose balls are bigger' and nothing more, or if this is like the cop who stretches so that it reveals his firearms for no purpose but to induce fear, then the question of the right to develop a bomb is neither here nor there. Ultimately, no one but the Iranian government can say whether this is for real or for show.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Many of these discussions do get turned back to Israel.One can question its relevance.Im not so sure that's needed on every issue discussed in the region.
If the question is about the deal brokering between the USA and Iran ,I don't see why this had to turn into a pro/against Israel convo AGAIN !!!!!
Shit it's crystal clear how some of you feel about it either way.Agree or not,every single Muslim/ Muslim country vs West issue turns into the same fucked up,go nowhere,hate filled conversation.
Seriously they all take the same road and tone.broken record stuff,imo That's why I don't do too much posting on these threads.
For the record Anything that lets the hard liners in Iran get closer to having their hands on a weapon of mass destruction is a bad thing.They have been supporters of global terror and have wanted much I'll will both publicly and privately toward the west and Israel.
If a deal keeps that from happening then it's a good deal.If it dosent then it's not.
I don't think Iran is a "death cult" as BS states, I think that is an ignorant catch phrase touted by the right that ignores reality. If Iran was a death cult, you would think they would be engaged in a real war, and not just be imitating the US by playing empire, funding terrorism and attempting to overthrow populist governments... That's not a death cult, that is more like cosmopolitan politics.
Would Iran consign it's entire population to death to destroy Israel? I find that incredibly hard to believe.
I would rather not see any more nukes, and I hope this deal is on the up so we can slow them down and buy time for diplomacy and for modernization to squeeze fanaticism out.
Yes, Israel is tied to this issue tightly, but I think RR's point about the way the conversation degrades around Israel is valid.
In my opinion, it's always better to be on speaking terms, with your enemies, than act aggressively towards them out of fear. If we close the road of diplomacy and start acting aggressively, Iran is damn right to build a nuclear missile...
"The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed".- Carl Jung.
"Art does not reproduce what we see; rather, it makes us see."- Paul Klee
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
http://www.timesofisrael.com/iran-militia-chief-destroying-israel-nonnegotiable/
I just see every convo go the same way.thats all.
Your a bright guy,I just don't want you(and others) to let that same anger permiate and cloud your judgement when discussing the region.Plenty of room for many opinions and angles on all issues.
If you re read my above post you will see I don't take a hard line opinion,and my opinion is not influenced by our allies in the region security concerns.They can and will act first,I have no doubt regardless of what we the USA says.
Like I said.I do not want Iran to have a Nuke.In fact I'm with Brian,I don't want anyone to have anymore nukes.(No Nukes! So 70s cliche,but it made sense)
We have enough of a problem policing all/any of the enriched uranium that circulates on the black market from former soviet installations and making sure it dosent get in the hands of actors who would use it against a population center in a dirty bomb.
Are there those who see past this within Israel and aspire to seize or maintain power? Certainly: Netanyahu's the perfect example. He's also responsible to a large degree for the very successful propaganda dissemination experiment in seeing if a population can be manipulated to believe in its own imminent existential crisis. Whether Israel is fearful or simply playing on fear (I suspect both are nearly equally represented: don't underestimate the delusions of a formerly oppressed people), either way it's very easy to see why Israel (the one exclusively Jewish state not just in the Middle East, but the world) would not wish for Iran - a country who admits from time to time that Israel ought not to be on the map anymore - to possess anything close to nuclear weaponry abilities.
At the very least - this does not have everything to do with Israel - and I think we've all thoroughly stated the Israel-related opposition to the Iranian nuclear deal here, so let's at least contemplate the other reasons this may or may not be a good idea. Israeli politics and intervention in this topic may conflate or obfuscate the issue, but it certainly isn't the exclusive factor in this decision, nor the USA's.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
I understand what you state ben when u talked about what else was israel supposed to do when it was created. My response and not directed at you, is so the Palestinians have to suffer for the creation of Israel? That regime has been crying wolf about iran for some 20+ years about a bomb and for nothing. And for the iran wants Israel
Wiped off the map, they don't physically mean wipe them out. They want that to show palestine on the maps and no Israel because they feel like it's palestinian just like the Jews believe it's israel. No different. Everyone knows you can't physically remove Israel. Israel is here to stay just as is palestine. Now they have to find a way to exist together. If that's possible.
BB,do you look at the Iran issue as a Muslim issue?
Because to be honest I was looking at this as countries on a map and governments and not about the demographic of its citizens.Just wanted to make sure I was clear on that.
But yours and Bens last 2 posts make me think maybe that is part of the equation.Maybe it is a much bigger issue.
well maybe bibi can say "no, i am for real this time....all the other times i was lying for political gain, but this time i'm not. this deal is actually a threat to the existence of israel."
diane feinstein said it is not. i tend to respect her opinion more than bibis.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
I also agree with you on your second paragraph: as I've said here before, Zionism by definition doesn't include or account for the subjugation of others for the Zionist dream to come into fruition. I find the perpetual ignoring of that byproduct offensive, and as you accurately said - a bastardization of the concept of Zionism, as well as the Jewish religion at large.
As far as your 'wiped off the map' part, I also agree with you though with a caveat. From my perspective, I don't see any long-term viable solution besides one state that does not identify as Palestinian or Jewish. In other words, by acknowledging the wrongful nature of seizure of territory by the Jewish people, it would be hypocritical to call then for the Palestinian people to take over the power position in the region. Secular governance of the region with equal representation by both cultures seems to me the only equitable way to manage the region. I believe the best-case scenario would involve the agglomeration of both Israel and Palestine as entities, though their cultures ought to live on within said secularly-run state.
To add to this, any land lost reveals an injustice and inequitable distribution of power. Jews ought to recognize this - Palestinians witness the harsh reality of this to the point where it would be impossibly hard to ignore. This is why I feel that a two-state solution simply will not be deemed acceptable - and from a moral standpoint, it's why I feel that it should not be deemed acceptable.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
For the record, I take none of this personally. You know you've got my respect, and you know I want a solution and the end of all of this shit as much as you do.
I second my friend's apologies for veering off topic
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1